6MT or DCT?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

You're modulating a throttle that is only a "rheostat" that sends an electronic signal to the engine that has all sorts of electronic filters and dampers that automatically modify your input. The clutch you are "modulating" is damped through hydraulic means, so that modulation is partially automated. The shifter you are moving automatically synchronizes the speeds of the gears so that the dogs and gears can engage without human intervention.

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

Why yes - yes I can. My M doesn't do that automatically in Sport + because it just doesn't, and doesn't do that in Sport or Comfort because it can be coded out. So that silly argument is a wasted point.

I learned to heal and toe in the 80s - my mother had 5 brothers, and 4 of them were racing drivers. Used to drive Lolas, Brabhams etc and I've seen pictures of them on the grid with Jackie Stewart and other famous names from those days - so I presume they knew what they were doing, and taught me properly.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You're modulating a throttle that is only a "rheostat" that sends an electronic signal to the engine that has all sorts of electronic filters and dampers that automatically modify your input. The clutch you are "modulating" is damped through hydraulic means, so that modulation is partially automated. The shifter you are moving automatically synchronizes the speeds of the gears so that the dogs and gears can engage without human intervention.

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

That doesnt mean you can't Fck it up if you dont do it right, or create better result if you do.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's not that black and white. Folks focus too much on the controls (pedal and shifter vs paddle) and not enough on what is happening behind the scene .

VERY TRUE.

Because, what you do with the controls is the MANUAL part - i.e. the pedal(s - more than one if you're doing it properly) and shifter is rather manual, as opposed to the paddle which is akin to using the blinker.

The AUTOMATIC part is happening behind the scenes - which is 99% of what happens with a DCT. Sure there are assistant devices for the MT - but there's 100 times as much manual input as there is for a DCT.

I don't know why DCT drivers can't accept that there's a big difference, and just not try to claim that "its much the same as driving a manual". That's like saying pressing the button on your wife's vibrator is much the same as having sex with her... it's just not.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by landshark99

The only real difference is the use your foot instead of the computer to activate the clutch. Shifting paddles and deciding the gear selection is very similar to shifting the manual shift lever

Yes - very similar if you consider PlayStation to be the same as a real car! Clicking a button on the steering wheel != coordinating pressing a pedal or two and shifting a lever!

Originally Posted by landshark99

modulating the gas pedal is almost exactly the same

Really? I thought the big benefit of the DCT is you don't have to do a damned thing with the throttle - don't lift off on upshifts at all, and it auto-rev-matches for you on downshifts. So you don't modulate anything.

Originally Posted by landshark99

the difference is how the clutches work

Yes. Which in the DCT they work automatically for you. In the manual, you manually control the clutch.

[F83]

Ok ok, we are getting very close to where we need to drop trousers and break out the measurement tape.

[Sassicaia]

What I find interesting is that you dont see many people arguing that a manual is like DCT, but you do see lots saying DCT is like manual.

Its almost like some people who own DCT want it to be manual, but on the other hand you dont get the feeling many people with own a manual want it to be like a DCT.

I could be wrong, but its an interesting observation Ive noticed. There seems to be a lot of defensiveness that "DCT is like a manual!!!@@!".

Why?

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by F83

Ok ok, we are getting very close to where we need to drop trousers and break out the measurement tape.

You're missing the point... it's not about which is better - the DCT is (and I ordered a 6MT). Without a doubt the DCT is "the" transmission of the future, but some of us old dogs just love stirring the gears by hand.

It's about the DCT drivers saying "it's just like driving a manual". It's not. It gives you manual control, but equally it's "just like driving a steptronic automatic" - only the responsiveness is better. But that better responsiveness does not make it anything remotely close to like "driving a manual". It makes it "like having manual control over an automatically controlled manual gearbox".

For every DCT driver who says "my transmission is better" <- Respect.

For every DCT driver who claims "just like driving a manual" <- Idiot.

That's it in a nutshell for me. It's the same as FADEC in aviation - 1 single "power" control replaces the throttle, mixture and pitch controls. Trying to equate the 2 as being the same is just nonsense.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

What I find interesting is that you dont see many people arguing that a manual is like DCT, but you do see lots saying DCT is like manual.

Its almost like some people who own DCT want it to be manual, but on the other hand you dont get the feeling many people with own a manual want it to be like a DCT.

I could be wrong, but its an interesting observation Ive noticed. There seems to be a lot of defensiveness that "DCT is like a manual!!!@@!".

Why?

I've said the same before, and I think it's from people who were manual drivers, but are scared of that stigma of driving an automatic which is how 99% of people view DCT. Yes - they are leaps and bounds ahead of automatics, and totally different under the hood - but 99% of passengers will never know the difference, and I think some DCT owners who came from and loved manuals (or perhaps like me they just actively hate automatics!) and feel the need to defend their choice by trying to equate them to be the same thing.

