Track Car Dilemma

[theox05]

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

I see you said allstate explicitly agreed to cover this - is that your broker or the underwriter putting that in writing? If the broker misinterprets the standard inclusions and endorsements, that doesn't necessarily put allstate on the hook for a loss.

If this is being put in writing by the underwriting staff at allstate, you should talk with your broker and that underwriter to see how much commission you can score, because their new business bonus for the next year will be absurd. We'll all be moving to allstate through your broker before you could blink.

These being covered as part of standard auto insurance is becoming more and more rare - almost unheard of lately.

In just the past 3 weeks I've had a few conversations with my broker trying to find a complete annual auto+hpde insurance policy and there is nothing we can locate that will cover what a hpde includes with full disclosures on my end. If I can avoid 500 a weekend towards lockton and combine that coverage in with my usual auto policy, I would love to do that.

Direct quote from my broker, who spoke with the underwriter:

"As long as your(sic) not racing on the track and just do the driving training you are covered. That is coming from Allstate directly. "

I sent her another email yesterday to confirm nothing has changed for this year. I was also careful to very explicit about what HPDE does and does not entail. Will post response when I get it.

[Caliboy951]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

I cannot seem to locate the exclusions for my USAA policy. I've reviewed the policy itself and the binder with no luck. Where did you find this information?

USAA does cover track events. I totaled a race bike at a track day event and I explained in detail how no racing was allowed or permitted and it was a "controlled advanced driving environment".
The adjuster came out, claim was paid and they sold me the bike back for $800.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I’ve always used track day insurance when taking my expensive street cars to the track. Gives me piece of mind on the few days I take those cars. Usually I’m in my race car though, which of course theres no insurance for racing.

True recent story: A couple of track buddies of mine went down to INDE for a little test and tune. One of them is a member there. There would only a few cars on this huge track at any one time, so no one would of even have thought of getting track day insurance. Probably couldn’t get it anyway since it’s not a real track day with a club.

Anyway, they had only been there maybe an hour or so and my one friend pulled onto the track in front of of my other buddy that was on a hot lap. Disrupted his concentration enough on a very fast tricky section that he lost control and put his brand spanking new Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS into the tire wall!

You might think maybe the Porsche driver was driving over his head or something. Well here’s the thing, he’s probably the best driver I’ve ever known and a 14 time NASA National TT champion. It’s not a matter of if, but when will you have an incident.

Porsche driver was not hurt. Took two hours to inch the RS into an enclosed trailer. Insurance will not cover, nor will the driver try to defraud insurance and make up a story to try to get it covered. Current estimates are north of $120K to repair the GT3 RS.

WOW

this is like the poster case for getting a track car or HPDE insurance

OP, another route to consider is doing arrive and drive in whatever race car you want. If you are only going 1-2 times a year, just rent something for the weekend

[jmg]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I’ve always used track day insurance when taking my expensive street cars to the track. Gives me piece of mind on the few days I take those cars. Usually I’m in my race car though, which of course theres no insurance for racing.

True recent story: A couple of track buddies of mine went down to INDE for a little test and tune. One of them is a member there. There would only a few cars on this huge track at any one time, so no one would of even have thought of getting track day insurance. Probably couldn’t get it anyway since it’s not a real track day with a club.

Anyway, they had only been there maybe an hour or so and my one friend pulled onto the track in front of of my other buddy that was on a hot lap. Disrupted his concentration enough on a very fast tricky section that he lost control and put his brand spanking new Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS into the tire wall!

You might think maybe the Porsche driver was driving over his head or something. Well here’s the thing, he’s probably the best driver I’ve ever known and a 14 time NASA National TT champion. It’s not a matter of if, but when will you have an incident.

Porsche driver was not hurt. Took two hours to inch the RS into an enclosed trailer. Insurance will not cover, nor will the driver try to defraud insurance and make up a story to try to get it covered. Current estimates are north of $120K to repair the GT3 RS.

Nightmare fuel.

[theox05]

My email:

"Just wanted to check in and confirm that nothing changed this year. I plan on attending a few HPDE events on a racetrack this year and want to confirm that Allstate has me covered. To be clear, no timed events, just HPDE on a racing surface. "

Answer:

"Sorry for the delay. As long as your(sic) not racing. Nothing has changed (: "

I might also mention this Allstate broker also owns one of the BMW dealerships in my area. They might have some kind of agreement about these things considering what they sell, although I know its ultimately up to the underwriter.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Anyway, they had only been there maybe an hour or so and my one friend pulled onto the track in front of of my other buddy that was on a hot lap. Disrupted his concentration enough on a very fast tricky section that he lost control and put his brand spanking new Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS into the tire wall!
.

Regular track weekends will see more than one GT3 or Cup car in the wall.

