KW Clubsport on Track

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

So 799/856 lbf/in (rear c/o) spring rates with stock ASBs or aftermarket ASBs? It’s very interesting how the Nitron R3 spring rates fall in line with spring rates used by other high-end dampers whereas OGSM & IL rates (700/400 lbf/in, rear c/o equivalent) are very different. Not doubting Jason’s setup skills and COTA lap times but spring rate comparisons are odd.

Is the harshness dominated by the front or rear or both? Does it feel like the compressive blow-off valve (CBOV) isn’t absorbing large bumps as well as the MCS remote CBOV?

What is ASB?
The harshness is dominated by the rear, although I also notice the front is harsher compared to my MCS with same spring rate.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

What is ASB?
The harshness is dominated by the rear, although I also notice the front is harsher compared to my MCS with same spring rate.

Sorry…anti-roll bar.

I’m just curious, is the Schirmer R3 spec’ed with remote reservoirs or piggyback reservoirs?

I have a suspicion that the harshness is likely due to the CBOV. I’m also wondering if the Nitron damping curves are heavily rebound biased which is when the rebound damping is much higher than the compression damping at the same piston velocity (e.g., the rebound damping is 3x the compression damping at 4 in/s).

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sorry…anti-roll bar.

I’m just curious, is the Schirmer R3 spec’ed with remote reservoirs or piggyback reservoirs?

I have a suspicion that the harshness is likely due to the CBOV. I’m also wondering if the Nitron damping curves are heavily rebound biased which is when the rebound damping is much higher than the compression damping at the same piston velocity (e.g., the rebound damping is 3x the compression damping at 4 in/s).

Aftermarket ASB!
As if the rebound was harsh, correct.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Aftermarket ASB!
As if the rebound was harsh, correct.

I just noticed I had incorrectly typed ASB = anti-roll bar when it should’ve been anti-sway bar

So the CBOV does a good job of absorbing the bump load but on the rebound cycle it feels overly harsh? I’m sure you’ve done this but I’ll ask anyway - have you tried reducing the R damping? Are you going to run the same spring rates you’re currently running on the f82/f87 (can’t recall which one you installed the MCS 3WR on)? If you had to guess, would you say the e92 M front unsprung mass is heavier or lighter or similar to the f82/f87? Same question about the rear - is the e92 M rear unsprung mass heavier or lighter or similar to the f82/f87? I know my answers so I’m interested if we feel the same thing. Heavier unsprung mass requires more acceleration (Gs) to force the tire to remain in contact with the road surface.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sorry…anti-roll bar.

I’m just curious, is the Schirmer R3 spec’ed with remote reservoirs or piggyback reservoirs?

I have a suspicion that the harshness is likely due to the CBOV. I’m also wondering if the Nitron damping curves are heavily rebound biased which is when the rebound damping is much higher than the compression damping at the same piston velocity (e.g., the rebound damping is 3x the compression damping at 4 in/s).

could it be that OGSM specced Nitrons (mine are 120/140 "700/800", or the 700/1000 option) use less rear spring to compensate for the rear rebound bias? not sure if this is a shot in the dark though.

ty @Track/S though for your review on the Schirmer R3!

edit again: the only person I know with OGSM R3 is omgzirra_exe - maybe Alex can weigh in on this?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

could it be that OGSM specced Nitrons (mine are 120/140 "700/800", or the 700/1000 option) use less rear spring to compensate for the rear rebound bias? not sure if this is a shot in the dark though.

ty @Track/S though for your review on the Schirmer R3!

edit again: the only person I know with OGSM R3 is omgzirra_exe - maybe Alex can weigh in on this?

What do you mean by rear rebound bias? Are you referring to a damper that has more rebound damping than compression damping at the same piston velocity?