[F83]

Originally Posted by dinonz

You're missing the point... it's not about which is better - the DCT is (and I ordered a 6MT). Without a doubt the DCT is "the" transmission of the future, but some of us old dogs just love stirring the gears by hand.

It's about the DCT drivers saying "it's just like driving a manual". It's not. It gives you manual control, but equally it's "just like driving a steptronic automatic" - only the responsiveness is better. But that better responsiveness does not make it anything remotely close to like "driving a manual". It makes it "like having manual control over an automatically controlled manual gearbox".

For every DCT driver who says "my transmission is better" <- Respect.

For every DCT driver who claims "just like driving a manual" <- Idiot.

That's it in a nutshell for me. It's the same as FADEC in aviation - 1 single "power" control replaces the throttle, mixture and pitch controls. Trying to equate the 2 as being the same is just nonsense.

Well I do agree with you. It's just that the conversation is stalled and is in circles.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by F83

Well I do agree with you. It's just that the conversation is stalled and is in circles.

Yeah - but that's what forums are about

[Bluex]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

no deflection. I have driven DCT enough to know. Maybe 2 hours worth? Dont need more then that. Id say you wouldnt need more then a few hours driving manual either to know that DCT is essentially automatic in "manual" mode compared to a true manual transition.

Not really interested in getting involved in this, but one point: 2 hours on DCT is not enough.

There are threads littered with people that haven't learned how to properly drive DCT and modulate throttle. Check it out, there are people bucking their cars like a mechanical bull.

Believe it or not, there actually is a learning curve

Just sayin'

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Bluex

2 hours on DCT is not enough.

Yeah. A test drive was not enough for me to plunk down an extra $2900 on something I figured would probably piss me off over time. It annoyed me in D mode even on the test drive - changed down when it just didn't have to - the engine had the torque to just smoothly pull away. That's my main beef with automatics too - they just do dumb shit when I don't want them to. At least with a 6MT, 100% of the dumb shit is my fault.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by Bluex

Not really interested in getting involved in this, but one point: 2 hours on DCT is not enough.

There are threads littered with people that haven't learned how to properly drive DCT and modulate throttle. Check it out, there are people bucking their cars like a mechanical bull.

Believe it or not, there actually is a learning curve

Just sayin'

Its enough to know its a version of automatic and not close to manual.

I might not have mastered it, but I know what it is.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I've said the same before, and I think it's from people who were manual drivers, but are scared of that stigma of driving an automatic which is how 99% of people view DCT. Yes - they are leaps and bounds ahead of automatics, and totally different under the hood - but 99% of passengers will never know the difference, and I think some DCT owners who came from and loved manuals (or perhaps like me they just actively hate automatics!) and feel the need to defend their choice by trying to equate them to be the same thing.

I am not remotely concerned with the "stigma" of driving an "automatic"

I think a certain amount of the appeal of a DCT is that it is "Not really an automatic". IMO any transmission that can be driven in fully automatic mode is by definition an automatic transmission. Although they are very different internally the driver interface between the Steptronic and the DCT is very similar. Dare I say almost identical?

IMO the DCT is not leaps and bounds ahead of "traditional" automatics. I have driven my DCT M4 back to back with a Jaguar XF-R which has an aggressively tuned ZF 8 Speed automatic. The ZF was very impressive and certainly not leaps and bounds behind the DCT in my M.

A few years ago I participated in the "Jaguar Heritage Tour" at Monticello Motorsports Park". Participants drove various Jaguars (I chose an XKR) on the rounds surrounding the track and then on the track itself. We also got hot laps around the track with professional racing drivers (I drove and then rode with Davy Jones). When I was waiting for my turn another participant finished his laps and when he got out of the car he said "These DCT transmissions are a huge improvement over those old slushboxes" I laughed to myself as I knew that the XKR had a ZF 6 speed automatic.

A few years later I test drove an XKR-S at Lime Rock once again with Davy Jones. He told me that he really liked the (ZF 6 speed auto) transmission and that he felt it was much better than the single clutch (SMG) paddle shifted transmission that was in a Lamborghini he had recently test driven. He felt that the shifts on the Lambo were too rough and tended to unsettle the car.

Certainly someone who has only driven automatics will be able to drive a DCT. There is a bit of a learning curve to an MT but it is an easily acquired skill and I have taught many people to drive an MT over the years. In my experience a very significant portion of MT drivers are not particularly proficient at it. They are able to start smoothly and change gears but are not very good at (or don't know how to) heel and toe rev match and the only reason they do not spin out when they downshift without rev matching (Trailing Clutch Oversteer or "TCO") is because they are so far below the limits of the car. Also they are frequently in the wrong gear.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I am not remotely concerned with the "stigma" of driving an "automatic"

I think a certain amount of the appeal of a DCT is that it is "Not really an automatic". IMO any transmission that can be driven in fully automatic mode is by definition an automatic transmission. Although they are very different internally the driver interface between the Steptronic and the DCT is very similar. Dare I say almost identical?

