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      12-03-2019, 10:49 AM   #155
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This is one of the all time great myths. It's 100% not true. People just want more shit.
Not a myth. Maybe some wages have gone up to compensate, but not enough of them...
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      12-03-2019, 10:53 AM   #156
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Not a myth. Maybe some wages have gone up to compensate, but not enough of them...
It's a myth. Any overlay taken over the past 5, 10, 15, 20 year period shows net real wage growth.

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      12-03-2019, 10:57 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
This will do me. Man, words fail me. We're taking the bible for guidance now?


"for i did not speak of my own accord" John 12:49 jesus drove a honda but never spoke about it.

but i agree im not sure why religion is being brought into this. Pretty sure every major religion would frown on someone buying an M3 vs a honda civic and donating the rest to charity.



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This is one of the all time great myths. It's 100% not true. People just want more shit.
pretty much this. The rise of social media and all its influence is a big part of it.
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      12-03-2019, 11:17 AM   #158
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I don't understand the logic here, unless you're never buying a car.

If you want to take the money from the car loan and buy stock instead, aren't you implying you would buy the car in-full instead of financing? So (for example) instead of a loan of $30k over 4 years ($625/month), you're going to write a check for $30k.

Had you financed, you could have put that $30k into the stock purchase immediately, and gotten larger returns off the investment (beauty of compound interest), rather than the other scenario where you "save" $625 in monthly payments and put that towards stock over 4 years.

Let's say that stock grew at 5%/year for you. After 4 years of the initial $30k purchase you'd have $36,465.19. On the $625/month approach, assuming a stock purchase of $625 each month over 4 years at the same 5% return it would be $33,942.23. Congrats, refusing the loan just cost you roughly $2500.

I've learned to stay away from these arguments because there's no right answer and no one-sized-fits-all approach, but scenarios like the above make me scratch my head and wonder what I'm missing...
Not disagreeing with you at all. It works in theory but in practice I've never met anyone with the discipline to actually follow it. If anything it really comes down to one's personal drive. Do they view money as a tool to make more money or as something to buy more stuff?

For example they receive $50k in cash. Put $5,000 down on a new car and "invest" the $45,000 in an index fund. Proclaim to everyone their strategy about the difference between the car note interest rate and the average return on investment, (say SP500 large cap index fund at 10% annually long term). Sounds great.

Now the house that they are living in is 15 years old and has a few unexpected problems. Roof needs to be done, bam $20k. Now they sell shares of the index fund to pay for the repair or finance it. Then there are things like kitchen remodeling, pools, hot tubs, toys like boats, dirt bikes. etc. They tell others that they have the cash in the bank to pay for it but are financing it so their money "works for them".

Generally this is what I've seen happen and the original person ends up with lots of debt (both planned and unplanned) on deappreciating assets and is constantly freaked out about money.

Now when you are talking about high net worth individuals, things are a bit different.

Also would like to note the added complexity of dealing with investments. For the above to work, one would have to continually sell shares, then transfer the funds to a bank account that the car loan is linked to. Then at year end you would be responsible for cap gains, dividends and distributions. Then there are the additional forms that must be included with your annual tax filings. Yeah it can be done but it sure complicates the heck out of it to "save" a few hundred or thousand dollars.

Plus since the principle reduces in order to pay the car loan, the compounding effect is pretty negligible.

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      12-03-2019, 11:21 AM   #159
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It's a myth. Any overlay taken over the past 5, 10, 15, 20 year period shows net real wage growth.

Where's the rest to go with said chart?
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      12-03-2019, 11:23 AM   #160
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https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/4...ips-to-survive

But yea, wages are great for all! $2k+ per month apartments going up all the time around me. You can't live without being rich or in debt right now.
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      12-03-2019, 12:16 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
This will do me. Man, words fail me. We're taking the bible for guidance now?
I take guidance from the Bible in nearly everything I do. I am a practicing Christian and take my faith seriously.

If you are not a Christian, then you are welcome to take or not take advice from the Bible. I won't criticize you over it - but I expect the same respect for my views in return. Christian or not, however, it is hard to argue with the statement I quoted - agreed? The borrower is slave to the lender until the debt is repaid.


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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
This is one of the all time great myths. It's 100% not true. People just want more shit.
This is 100% accurate. On nearly ever metric, things cost less today than ever in history. It's the 'more' factor that people ignore.

Homes are larger, cars have more equipment, etc.
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      12-03-2019, 12:44 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post


"for i did not speak of my own accord" John 12:49 jesus drove a honda but never spoke about it.

but i agree im not sure why religion is being brought into this. Pretty sure every major religion would frown on someone buying an M3 vs a honda civic and donating the rest to charity.





pretty much this. The rise of social media and all its influence is a big part of it.
A bit insulting, don't you think?