Spring rates define the balance of the car when it’s cornering without damping (after LSC/R damp out the chassis roll motion) where you have a smooth corner entry, mid corner and corner exit that produces no piston rod relative velocity; e.g., think of a long cloverleaf corner getting on/off a highway with zero bumps. That’s steady-state cornering and the balance the car is defined by the spring rates, sway bars, track widths, etc.. Basically, it’s defined by all mechanical elements, primarily the main spring rates, with no damping forces applied. I’ve tried all possible combinations of front 600-900 lbf/in and rear 800-1200 lbf/in. I found the best combination (all are rear divorced setups) to be 700/1100 lbf/in. 600/800 and 700/800 lbf/in had too much understeer. A good example would be at VIR exiting the Uphill Esses and before the left hander at South Bend where the car just wouldn’t turn in (rest of the Uphill Esses wasn’t great, too) or you couldn’t carry the speed. Other examples are Oak Tree and the back straight braking into the Roller Coaster, and NASCAR Bend to Left hook. Summit Point Main Turns 3, 4, most of 9 and 10. At the other extreme, 600/1200 lbf/in had too much oversteer. 600/1000 and 700/1100 lbf/in felt good but 700/1100 lbf/in provided a bit more driver confidence. BW’s recommendation early on for the f8x was 600/900 lbf/in. Reservoir pressures were also varied between 150 psi to 200 psi, settled on 150 psi at all corners. For my e92 M3 with MCS 2WR, I settled on 600/1000 lbf/in for the best balance. E46 M3 with Moton 2-way remote, I ended up at 750/1100 lbf/in.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bipp

could it be that OGSM specced Nitrons (mine are 120/140 "700/800", or the 700/1000 option) use less rear spring to compensate for the rear rebound bias? not sure if this is a shot in the dark though.

ty @Track/S though for your review on the Schirmer R3!

edit again: the only person I know with OGSM R3 is omgzirra_exe - maybe Alex can weigh in on this?

I don't know anything, i just park my car in a shared apartment garage and at work.

I have F: 800lbs and R: 400lbs the rears are coilovers, not divorced.

this shit understeers on slow speed, but the turn in is great lol super responsive. honestly NOT the greatest on a canyon road set up, since those are more slow mechanical grip situations, but the sections that are high speed, very stable and responsive. this is all i have for "experience"

IMO at buttonwillow i can probably just lessen the front rebound and compression a bit. since its pretty slow section for the first sector. from T1 to T5 once you get pass grapevine it's pretty fast.

The set up was my decision btw.

again i wouldn't know yet since I'm Newley wed and have no life now on track.

maybe i'll add a FSB and leave it on the softest setting kek.

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

What do you mean by rear rebound bias? Are you referring to a damper that has more rebound damping than compression damping at the same piston velocity?

Spring rates define the balance of the car when it’s cornering without damping (after LSC/R damp out the chassis roll motion) where you have a smooth corner entry, mid corner and corner exit that produces no piston rod relative velocity; e.g., think of a long cloverleaf corner getting on/off a highway with zero bumps. That’s steady-state cornering and the balance the car is defined by the spring rates, sway bars, track widths, etc.. Basically, it’s defined by all mechanical elements, primarily the main spring rates, with no damping forces applied. I’ve tried all possible combinations of front 600-900 lbf/in and rear 800-1200 lbf/in. I found the best combination (all are rear divorced setups) to be 700/1100 lbf/in. 600/800 and 700/800 lbf/in had too much understeer. A good example would be at VIR exiting the Uphill Esses and before the left hander at South Bend where the car just wouldn’t turn in (rest of the Uphill Esses wasn’t great, too) or you couldn’t carry the speed. Other examples are Oak Tree and the back straight braking into the Roller Coaster, and NASCAR Bend to Left hook. Summit Point Main Turns 3, 4, most of 9 and 10. At the other extreme, 600/1200 lbf/in had too much oversteer. 600/1000 and 700/1100 lbf/in felt good but 700/1100 lbf/in provided a bit more driver confidence. BW’s recommendation early on for the f8x was 600/900 lbf/in. Reservoir pressures were also varied between 150 psi to 200 psi, settled on 150 psi at all corners. For my e92 M3 with MCS 2WR, I settled on 600/1000 lbf/in for the best balance. E46 M3 with Moton 2-way remote, I ended up at 750/1100 lbf/in.

