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      04-15-2019, 09:21 PM   #1
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Going from ZCP to CS edc!

Anyone have an opinion on this coding upgrade.

I just did it and I am still trying to know if I like it or not. The change is subtle. But if I had to give it a review I think cs is actually less firm than ZCP and therefore more comfortable. I think cs has more body roll. The benefit of cs over ZCP though is over bumps. I think the cs tune has better rebound and makes the ride less bouncy.

Anyone opinions or thoughts ?
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      04-15-2019, 09:26 PM   #2
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that's strange because iirc from the press release the cs was said to be firmer

cs owners may believe it 'feel's more comfortable but that's down to the extra compliance in the sidewall bw the cs 35 series front tyre vs zcp 30

i'm running the tractive suspension, so i'd be keen to see how these shocks respond to it - waiting for thor offer it via their app
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      04-15-2019, 09:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
that's strange because iirc from the press release the cs was said to be firmer

cs owners may believe it 'feel's more comfortable but that's down to the extra compliance in the sidewall bw the cs 35 series front tyre vs zcp 30

i'm running the tractive suspension, so i'd be keen to see how these shocks respond to it - waiting for thor offer it via their app
The firmness May be due to different springs. I don’t find my car to be firmer. I am trying to see if others agree. I may go back.
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      04-16-2019, 05:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
that's strange because iirc from the press release the cs was said to be firmer

cs owners may believe it 'feel's more comfortable but that's down to the extra compliance in the sidewall bw the cs 35 series front tyre vs zcp 30

i'm running the tractive suspension, so i'd be keen to see how these shocks respond to it - waiting for thor offer it via their app
The firmness May be due to different springs. I don’t find my car to be firmer. I am trying to see if others agree. I may go back.
I prefer the CS coding. It is definitely firmer compared to ZCP and the rebound is much better.
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      04-16-2019, 08:17 PM   #5
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Can we find actual data on this? I am debating going back. I think it’s softer.
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      04-21-2019, 11:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Can we find actual data on this? I am debating going back. I think it's softer.
This might be a decent change to the ZCP software. I just had my car updated to the latest istep and it feels harsher/firmer than the CS EDC.

Before on my old software, the CS felt firmer.

Overall I still prefer the CS coding since it feels a lot more compliant.
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      04-22-2019, 05:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Anyone have an opinion on this coding upgrade.

I just did it and I am still trying to know if I like it or not. The change is subtle. But if I had to give it a review I think cs is actually less firm than ZCP and therefore more comfortable. I think cs has more body roll. The benefit of cs over ZCP though is over bumps. I think the cs tune has better rebound and makes the ride less bouncy.

Anyone opinions or thoughts ?
Damper tuning does not alter how much the car rolls during cornering. Unless you have physically changed the springs or the swaybay bars, the amount of roll you are experiencing is the same.
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      04-22-2019, 10:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Anyone have an opinion on this coding upgrade.

I just did it and I am still trying to know if I like it or not. The change is subtle. But if I had to give it a review I think cs is actually less firm than ZCP and therefore more comfortable. I think cs has more body roll. The benefit of cs over ZCP though is over bumps. I think the cs tune has better rebound and makes the ride less bouncy.

Anyone opinions or thoughts ?
Damper tuning does not alter how much the car rolls during cornering. Unless you have physically changed the springs or the swaybay bars, the amount of roll you are experiencing is the same.
Depends . . .

Dampers affect the rate of roll. For a cornering / steering maneuver that doesn't have time to settle into steady state, such as changing lanes or a quick S-bend, dampers can reduce the amount of roll experiences during that finite period of time. Even for a corner that eventually reaches steady state, the dampers will affect how quickly the car gets there, again affecting the drivers perception of how much the car is rolling.
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      04-22-2019, 10:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Depends . . .

Dampers affect the rate of roll, and reducing the rate of inertia build. For a cornering/steering maneuver that doesn't have time to settle into steady state, such as changing lanes or a quick S-bend, dampers can reduce the amount of roll experiences during that finite period of time. Even for a corner that eventually reaches steady state, the dampers will affect how quickly the car gets there, again affecting the drivers perception of how much the car is rolling.
Agreed. I was a bit blunt in my post. Springs define how much the car rolls while dampers define how fast the car rolls. It does not take that long for the car to "take a set" though and it is only in very rapid side to side transitions that damping will limit the total amount of roll and it can definitely have an effect on the perceived amount of body motion. But it remains just that: a perception; and that is what
I wanted to highlight in my post.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-22-2019 at 09:01 PM..
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      04-22-2019, 10:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Anyone have an opinion on this coding upgrade.