Top run groups do have accidents pretty frequently.

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by theox05

I hear you, let me put down a couple considerations:

1) Seems like I'm limited on what I can do to the car without falling victim to warranty voiding. I've seen some threads here where cars have been voided for "track use".

2) I have a tow vehicle already.

3) HPDE is covered, but I can't go just run the track outside of HPDE without buying supplemental insurance. Seems to run about $400 per day. That seems excessive.

So although I agree with others that if you are going to run the M4 in groups you believe you are not covered, get the track day insurance. But I am in the camp that if you really feel the bug has bit, I would recommend a dedicated track car (specifically a e46 330i), and this is why:

1) Learning. In your own $60,000 car no matter the insurance there will always be a mental wall which you will not want to cross/exceed as far as pushing the car. Although this likely will not matter the first year, as you progress to the 2nd and 3rd year to truly improve you will have to push out of your comfort zone, and this is much easier to do in a less expensive car which you know mentally to some extend is expendable.

2) Cost. Although it seems like buying a $4000 car is counter intuitive to saving you money, lets look at it this way. Consumables (tires, brakes, etc) will be cheaper on a 330i in addition to some (but maybe not all) up grade-able parts. And of course if you save $400 per event on insurance and do 10 events it has already paid for itself.

3) Long term plans. Along the same lines as cost, if you pick something you can develop down the road to run in specific groups (TT, Spec E46, ST, GTS) you are saving by spending the money once. I.e. not upgrading your M4 for two years, then buying a track car and spending all that money over again.

Just my two cents but I think, once again is the bug has truly bit, that a track car is a good investment, especially something like the E46 330i which could be built to Spec E46 or similar specs and sold if you lose interest. My two cents

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Regular track weekends will see more than one GT3 or Cup car in the wall.

Top run groups do have accidents pretty frequently.

Yeah, familiar.

Race group is even worse than advanced DE groups. The starts and first couple of laps is like running the “gauntlet of death” lol! I’ve been hit 3 times in the rear portions of my race car in just the last year or so. The offender has paid for damages in each case at least though.

I was talking to a buddy yesterday that has been doing some lemons racing lately. When you lose control and spin in that group, the officials make you write 100 times on your car “I will not lose control of my car”. Second offense, they make you spray paint Maytag spin cycle 100 times on the car, lol!

[wcw]

Read these posts w/great interest. I've USAA and have been with them for 20+ years. I've a '17 M3 ZCP and want to take it out to COTA w/Edge Addicts. What was the consensus of USAA covering HPDE's?

[GasBurnlife(landapanda)]

Originally Posted by wcw

Read these posts w/great interest. I've USAA and have been with them for 20+ years. I've a '17 M3 ZCP and want to take it out to COTA w/Edge Addicts. What was the consensus of USAA covering HPDE's?

I am not aware of any insurance companies that will extend your road coverage to the tack. You will have to buy track only insurance to be covered. Look at Lockton insurance.

[imolam3]

Originally Posted by wcw

Read these posts w/great interest. I've USAA and have been with them for 20+ years. I've a '17 M3 ZCP and want to take it out to COTA w/Edge Addicts. What was the consensus of USAA covering HPDE's?

USAA will not cover HPDE. If you read the exclusion on your policy, it should be in it. Get track insurance for peace of mind.

[mcvaughan]

I hear that if you do ball up your car into a tire wall, they might pay, but will drop you soon thereafter. Pony up for insurance if you feel you can’t risk it. Lockton.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Pic18

So although I agree with others that if you are going to run the M4 in groups you believe you are not covered, get the track day insurance. But I am in the camp that if you really feel the bug has bit, I would recommend a dedicated track car (specifically a e46 330i), and this is why:

1) Learning. In your own $60,000 car no matter the insurance there will always be a mental wall which you will not want to cross/exceed as far as pushing the car. Although this likely will not matter the first year, as you progress to the 2nd and 3rd year to truly improve you will have to push out of your comfort zone, and this is much easier to do in a less expensive car which you know mentally to some extend is expendable.

2) Cost. Although it seems like buying a $4000 car is counter intuitive to saving you money, lets look at it this way. Consumables (tires, brakes, etc) will be cheaper on a 330i in addition to some (but maybe not all) up grade-able parts. And of course if you save $400 per event on insurance and do 10 events it has already paid for itself.

3) Long term plans. Along the same lines as cost, if you pick something you can develop down the road to run in specific groups (TT, Spec E46, ST, GTS) you are saving by spending the money once. I.e. not upgrading your M4 for two years, then buying a track car and spending all that money over again.

Just my two cents but I think, once again is the bug has truly bit, that a track car is a good investment, especially something like the E46 330i which could be built to Spec E46 or similar specs and sold if you lose interest. My two cents

Truth.