NOT GONNA LIE BUD, I LIKE YOU, BUT THIS MADE ME LOSE SOME BRAIN CELLS TRYING TO READ IT.

For what its worth my ORIGINAL 1 way set up was 600F/900R and it was more of a "street" set up, but it was very good for steady state cornering as you mentioned.

i don't know shit about 3 ways so I'm not going to say anything else that i already didn't mention LOL.

i just want to sound cool in a parking lot.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I just noticed I had incorrectly typed ASB = anti-roll bar when it should’ve been anti-sway bar

So the CBOV does a good job of absorbing the bump load but on the rebound cycle it feels overly harsh? I’m sure you’ve done this but I’ll ask anyway - have you tried reducing the R damping? Are you going to run the same spring rates you’re currently running on the f82/f87 (can’t recall which one you installed the MCS 3WR on)? If you had to guess, would you say the e92 M front unsprung mass is heavier or lighter or similar to the f82/f87? Same question about the rear - is the e92 M rear unsprung mass heavier or lighter or similar to the f82/f87? I know my answers so I’m interested if we feel the same thing. Heavier unsprung mass requires more acceleration (Gs) to force the tire to remain in contact with the road surface.

Front:
Rebound 3 clicks, LS 2 clicks, HS 4 clicks.

Rear:
Rebound 2 clicks, LS 1 click, HS 2 clicks.


As you can see, I'm using almost the minimum number of clicks, so there's nothing else to do.

Today I tested the car better, it's not going too bad, but there's little grip at the rear.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

I don't know anything, i just park my car in a shared apartment garage and at work.

I have F: 800lbs and R: 400lbs the rears are coilovers, not divorced.

A 400 lbf/in coilover rear has a very soft wheel rate. The damper motion ratio is around 0.82 so the coilover spring wheel rate is:
WR_damper_rear = SR_damper x MR_damper^2 = 400 x 0.82^2 = 269 lbf/in

WR_strut_front_damper = 800 x 0.96^2 = 737 lbf/in

Compare this to your original setup of 600/900 lbf/in (divorced?)

WR_divorced_rear = 900 x 0.62^2 = 346 lbf/in

WR_strut_front_divorced = 600 x 0.96^2 = 553 lbf/in

So comparing the strut and c/o rear the wheel rates are 737/269 lbf/in whereas the strut and divorced rear wheel rates are 553/346 lbf/in - handling balance should by very different. Unless the R3 is running a very high rear gas pressure and a low front gas pressure, which only applies in compression, the 269 lbf/in WR is soft in rebound and has a much higher front strut WR of 737 lbf/in. Front and rear sprung frequencies for both setups are very different.


this shit understeers on slow speed, but the turn in is great lol super responsive. honestly NOT the greatest on a canyon road set up, since those are more slow mechanical grip situations, but the sections that are high speed, very stable and responsive. this is all i have for "experience"

The handling balance should be the same on the street and track.

IMO at buttonwillow i can probably just lessen the front rebound and compression a bit. since its pretty slow section for the first sector. from T1 to T5 once you get pass grapevine it's pretty fast.

The set up was my decision btw.

again i wouldn't know yet since I'm Newley wed and have no life now on track.

maybe i'll add a FSB and leave it on the softest setting kek.



NOT GONNA LIE BUD, I LIKE YOU, BUT THIS MADE ME LOSE SOME BRAIN CELLS TRYING TO READ IT.

Sorry! Was just trying to describe how various spring rate combinations affected steady-state balance. I ended up at 700/1100 lbf/in which has WR of 646/423 lbf/in - higher rear WR relative to front WR. I played with reservoir pressure between 150-175 psi and preferred the slightly more compressive compliance at 150-200 psi. May raise it to 175 psi at VIR. Definitely would not go above 200 psi with my current setup.


For what its worth my ORIGINAL 1 way set up was 600F/900R and it was more of a "street" set up, but it was very good for steady state cornering as you mentioned.

i don't know shit about 3 ways so I'm not going to say anything else that i already didn't mention LOL.

i just want to sound cool in a parking lot.