I just did it and I am still trying to know if I like it or not. The change is subtle. But if I had to give it a review I think cs is actually less firm than ZCP and therefore more comfortable. I think cs has more body roll. The benefit of cs over ZCP though is over bumps. I think the cs tune has better rebound and makes the ride less bouncy.

Anyone opinions or thoughts ?
Many types of rough roads actually require high damping to reduce the amount of wheel travel and prevent crash-through. Having higher damping can give road impacts a more muted thud sound rather than a louder bang sound, even though the people impact is technically firmer.

The driver may experience a bit more acceleration of jerk, but the ride may still be perceived as more plush because of the improved damping of wheel impacts.

CS edc cal has this characteristic. It has higher damping quality, meaning the damping is applied at the right time and in the right amount more often than the other tunes.

The reason you notice more roll is that the front to rear balance of the springs and bars is different between the CS and ZCP. The ZCP has a stiffer front bar. The CS EDC compensates for this by increasing roll damping at the front. But since the CS and ZCP have the same rear bar, the CS EDC doesn't provide the same increase to rear roll damping.

So now your roll stiffness and damping is a bit out of balance front to rear. Since humans really only perceive things relative to other things, you're probably noticing the rear rolling more than the front, even if the whole car is actually rolling less than before.

To me, the CS is a better damper calibration, but you'll sacrifice a bit of handling and roll balance and steering feel and response unless you have the full CS suspension package. Whether the overall improvement in damping quality is worth it or not is up to you.

The good news is that ZCP's already have most of the expensive/difficult parts needed to swap to a full CS suspension. A front bar and set of springs is all you'd need. It's much more expensive to update a base car to The CS spec.
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      04-22-2019, 01:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Many types of rough roads actually require high damping to reduce the amount of wheel travel and prevent crash-through. Having higher damping can give road impacts a more muted thus sound rather than a louder bang sound, even though the rise is technically firmer.

The driver may experience a bit more acceleration of jerk, but the ride may still be perceived as more plush because of the improved damping of wheel impacts.

CS edc cal has this characteristic. It has higher damping quality, meaning the damping is applied at the right time and in the right amount more often than the Other tunes.

The reason you notice more roll is that the front to rear balance of the springs and bars is different between the CS and ZCP. The ZCP has a stiffer front bar. The CS EDC compensates for this by increasing roll damping at the front. But since the CS and ZCP have the same rear bar, the CS EDC doesn't provide the same increase to rear roll damping.

So now your roll stiffness and damping is a bit out of balance front to rear. Since humans really only perceive things relative to other things, you're probably noticing the rear rolling more than the front, even if the whole car is actually rolling less than before.

To me, the CS is a better damper calibration, but you'll sacrifice a bit of handling and roll balance and steering feel and response unless you have the full CS suspension package. Whether the overall improvement in damping quality is worth it or not is up to you.

The good news is that ZCP's already have most of the expensive/difficult parts needed to swap to a full CS suspension. A front bar and set of springs is all you'd need. It's much more expensive to update a base car to The CS spec.
I think you are right. I do feel it in the rear.
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      04-22-2019, 01:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Damper tuning does not alter how much the car rolls during cornering. Unless you have physically changed the springs or the swaybay bars, the amount of roll you are experiencing is the same.
They absolutely control "how" the car rolls... the roll rate is highly dependent on rebound damping. And it's the rate that you feel much more than the absolute amount - this is felt as steering/chassis response when you turn the wheel and the car sets into a turn. Firmer (slow speed) rebound damping = a flatter feeling (aka: more responsive) car in the turns.

How "much" the car rolls is controlled by the springs/bars/bumpstops, so you are technically correct.
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      04-22-2019, 05:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Many types of rough roads actually require high damping to reduce the amount of wheel travel and prevent crash-through. Having higher damping can give road impacts a more muted thus sound rather than a louder bang sound, even though the rise is technically firmer.

The driver may experience a bit more acceleration of jerk, but the ride may still be perceived as more plush because of the improved damping of wheel impacts.

CS edc cal has this characteristic. It has higher damping quality, meaning the damping is applied at the right time and in the right amount more often than the Other tunes.