IMO the DCT is not leaps and bounds ahead of "traditional" automatics. I have driven my DCT M4 back to back with a Jaguar XF-R which has an aggressively tuned ZF 8 Speed automatic. The ZF was very impressive and certainly not leaps and bounds behind the DCT in my M.

A few years ago I participated in the "Jaguar Heritage Tour" at Monticello Motorsports Park". Participants drove various Jaguars (I chose an XKR) on the rounds surrounding the track and then on the track itself. We also got hot laps around the track with professional racing drivers (I drove and then rode with Davy Jones). When I was waiting for my turn another participant finished his laps and when he got out of the car he said "These DCT transmissions are a huge improvement over those old slushboxes" I laughed to myself as I knew that the XKR had a ZF 6 speed automatic.

A few years later I test drove an XKR-S at Lime Rock once again with Davy Jones. He told me that he really liked the (ZF 6 speed auto) transmission and that he felt it was much better than the single clutch (SMG) paddle shifted transmission that was in a Lamborghini he had recently test driven. He felt that the shifts on the Lambo were too rough and tended to unsettle the car.

Exactly. You fit in this category:

For every DCT driver who says "my transmission is better" <- Respect.

[dinonz]

I should add - this is exactly what the 6MT guys are saying:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

IMO any transmission that can be driven in fully automatic mode is by definition an automatic transmission.

Yet some DCT drivers still insist that its "just like driving a manual". It's not. Just accept it and move on.

[landshark99]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Exactly. You fit in this category:

For every DCT driver who says "my transmission is better" <- Respect.

never said it is better just faster, allowing one to concentrate more on the other controls of a car, if you like a manual fine, at this point I prefer the DCT after having driven MTs for over 30 years

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

VERY TRUE.

Because, what you do with the controls is the MANUAL part - i.e. the pedal(s - more than one if you're doing it properly) and shifter is rather manual, as opposed to the paddle which is akin to using the blinker.

The AUTOMATIC part is happening behind the scenes - which is 99% of what happens with a DCT. Sure there are assistant devices for the MT - but there's 100 times as much manual input as there is for a DCT.

I don't know why DCT drivers can't accept that there's a big difference, and just not try to claim that "its much the same as driving a manual". That's like saying pressing the button on your wife's vibrator is much the same as having sex with her... it's just not.

Originally Posted by dinonz

You're missing the point... it's not about which is better - the DCT is (and I ordered a 6MT). Without a doubt the DCT is "the" transmission of the future, but some of us old dogs just love stirring the gears by hand.

It's about the DCT drivers saying "it's just like driving a manual". It's not. It gives you manual control, but equally it's "just like driving a steptronic automatic" - only the responsiveness is better. But that better responsiveness does not make it anything remotely close to like "driving a manual". It makes it "like having manual control over an automatically controlled manual gearbox".

For every DCT driver who says "my transmission is better" <- Respect.

For every DCT driver who claims "just like driving a manual" <- Idiot.

That's it in a nutshell for me. It's the same as FADEC in aviation - 1 single "power" control replaces the throttle, mixture and pitch controls. Trying to equate the 2 as being the same is just nonsense.

As I have elaborated previously here, it is all about the point of view.

This is the key portion:

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. From that point of view, yes DCT more closely resembles an automatic. My point of view though is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior. And from that point of view, DCT is much closer to a "manual" than it is to a traditional "automatic".

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I should add - this is exactly what the 6MT guys are saying:

Yet some DCT drivers still insist that its "just like driving a manual". It's not. Just accept it and move on.

I agree with you here, from a driver interface perspective, driving a DCT is not just like driving a manual.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by landshark99

never said it is better just faster, allowing one to concentrate more on the other controls of a car, if you like a manual fine, at this point I prefer the DCT after having driven MTs for over 30 years

I think it is better, despite getting a 6MT. But then, despite getting a ZCP, I won't be pushing my car to the limits either. But I like the precision feeling it offers (and I really only got it for the seatbelts), without feeling the need to find out where it will give up and throw me into the bushes.

As I've said - the DCT is amazing, and I would have got one if I wasn't an old school stick in the mud fool who wants to stir the gears by hand. I dunno - it's kinda like baking a cake from scratch rather than using a pre-mixed packet. There's just some satisfaction, even if it's slower and more labor intensive.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

IMO the DCT is not leaps and bounds ahead of "traditional" automatics.

I have to disagree with you here, specifically the bold.

Still today, the vast majority of "torque converter/planetary gear automatics" on the market are of the "slush box" type that don't provide a good connection between driver and power to the ground. DCT IS leaps and bounds ahead of these majority of "automatics" on the market.

There a few exceptions though, with the avenue of new technologies, these next-gen "automatics" are getting very close to the performance of a DCT. And as I posted earlier, it is only a matter of time when they will match (or even surpass) DCT. When that time comes, DCT will become obsolete.