FYI, to be clear, I have not stated the OGSM/IL Nitron setups are not setup properly. I’m just trying to understand the differences in spring rates between the R3 and other remote reservoir setups.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

FYI, to be clear, I have not stated the OGSM/IL Nitron setups are not setup properly. I’m just trying to understand the differences in spring rates between the R3 and other remote reservoir setups.

nah its fine. i only have the R3 because my R1 was cooked so i sent that to get rebuilt.

with that said, i wont know if my "set up" that i came up with is a good set up or not and i don't know until i actually full send it on track, since most of my driving is short canyon commutes that are slow speed relatively, easily fixable though, respectfully, as of right now I'm not touching anything, and that includes reservoir pressure.

side note: Frequency is what matters mostly to be honest!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

nah its fine. i only have the R3 because my R1 was cooked so i sent that to get rebuilt.

with that said, i wont know if my "set up" that i came up with is a good set up or not and i don't know until i actually full send it on track, since most of my driving is short canyon commutes that are slow speed relatively, easily fixable though, respectfully, as of right now I'm not touching anything, and that includes reservoir pressure.

side note: Frequency is what matters mostly to be honest!

If frequencies mattered then we’d all be running flat-ride setups! I find the higher front frequency than rear frequency has much better performance. Plus high-end dampers can handle the rear pitch motion as if it’s not there. Inferior dampers would have the rear pitching up and down continuously.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Front:
Rebound 3 clicks, LS 2 clicks, HS 4 clicks.

Rear:
Rebound 2 clicks, LS 1 click, HS 2 clicks.


As you can see, I'm using almost the minimum number of clicks, so there's nothing else to do.

Today I tested the car better, it's not going too bad, but there's little grip at the rear.

Interesting. You are practically speaking out of damping adjustments. I wonder if you dropped the rear rate by 200 lbf/in would help improve rear grip? If Schirmer’s reputation is accurate then you’d expect them to have an out-of-the-box Nitron setup requiring a little fine tuning here and there. Sounds like they’ve missed the target for the e92 M3!

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

So 799/856 lbf/in (rear c/o) spring rates with stock ASBs or aftermarket ASBs? It’s very interesting how the Nitron R3 spring rates fall in line with spring rates used by other high-end dampers whereas OGSM & IL rates (700/400 lbf/in, rear c/o equivalent) are very different. Not doubting Jason’s setup skills and COTA lap times but spring rate comparisons are odd.

Is the harshness dominated by the front or rear or both? Does it feel like the compressive blow-off valve (CBOV) isn’t absorbing large bumps as well as the MCS remote CBOV?

Do you think most performance shops are doing a lot of on car testing, tuning, and revalving, or using theoretical values via calculations.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Interesting. You are practically speaking out of damping adjustments. I wonder if you dropped the rear rate by 200 lbf/in would help improve rear grip? If Schirmer’s reputation is accurate then you’d expect them to have an out-of-the-box Nitron setup requiring a little fine tuning here and there. Sounds like they’ve missed the target for the e92 M3!

I'm sure it would go better with softer rear springs.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Do you think most performance shops are doing a lot of on car testing, tuning, and revalving, or using theoretical values via calculations.

A lot of it depends on the type of shop. I’d say most of the vendors on this forum that offer high-end suspensions do not do any real testing. It’s all about getting the best prices from them. Race shops like BW (MCS), 3DM (OhlinsTTX) and OGSM (Nitron) absolutely do testing and develop/fine tune the suspension packages they offer. I’d say it’s probably two out of ten parts vendors that benefit from customers buying and using parts on track that would then refine what they offer based on customer input only, no real testing, but five out of ten race shops that gain experience from racing and through further testing the same parts they sell customers, and the remaining five out of ten race shops that only base it on their race setups, no fine tuning or development of street and track packages.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

I don't know anything, i just park my car in a shared apartment garage and at work.