The reason you notice more roll is that the front to rear balance of the springs and bars is different between the CS and ZCP. The ZCP has a stiffer front bar. The CS EDC compensates for this by increasing roll damping at the front. But since the CS and ZCP have the same rear bar, the CS EDC doesn't provide the same increase to rear roll damping.

So now your roll stiffness and damping is a bit out of balance front to rear. Since humans really only perceive things relative to other things, you're probably noticing the rear rolling more than the front, even if the whole car is actually rolling less than before.

To me, the CS is a better damper calibration, but you'll sacrifice a bit of handling and roll balance and steering feel and response unless you have the full CS suspension package. Whether the overall improvement in damping quality is worth it or not is up to you.

The good news is that ZCP's already have most of the expensive/difficult parts needed to swap to a full CS suspension. A front bar and set of springs is all you'd need. It's much more expensive to update a base car to The CS spec.
According to previous posts,I thought only the front bar was different?
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      04-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Many types of rough roads actually require high damping to reduce the amount of wheel travel and prevent crash-through. Having higher damping can give road impacts a more muted thus sound rather than a louder bang sound, even though the rise is technically firmer.

The driver may experience a bit more acceleration of jerk, but the ride may still be perceived as more plush because of the improved damping of wheel impacts.

CS edc cal has this characteristic. It has higher damping quality, meaning the damping is applied at the right time and in the right amount more often than the Other tunes.

The reason you notice more roll is that the front to rear balance of the springs and bars is different between the CS and ZCP. The ZCP has a stiffer front bar. The CS EDC compensates for this by increasing roll damping at the front. But since the CS and ZCP have the same rear bar, the CS EDC doesn't provide the same increase to rear roll damping.

So now your roll stiffness and damping is a bit out of balance front to rear. Since humans really only perceive things relative to other things, you're probably noticing the rear rolling more than the front, even if the whole car is actually rolling less than before.

To me, the CS is a better damper calibration, but you'll sacrifice a bit of handling and roll balance and steering feel and response unless you have the full CS suspension package. Whether the overall improvement in damping quality is worth it or not is up to you.

The good news is that ZCP's already have most of the expensive/difficult parts needed to swap to a full CS suspension. A front bar and set of springs is all you'd need. It's much more expensive to update a base car to The CS spec.
According to previous posts,I thought only the front bar was different?
Apparently the CS has non zcp rear springs.
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      04-22-2019, 08:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Many types of rough roads actually require high damping to reduce the amount of wheel travel and prevent crash-through. Having higher damping can give road impacts a more muted thus sound rather than a louder bang sound, even though the rise is technically firmer.

The driver may experience a bit more acceleration of jerk, but the ride may still be perceived as more plush because of the improved damping of wheel impacts.

CS edc cal has this characteristic. It has higher damping quality, meaning the damping is applied at the right time and in the right amount more often than the Other tunes.

The reason you notice more roll is that the front to rear balance of the springs and bars is different between the CS and ZCP. The ZCP has a stiffer front bar. The CS EDC compensates for this by increasing roll damping at the front. But since the CS and ZCP have the same rear bar, the CS EDC doesn't provide the same increase to rear roll damping.

So now your roll stiffness and damping is a bit out of balance front to rear. Since humans really only perceive things relative to other things, you're probably noticing the rear rolling more than the front, even if the whole car is actually rolling less than before.

To me, the CS is a better damper calibration, but you'll sacrifice a bit of handling and roll balance and steering feel and response unless you have the full CS suspension package. Whether the overall improvement in damping quality is worth it or not is up to you.

The good news is that ZCP's already have most of the expensive/difficult parts needed to swap to a full CS suspension. A front bar and set of springs is all you'd need. It's much more expensive to update a base car to The CS spec.
According to previous posts,I thought only the front bar was different?
Edited reply:
That's correct, the CS uses the base front bar, which is of a smaller diameter than the ZCP front bar. That's consistent with what I wrote above, no? I don't understand what you're saying here . . .


Old reply (ignore this!):
[COLOR="SILVER"]Oops, yeah, you're right. I had to update my base M3 to the ZCP rear bar, so I made a mistake writing that post. Still, a ZCP car's roll balance will be off with the CS edc cal.[/COLOR]
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      04-22-2019, 08:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
They absolutely control "how" the car rolls... the roll rate is highly dependent on rebound damping. And it's the rate that you feel much more than the absolute amount - this is felt as steering/chassis response when you turn the wheel and the car sets into a turn. Firmer (slow speed) rebound damping = a flatter feeling (aka: more responsive) car in the turns.