While the vehicle for the statement I used "debtor slave to the lender" - Christian faith - may not be your faith or someone else's, so what? It takes a truly narrow-minded bigot to want to deprive people of a smart and honest statement just because that meaning is rooted in faith or in a faith other than your own.

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      12-03-2019, 12:49 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast View Post
https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/4...ips-to-survive

But yea, wages are great for all! $2k+ per month apartments going up all the time around me. You can't live without being rich or in debt right now.
You quoted a 'VICE' article. Not exactly honest reporting, good grief.

It is a well documented fact by all financial metrics that it costs less to live in the USA today than ever in history. This is the USA as a whole, not specific pockets.

Is San Fran more expensive today than before? Yes - but even then, when you back out modern conveniences that are now considered mandatory - it isn't nearly as dramatic as one thinks it is. For places like SF, the only CPI item that really increased substantially was housing costs.

I am a licensed CPA and have spent many years calculating PPI, CPI and other metrics when dealing with M&A - I can categorically tell you that prices have not outpaced wages in America as a whole and have actually dropped when accounting for increases in lifestyle.
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      12-03-2019, 12:50 PM   #164
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AFAIK if you're a grown adult and believe in the equivalent of the Easter Bunny, you're open to a bit of friendly mocking. I don't discriminate either, Christian, Muslim, whatever ... all bonkers.
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      12-03-2019, 12:56 PM   #165
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i just don't understand the thinking:

"I am never going into debt or getting a loan, its a sin"

"ok but getting a mortgage is fine because i don't want to buy a sub-100k house"


are loans for medical needs like an unexpected heart surgery ok?
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      12-03-2019, 02:40 PM   #166
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I mean, my loan length on my M2C is 6 years. I make way over payments (well I've only made 1 payment thus far), but plan on paying over by a good amount. I only chose 6 over 5 in case something bad happens, I can easily make the minimum payments and not fret it.

I think some of this has to attributed to the younger generation (my peers and I), not quite knowing how money works. You would be insanely surprised how many of my college buddies make similar to what I make, and live paycheck to paycheck. They don't have budgets set, they don't track their money to see where it goes, and they have no self control. Far too many people these days are living well outside their means, and don't understand how they can get out of it. Sell that $1200 phone and drop your unlimited data plan, drop your internet speed and cable bill, stop spending so much on food and drinks, etc. Setting a budget and sticking to it can prove to be insanely helpful.
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      12-03-2019, 07:36 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
You quoted a 'VICE' article. Not exactly honest reporting, good grief.

It is a well documented fact by all financial metrics that it costs less to live in the USA today than ever in history. This is the USA as a whole, not specific pockets.

Is San Fran more expensive today than before? Yes - but even then, when you back out modern conveniences that are now considered mandatory - it isn't nearly as dramatic as one thinks it is. For places like SF, the only CPI item that really increased substantially was housing costs.

I am a licensed CPA and have spent many years calculating PPI, CPI and other metrics when dealing with M&A - I can categorically tell you that prices have not outpaced wages in America as a whole and have actually dropped when accounting for increases in lifestyle.
You are absolutely right. Living in the US offers the best bang for the buck right now. I have relatives living overseas and their house starts at a $1.5Mil to $2.5 Mil. They have 200% import taxes on their cars yet they manage to drive Bentleys and Porsches somehow. Paid cash for them too. My cousin drives a Porsche Panamara S -- $120K add 200% tax = $360K
Did I mention she paid cash for the thing?

I'm only a bit jealous.
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      12-03-2019, 07:44 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
You are absolutely right. Living in the US offers the best bang for the buck right now. I have relatives living overseas and their house starts at a $1.5Mil to $2.5 Mil. They have 200% import taxes on their cars yet they manage to drive Bentleys and Porsches somehow. Paid cash for them too. My cousin drives a Porsche Panamara S -- $120K add 200% tax = $360K
Did I mention she paid cash for the thing?

I'm only a bit jealous.
Oil? Drugs? Both?

Also is cuz single? /s
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      12-03-2019, 10:00 PM   #169
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Oil? Drugs? Both?

Also is cuz single? /s
Dentist. She owns 3 dental offices.
The other one is a veterination who owns an animal hospital.
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      12-03-2019, 11:02 PM   #170
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Marketing tactics largely hinge upon the premise of human greed and insecurities.

I heard over the news not long ago the that a great number of Canadians are just a $2000 unplanned bill from financial disaster. I was shocked personally. Us frugal conservative hockey loving Canucks? Alas I don't attempt to assume based on facades. Who knows behind closed doors right?

Nothing wrong with having a Compass to live by.... as opposed to walk as the wind blows.
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      12-04-2019, 07:02 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
I mean, my loan length on my M2C is 6 years. I make way over payments (well I've only made 1 payment thus far), but plan on paying over by a good amount. I only chose 6 over 5 in case something bad happens, I can easily make the minimum payments and not fret it.