I have F: 800lbs and R: 400lbs the rears are coilovers, not divorced.

this shit understeers on slow speed, but the turn in is great lol super responsive. honestly NOT the greatest on a canyon road set up, since those are more slow mechanical grip situations, but the sections that are high speed, very stable and responsive. this is all i have for "experience"

IMO at buttonwillow i can probably just lessen the front rebound and compression a bit. since its pretty slow section for the first sector. from T1 to T5 once you get pass grapevine it's pretty fast.

The set up was my decision btw.

again i wouldn't know yet since I'm Newley wed and have no life now on track.

maybe i'll add a FSB and leave it on the softest setting kek.

honestly as someone that spends more time shitposting on the track discord than actually driving my car i can relate to your use case. definitely good to know though. assuming (especially at your spring rates) that you find the dampening liveable.

i've been seeing OG Shark ads on IG but he needs to step up it so the kids at the local mountain road skidpad knows i'm the top dog with OGSM nitrons. (jk, jk)

NOT GONNA LIE BUD, I LIKE YOU, BUT THIS MADE ME LOSE SOME BRAIN CELLS TRYING TO READ IT.

LOL

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

What do you mean by rear rebound bias? Are you referring to a damper that has more rebound damping than compression damping at the same piston velocity?

Spring rates define the balance of the car when it’s cornering without damping (after LSC/R damp out the chassis roll motion) where you have a smooth corner entry, mid corner and corner exit that produces no piston rod relative velocity; e.g., think of a long cloverleaf corner getting on/off a highway with zero bumps. That’s steady-state cornering and the balance the car is defined by the spring rates, sway bars, track widths, etc.. Basically, it’s defined by all mechanical elements, primarily the main spring rates, with no damping forces applied. I’ve tried all possible combinations of front 600-900 lbf/in and rear 800-1200 lbf/in. I found the best combination (all are rear divorced setups) to be 700/1100 lbf/in. 600/800 and 700/800 lbf/in had too much understeer. A good example would be at VIR exiting the Uphill Esses and before the left hander at South Bend where the car just wouldn’t turn in (rest of the Uphill Esses wasn’t great, too) or you couldn’t carry the speed. Other examples are Oak Tree and the back straight braking into the Roller Coaster, and NASCAR Bend to Left hook. Summit Point Main Turns 3, 4, most of 9 and 10. At the other extreme, 600/1200 lbf/in had too much oversteer. 600/1000 and 700/1100 lbf/in felt good but 700/1100 lbf/in provided a bit more driver confidence. BW’s recommendation early on for the f8x was 600/900 lbf/in. Reservoir pressures were also varied between 150 psi to 200 psi, settled on 150 psi at all corners. For my e92 M3 with MCS 2WR, I settled on 600/1000 lbf/in for the best balance. E46 M3 with Moton 2-way remote, I ended up at 750/1100 lbf/in.

in my defense i was quite concussed when i wrote that message but anyways - previously you mentioned rebound bias in nitron -> the issue seemed to be over "stiffness" as a general statement in the rear -> lower spring rates might compensate for that? that was my initial thought anyways.

in any case i have actually summed up my spending over the past few months on my car (ap racing bbk, bbs wheels, various bushings, sway bars) and realized that 3 ways are definitely not in my near future if i want to maintain any sort of financial responsibility. i will, however, continue armchair discussions on the forums with people who actually have these setups until i pick up a set in a year or two years or whenever that may be. jokes aside, very useful to hear about your guys' experiences - i feel like it's difficult to get a feel for if something is a good fit from just vendor discussions, and user reviews help a lot.

Track/S - any desire to pick up a 3DM Ohlins TTX for further comparison? partially joking, but your nitron r3 vs mcs 3w vs kw comparison puts you at the single forum member who has actually had driving comparison in all of the "top shelf" kits.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by bipp

honestly as someone that spends more time shitposting on the track discord than actually driving my car i can relate to your use case. definitely good to know though. assuming (especially at your spring rates) that you find the dampening liveable.

yeah it's takes to long for me to set up stuff i just don't have time and when i have time i just don't care cause i just want to drive lol.