How "much" the car rolls is controlled by the springs/bars/bumpstops, so you are technically correct.
Agreed. I was a bit blunt in my post. Springs define how much the car rolls while dampers define how fast the car rolls. It does not take that long for the car to "take a set" though and it is only in very rapid side to side transitions that damping will limit the total amount of roll, but it can definitely have an effect on the perceived amount of body motion.

I'd however say it is the overall damping that has an effect on roll, not only the rebound damping. The damper being compressed has just as much effect on slowing down the roll than the damper that is being extended.
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      04-22-2019, 09:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Oops, yeah, you're right. I had to update my base M3 to the ZCP rear bar, so I made a mistake writing that post. Still, a ZCP car's roll balance will be off with the CS edc cal.
I'm confused. I think your original post is indeed correct. When converting a CP to CS it is indeed the front swaybar that needs to be changed along with the springs. What am I missing ?
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      04-23-2019, 04:45 AM   #18
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CS is more comfortable than a ZCP.

The springs are softer, the front wheel is smaller, the profile of the tyre is larger, the EDC coding is different.

Also, the steering on the CS in comfort is lighter than it is in comfort on the ZCP.

The CS feels more compliant and in Efficient/Comfort/Comfort, to me at least, feels closer to a 330i than an M3.

I've owned a 17 M3 ZCP and a few of my F80 friends came to the same conclusion as I did on ride an comfort.
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      04-23-2019, 06:31 AM   #19
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net net here is that i think if you drive around a city you are going to prefer a CS edc. Where as if you have nice roads, to me, the ZCP edc is more firm, more sporty, and generally feels more like a track car.

I am likely going back. Car is less fun.
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      04-23-2019, 07:03 AM   #20
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Why would BMW make the CS suspension softer on a car that comes with cup2s? Rumors on the boards indicate the CS also has a softer front bar otherwise its all the same, so does it mean the springs are stiffer? If the springs are stiffer, it would make sense the shocks are turned up. If the shocks are turned up and run with stiffer comp bar and softer springs, the car would feel more dampened, not softer no?
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      04-23-2019, 09:20 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappy View Post
Why would BMW make the CS suspension softer on a car that comes with cup2s? Rumors on the boards indicate the CS also has a softer front bar otherwise its all the same, so does it mean the springs are stiffer? If the springs are stiffer, it would make sense the shocks are turned up. If the shocks are turned up and run with stiffer comp bar and softer springs, the car would feel more dampened, not softer no?
the rear moves around. Turn in is still sharp. But in saloms i feel slop in the ass i didnt before. its just less aggressive. The GTS steering could be giving me the impression of less firmness too. But i really think its about the rear end. Someone above has a more technical opinion on it. I am not that well versed in suspension geometry. I am just an end user on the street. To me it feels 100% more comfortable over road imperfections but less aggressive. Less sporty.

The weather has been rain for two weeks here. This weekend i will drive it more. But one thing i noticed in life is that first impressions are almost always right and that goes for everything. Our minds adjust. We rationalize. etc. basically we get conditioned.
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      04-23-2019, 09:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
the rear moves around. Turn in is still sharp. But in saloms i feel slop in the ass i didnt before. its just less aggressive. The GTS steering could be giving me the impression of less firmness too. But i really think its about the rear end. Someone above has a more technical opinion on it. I am not that well versed in suspension geometry. I am just an end user on the street. To me it feels 100% more comfortable over road imperfections but less aggressive. Less sporty.

The weather has been rain for two weeks here. This weekend i will drive it more. But one thing i noticed in life is that first impressions are almost always right and that goes for everything. Our minds adjust. We rationalize. etc. basically we get conditioned.
I'm not doubting your impressions. I am just trying to rationally think why BMW would make the M4 CS softer. Going stiffer on the CS springs, would explain the need to turn the shocks up and go with less front bar. Going softer on the springs would explain nothing, especially while going to a softer bar on stickier tires. It just seems backwards to me.

At this point I wouldn't rule out misinformation of what the CS really is from the shock/spring/bar standpoint compared to the comp pack.
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