[mindspin311]

Buy a dedicated track car. You can pick up that E46 330 you mentioned for a few thousand. Then spend a few thousand additional on safety gear, etc. and just drive it to the track with a 2nd set of wheels in the back seat or trunk.

Unless you have the means to completely write off a new F8x then I would get something dedicated and much lower cost to own, and potentially lose.

[Mandi90TT]

I totally disagree with the 'buy another car for the track'.

The F8x was designed to be a car that you could daily drive, AND take it to the track on the weekend. Buying a separate track car completely defeats that.

Get track insurance, it's relatively reasonable, if you feel you need it.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

I totally disagree with the 'buy another car for the track'.

The F8x was designed to be a car that you could daily drive, AND take it to the track on the weekend. Buying a separate track car completely defeats that.

Get track insurance, it's relatively reasonable, if you feel you need it.

Having driven and raced some of those 'cheap, old' track cars I couldn't agree with you more.

The E36 'track car' or whatever is very cheap to buy, quite expensive to operate. When half the anchoring points of the front and rear subframe are coming apart, when the suspension towers are mushrooming... yup, you remember how cheap it is to race a car that is 20 years old.

Besides, until someone is in the top ranked run group I strongly suggest against buying any dedicated car. A M4 with camber plates and maybe, maybe a front BBK is capable of getting there, so it does not need 20k in mods.

[mindspin311]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Having driven and raced some of those 'cheap, old' track cars I couldn't agree with you more.

The E36 'track car' or whatever is very cheap to buy, quite expensive to operate. When half the anchoring points of the front and rear subframe are coming apart, when the suspension towers are mushrooming... yup, you remember how cheap it is to race a car that is 20 years old.

Besides, until someone is in the top ranked run group I strongly suggest against buying any dedicated car. A M4 with camber plates and maybe, maybe a front BBK is capable of getting there, so it does not need 20k in mods.

Going to have to challenge that. A set of 4 rotor for an E36 is like $100, don't you need to tack on an additional 0 to get the price of 4 rotors for an F8x?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by mindspin311

Going to have to challenge that. A set of 4 rotor for an E36 is like $100, don't you need to tack on an additional 0 to get the price of 4 rotors for an F8x?

that's ok, this is a conversation. Challenge away

People get lost focusing on the $100 rotors and forget mechanical issues. Those are what kill ancient cars and are extremely expensive.

To reweld a subframe back onto the car costs the same on a E36 than a F80, that is to say, a metric crapload. New transmission on the E36? Also quite expensive and not an issue you have to worry about in an F80

You have to do a truly incredible number of track days for the $100 rotors to add up to the cost of reconstructing a subframe. I doubt OP fits into that category.

How may track days will it take to blow through a set of F8X rotors? Quite a few. And perhaps by then RockAuto will sell the same $42 rotors they now have for the E9X if you want to use cheap stuff

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by imolam3

USAA will not cover HPDE. If you read the exclusion on your policy, it should be in it. Get track insurance for peace of mind.

+1

Need to read the exclusions. Broker email unlikely to get you a payout when insurance co denies and lawyers up

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Having driven and raced some of those 'cheap, old' track cars I couldn't agree with you more.

The E36 'track car' or whatever is very cheap to buy, quite expensive to operate. When half the anchoring points of the front and rear subframe are coming apart, when the suspension towers are mushrooming... yup, you remember how cheap it is to race a car that is 20 years old.

Besides, until someone is in the top ranked run group I strongly suggest against buying any dedicated car. A M4 with camber plates and maybe, maybe a front BBK is capable of getting there, so it does not need 20k in mods.

When you started tracking and racing, did you do it I car with m4 caliber of capabilities? (eg there was an article showing a stock f80 as being faster around hockenheim than a 2.5L ex DTM e30 m3 racer).

Costs aside, it’s way easier to learn on a lesser power car.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

+1

Need to read the exclusions. Broker email unlikely to get you a payout when insurance co denies and lawyers up

And remember, most insurance companies have more and better lawyers than you do.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

When you started tracking and racing, did you do it I car with m4 caliber of capabilities? (eg there was an article showing a stock f80 as being faster around hockenheim than a 2.5L ex DTM e30 m3 racer).

Costs aside, it’s way easier to learn on a lesser power car.

I did it with an E46M, although you could say I started 'tracking' much earlier in life, it was just not in the USA or I'd be in jail

Fair point with the capabilities thing, however, that can be mitigated by using Conti ECS tires or something of the sort. Besides, according to some the F8X is a slow car at the track and impossible to be fast in

I actually race E36s. The degree to which they are money pits is truly out of this world.

If we need OP to get a less capable car, a 230i or something like that should suffice. Not a 20 year old platform.