First Comparison Look at BMW M4 versus Lexus RC F

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

I was told this by the chief instructor of bmw hpde. Do you instruct for track days?

No, but you may very well have been instructed by my boss, the owner of the driving school, since he's been Chief Instructor for our chapter, been a HPDE instructor for at least a couple of decades and done many HPDEs with the LA chapter, as well as being an instructor at the BMW CCA ///M School at the Nurburgring. He's also won so many SD BMW CCA autocrosses including FTOD that many years ago he excluded himself from being eligible for trophies. He is well-known in SoCal and national BMW circles.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

My mirrors right now have no blind spot. In fact, my side mirrors show the car in the next lane approach from afar as well as when they are next to me - as in, its on my side, in my peripheral vision, and in my side mirrors. So your post is strange. Also, when i am stopped at the red light, i look over my shoulder (where blind spot would be) and confirm that its in my mirrors.

Even the rear view if positioned correctly will show the beginning of the blind spot. With the rear view mirror and side view mirrors positioned correctly, you will have more than 180 degrees view behind you.

On the road, i still look back for additional measure and for just in case when there are plenty of cars. But most of the time, i only look at my mirrors at different angles by moving my head to check

Sorry, I'm not buying this. You can't see 180 degrees behind you with just the mirrors, not enough to make a decision if a car on your left or right flank in just the right spot to be in your blind spot. And you certainly can't see more than 180 degrees with your mirrors because that means that with your mirrors you would be able to see ahead of what you can see by simply turning your head left or right 90 degrees. That's just not possible.

I also look at my mirrors at different angles for my first check but I always look in my blind spot for final confirmation.

I also owned a S2000 for 13 years before I bought the Z4 M Roadster. I had blind spot mirrors on that car because it was pretty hard to see out of when the top was up, especially with the plastic back window. I hated driving that car at night when it was cold, or in the rain, until I replaced the top with one that had a glass rear window. I haven't gotten around to that yet with the Z4MR.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

No, but you may very well have been instructed by my boss, the owner of the driving school, since he's been Chief Instructor for our chapter, been a HPDE instructor for at least a couple of decades and done many HPDEs with the LA chapter, as well as being an instructor at the BMW CCA ///M School at the Nurburgring. He's also won so many SD BMW CCA autocrosses including FTOD that many years ago he excluded himself from being eligible for trophies. He is well-known in SoCal and national BMW circles.



Sorry, I'm not buying this. You can't see 180 degrees behind you with just the mirrors, not enough to make a decision if a car on your left or right flank in just the right spot to be in your blind spot. And you certainly can't see more than 180 degrees with your mirrors because that means that with your mirrors you would be able to see ahead of what you can see by simply turning your head left or right 90 degrees. That's just not possible.

I also look at my mirrors at different angles for my first check but I always look in my blind spot for final confirmation.

I also owned a S2000 for 13 years before I bought the Z4 M Roadster. I had blind spot mirrors on that car because it was pretty hard to see out of when the top was up, especially with the plastic back window. I hated driving that car at night when it was cold, or in the rain, until I replaced the top with one that had a glass rear window. I haven't gotten around to that yet with the Z4MR.

yes, in fact, all LA chapter instructors teach this to all beginners so its surprising that it doesn't ring a bell....as for 180 degree view, here's what i mocked up LOL....not perfect but gets to the point....my side mirrors are facing so outward that i can see it in my mirror while its on my side (if i look left, i see the car in my eyesight and and in my mirror).

Lines are for rear view mirror and side mirror / not at all accurate but you get the idea.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Powaup

That and the seats are the best parts about the interior. Look at the center console and tell me it does not look tacky, the gear lever design is nowhere near as nice as the competition and why is there a knob the size of the 1st gen iDrive to pick between just 3 driving modes....

that center HVAC does look cheap....

but there is a knob for driving modes because there is a touchpad by the center armrest for everything else! lol

[secono330ci]

The Lexus is suprising nice. I like it. But compared to the m4? No chance.