I think some of this has to attributed to the younger generation (my peers and I), not quite knowing how money works. You would be insanely surprised how many of my college buddies make similar to what I make, and live paycheck to paycheck. They don't have budgets set, they don't track their money to see where it goes, and they have no self control. Far too many people these days are living well outside their means, and don't understand how they can get out of it. Sell that $1200 phone and drop your unlimited data plan, drop your internet speed and cable bill, stop spending so much on food and drinks, etc. Setting a budget and sticking to it can prove to be insanely helpful.
Great post.....we get so many right out of college (Engineers) that think they are supposed to be at $120K per year out of the gate. We start them out typically in the upper 80's which was a lot better than what I got as my first engineering job.

I drilled budget and responsibility into my daughter from the time she was old enough to start working. She worked through school, college, and now in Graduate school. Only after Grad school when she goes into Med school will she have to stop working. But she's married and he's in Pharmaceuticals....so they will live off of his paycheck while she finishes her education.

But they both max out their 401K's, bought a house that cost about 40% of what they were approved for, and use a program that I use called YNAB (You Need a Budget).

And just like your college buddies who live check to check, they also have friends that do the same thing...mainly House Poor with the latest cars.

Meanwhile, she and her husband are preparing for 20 years from now, but still being able to enjoy perks such as traveling for weekend getaways, etc.
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      12-04-2019, 01:02 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Marketing tactics largely hinge upon the premise of human greed and insecurities.

I heard over the news not long ago the that a great number of Canadians are just a $2000 unplanned bill from financial disaster. I was shocked personally. Us frugal conservative hockey loving Canucks? Alas I don't attempt to assume based on facades. Who knows behind closed doors right?

Nothing wrong with having a Compass to live by.... as opposed to walk as the wind blows.
you can sleep a bit easier and have less savings when the govt safety net is strong and health care is free.
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      12-04-2019, 02:58 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
You quoted a 'VICE' article. Not exactly honest reporting, good grief.

It is a well documented fact by all financial metrics that it costs less to live in the USA today than ever in history. This is the USA as a whole, not specific pockets.

Is San Fran more expensive today than before? Yes - but even then, when you back out modern conveniences that are now considered mandatory - it isn't nearly as dramatic as one thinks it is. For places like SF, the only CPI item that really increased substantially was housing costs.

I am a licensed CPA and have spent many years calculating PPI, CPI and other metrics when dealing with M&A - I can categorically tell you that prices have not outpaced wages in America as a whole and have actually dropped when accounting for increases in lifestyle.
Really? Then why has rent cost now skyrocketed?
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      12-04-2019, 03:00 PM   #174
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Great post.....we get so many right out of college (Engineers) that think they are supposed to be at $120K per year out of the gate. We start them out typically in the upper 80's which was a lot better than what I got as my first engineering job.

I drilled budget and responsibility into my daughter from the time she was old enough to start working. She worked through school, college, and now in Graduate school. Only after Grad school when she goes into Med school will she have to stop working. But she's married and he's in Pharmaceuticals....so they will live off of his paycheck while she finishes her education.

But they both max out their 401K's, bought a house that cost about 40% of what they were approved for, and use a program that I use called YNAB (You Need a Budget).

And just like your college buddies who live check to check, they also have friends that do the same thing...mainly House Poor with the latest cars.

Meanwhile, she and her husband are preparing for 20 years from now, but still being able to enjoy perks such as traveling for weekend getaways, etc.
Bottom line is it all comes down to your income no matter what you want to or try to plan for. Someone making $40k, for example, ain't able to save shit or take trips etc. Maybe if you live in bum fuck OK or something where a mcmansion is cheap, but then salaries are less, less jobs, etc
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      Yesterday, 10:03 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast View Post
Bottom line is it all comes down to your income no matter what you want to or try to plan for. Someone making $40k, for example, ain't able to save shit or take trips etc. Maybe if you live in bum fuck OK or something where a mcmansion is cheap, but then salaries are less, less jobs, etc
Not arguing with you. Just pointing out that some people live within and below their means because there are other things in life that they may consider more important no matter what they make. You budget with what you have even if it hurts.

I grew up dirt poor and knew I wasn't going to live like that later if I could avoid it. After college, my first job paid great but I didn't go out and stretch myself in buying the biggest house I could afford.

I guess the climate here is pretty good. Both of them combined make over $200K a year, but their first house that they just bought was only $130K. It's a "quaint" first home...in a nice neighborhood, and affords them the opportunities to do other things that they want to do. Meanwhile they have friends who make similar, bought the biggest house they qualified for, and drive the best cars that they could get approved for.

Then they look at my daughter and SIL and say they don't see how they can do some of the traveling they do as they couldn't afford to do it.
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