I can just drop the car off at my friends and him set it up, but that's $$ and time i don't have.

right now I'm just doing small adjustments every weekend, and driving the canyon to my office at 5am the whole week...to test it out and see how it reacts to the changes. short canyon drive though, nothing crazy.

but for driving on street it's not bad, it's within my comfort level.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

in my defense i was quite concussed when i wrote that message but anyways - previously you mentioned rebound bias in nitron -> the issue seemed to be over "stiffness" as a general statement in the rear -> lower spring rates might compensate for that? that was my initial thought anyways.

in any case i have actually summed up my spending over the past few months on my car (ap racing bbk, bbs wheels, various bushings, sway bars) and realized that 3 ways are definitely not in my near future if i want to maintain any sort of financial responsibility. i will, however, continue armchair discussions on the forums with people who actually have these setups until i pick up a set in a year or two years or whenever that may be. jokes aside, very useful to hear about your guys' experiences - i feel like it's difficult to get a feel for if something is a good fit from just vendor discussions, and user reviews help a lot.

Track/S - any desire to pick up a 3DM Ohlins TTX for further comparison? partially joking, but your nitron r3 vs mcs 3w vs kw comparison puts you at the single forum member who has actually had driving comparison in all of the "top shelf" kits.

I remember discussing rebound bias but I think I was asking if the Nitron R3 is rebound bias. I have not seen R3 damper force vs. velocity curves.

STOP THAT!!! You’re not supposed to go back and sum up the costs of all track parts! Most of us would not be here if we did

Understood. Until you actually get behind the wheel, it’s impossible to truly understand how high-end dampers feel and perform.

LOL. Why stop at the Ohlins TTX? We should throw in Moton, Penske, JRZ Motorsport 14 series…

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by bipp

Track/S - any desire to pick up a 3DM Ohlins TTX for further comparison? partially joking, but your nitron r3 vs mcs 3w vs kw comparison puts you at the single forum member who has actually had driving comparison in all of the "top shelf" kits.

At the moment I am very happy with the MCS 3way, but I would like to try TTX to see the differences.
And I'm also curious about MOTON.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

At the moment I am very happy with the MCS 3way, but I would like to try TTX to see the differences.
And I'm also curious about MOTON.

MCS was formed by key members of Moton when AST bought Moton. The Moton 2-way remotes on my e46 M3 perform similar to my MCS 2WR setups. MCS 2WR have a much wider damping range (much wider selection of spring rates before needing to revalve), finer resolution in damping adjustments, far superior compression blow-off valve, improved heat resistance, higher remote reservoir gas pressure range, no harshness (Moton has a small, albeit barely noticeable in most cases, harshness), and superior street ability. Basically, the MCS feels like a grown up, wider operational window, and refined Moton. I’d recommend trying Intrax 4-Way with ARC (anti-roll control which controls roll and pitch motion with softer springs similar to a McLaren 720s but the Intrax dampers are not connected hydraulically like they are on the 720s) and their Black Titan coating. Similar to the JRZ Motorsport 14 4-way, Intrax independently adjusts LSC, HSC, R and the overall range of LSC (widen or shorten the LSC velocity range). I can send you their current price sheet if you are interested.

[bipp]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I remember discussing rebound bias but I think I was asking if the Nitron R3 is rebound bias. I have not seen R3 damper force vs. velocity curves.

STOP THAT!!! You’re not supposed to go back and sum up the costs of all track parts! Most of us would not be here if we did

Understood. Until you actually get behind the wheel, it’s impossible to truly understand how high-end dampers feel and perform.

LOL. Why stop at the Ohlins TTX? We should throw in Moton, Penske, JRZ Motorsport 14 series…

yeah may as well try em all :P primarily personally biased in hearing about the 3DM TTX just because it's one of the more easily accessible US-based options, which might be a totally different story across the pond for Track/S though...

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by bipp

yeah may as well try em all :P primarily personally biased in hearing about the 3DM TTX just because it's one of the more easily accessible US-based options, which might be a totally different story across the pond for Track/S though...

I doubt there’s a problem procuring TTX in Europe; however, it would not be the 3DM TTX version. Are you positive 3DM developed their own TTX setup for the f8x? I believe Ohlins has an OTS TTX setup for the f8x.