[MaX PL]

as someone else mentioned, everyone will turn their head when they see a RC F on the road. with the m3/m4, some may turn their head, but most will just see another bmw.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

as someone else mentioned, everyone will turn their head when they see a RC F on the road. with the m3/m4, some may turn their head, but most will just see another bmw.

thats a good one..its true..but i think thats why the f8x's are available in these sort of wild colors.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by SD Z4MR

Yes, looking into your blind spot is being taught as best practice because you will not pass the CA DMV test if you change lanes without looking in your blind spot. Lane changes include pulling away from the curb (moving from the parking lane to the driving lane), pulling over to the curb (vice-versa), and moving over into a left or right turn only lane, particularly when crossing a bike lane, and of course changing lanes on a multi-lane road or freeway. It only takes a second to check your mirrors and blind spot and it's just a glance. Of course you should be following at least three to four seconds behind the car in front of you which should give you ample opportunity to glance over your shoulder for a lane change. You should also gauge the safety of making a lane change by what's going on with the traffic in front of you.

We teach adjusting your mirrors by leaning on the left and right seat bolsters and adjusting the mirrors so that you can barely see the side of your own car. Then, from your normal driving position, sitting back in the seat with your hands slightly bent in the 9 and 3 position, you should not be able to see any of your own car. Side view mirrors are designed to see other cars, not your own car.

these are the very basics of teaching...what really NEEDS to be taught are things like judging how fast a car is approaching (just because you have space and he is not right behind you doesn't mean to MAKE said lane change), accelerating into the lane change, and simple traffic etiquette (if slow, merge right; when in bumper to bumper traffic and merging into lanes, it should be left car, right car, left car, right car; don't accelerate to not let someone in if you are the slow one causing traffic), etc.....all MORE important things that need to be taught since some ppl lack common sense.

[giOsaurus rEx]

Both cars look pretty bad. I do like the rear end of the Lexus though. I bet both cars will drive soft and feel big, yet be marketed overpriced to the "enthusiasts." What a bad time to be an enthusiast! The only new true enthusiast car is the FRS/BRZ… too bad its too slow.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by Powaup

That and the seats are the best parts about the interior. Look at the center console and tell me it does not look tacky, the gear lever design is nowhere near as nice as the competition and why is there a knob the size of the 1st gen iDrive to pick between just 3 driving modes....

+1. How anyone can think that plastic block of a center console belongs in this class of car is beyond me. It's the same as the one in the IS and as other posts commented on looks like it came out of a late 90s car. I just don't get it, because IMO the rest looks great. I guess that's the price you pay to get into the "budget premium brand" vehicle. You get 95% of the Germans fit/finish/performance at 10% less cost, but that other 5% is straight up Toyota (or Nissan if buying infiniti).

[pkimM3r]

Well not 180 degrees but very close. Close enough to see side of car with peripheral and rear of car with mirrors. So technically you are correct but its not far from it. This completely eliminates blind spots.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

these are the very basics of teaching...what really NEEDS to be taught are things like judging how fast a car is approaching (just because you have space and he is not right behind you doesn't mean to MAKE said lane change), accelerating into the lane change, and simple traffic etiquette (if slow, merge right; when in bumper to bumper traffic and merging into lanes, it should be left car, right car, left car, right car; don't accelerate to not let someone in if you are the slow one causing traffic), etc.....all MORE important things that need to be taught since some ppl lack common sense.

I call this "the zipper!"

It seems like common sense to me but you'd be surprised at how few people follow it

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

I call this "the zipper!"

It seems like common sense to me but you'd be surprised at how few people follow it

Yep. I always let the car in "front" go but as soon as that tard tries to sneak in, i get really aggressive like NO cutting. This aint elementary school :Lol:

[Bunkei]

I think this is a car that needs to be seen in person before passing final judgment. It's definitely polarizing, and I think that was the intention. It was not that long ago that Lexus was thought of not able to make anything to excite the senses (good or bad). I'm happy to see that they are taking chances.

It is also neat to hear that the F will retain the V8. However, it will probably be too heavy to be considered a track animal, but it most likely not embarrass itself either.

The interior definitely is a letdown for me, especially considering how nice the new GS interior is. The center console looks like something I'd expect to see in a Toyota...

[georgere]

BMW design is too safe and boring, but that grill on Lexus is horrible. I would choose neither but I can't afford either of these cars anyway and non M Lexus is even worse looking. This time BMW is my. Voice given the options but man BMW needs a new design team...

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by Wiz135

Both cars look pretty bad. I do like the rear end of the Lexus though. I bet both cars will drive soft and feel big, yet be marketed overpriced to the "enthusiasts." What a bad time to be an enthusiast! The only new true enthusiast car is the FRS/BRZ… too bad its too slow.

Says a guys who owns 1-series. Arguably one of the ugliest BMW made in recent history.

[OverDriven]

Lexus really needs to learn a thing or two about taste. Most of their new cars are so overstyled that it honestly looks like something a highschooler sketched in his notepad during math class. Who exactly is this car targeted at? 20-somethings with more disposable income than most? I can't see anyone over 30 driving something so garish.

[makdeniss]

lexus indeed looks very nice. alive. and I wouldn't argue about interior, since BMW is still using cheap ass plastic which creaks and squeaks the same if not more as Japanese made cars.

[Marioalex24]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Wow, looks familiar to me.

Damn lmfao. That's exactly what I was going to say. I was about to search for the FRS until I saw your post. As soon as I saw the rear that's the first thought that came to my mind.


Lexus looks good, no way better than the M4. M4 has more class and exclusivity.

[Boostnectar]

That thing is heinous. Predator face FAIL. I'd rather drive a Nissan juke.

How does the FRS make this look soooo terrible.

[Ghetto2315]

I don't know guys. I kind of like it...

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

these are the very basics of teaching...what really NEEDS to be taught are things like judging how fast a car is approaching (just because you have space and he is not right behind you doesn't mean to MAKE said lane change), accelerating into the lane change, and simple traffic etiquette (if slow, merge right; when in bumper to bumper traffic and merging into lanes, it should be left car, right car, left car, right car; don't accelerate to not let someone in if you are the slow one causing traffic), etc.....all MORE important things that need to be taught since some ppl lack common sense.

Since this whole discussion is way off topic, I"m only going to reply to this post and then I'm done with the discussion.

Of course this is just the very basics of teaching and the mirror adjustment gets taught in the first 15 minutes at the curb before the student even starts the engine, along with seat adjustment and hand position. And we do teach everything that you mentioned and much, much more. We have three 2-hour behind-the-wheel lessons with the student (unfortunately, all that's required by CA law), driving in all varieties of traffic conditions, including neighborhoods, secondary streets, freeways, mountain, etc. A large part of the problem is that students have been sitting in the back seat or the front seat watching their parents drive for their entire life and their parents' bad habits have been ingrained in their memory. We even have parents that contradict what we teach, like the parent that told their daughter "You should always drive 5 MPH below the speed limit" and "You should take your hands off the wheel and let the car straighten out by itself".

Regarding your spreadsheet above, we use a similar diagram but to scale. Your mirrors are huge and your view angle is optimistic. Bottom line, you need to look in your blind spot (over the shoulder) every time you make a lane change. We teach students how to pass their driving test and this is essential for them to learn or they will fail.

[pkimM3r]

Good to know you are thorough with the teaching and in reality, most ppl will not adhere to it - which is a shame.

Regarding blind spots i still have my mirrors showing no blind spots. Here is a picture of a car next to me with the mirror showing the same car behind me.

I guess with this angle and constant monitoring of my surroundings while driving helps me not having to look back every time. When i do so its again out of safety and habit more so than having blindspots. It is possible to rid of blindspots (at least in my car).