Water injection issue?

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If I were keeping the engine stock I would not pin the hub. The install is sketchy as could be, metal shards all over the place...

I'm sure that other than some freak accidents the cause is the torque in tuned cars. When you read the spun hub crank threads there are dozens of people saying things like 'installed stage 2 tune, spun hub the next track day'.

The GTS and CS are both torque limited to the same number. The GTS has extra power because despite not having more torque it maintains its torque for longer, generating extra power.

I've been using my CS exclusively as a track car since it was new. It gets double tracked by two savages. We are now closing the second season with 0 issues.

Look at it this way: the CS/GTS/regular Ms use the exact same hub crank than the M4 GT4 race car. If you follow IMSA you'll see 0 M cars out of the race because their hub crank spun even in endurance races.

My thoughts as well. I'm never going to tune the car either. I'm not sure the warranty is necessary for a stock engine F8X.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Agreed, would not pin the crank unless I was modding for big power. In my opinion I'd buy a second S55 powered car to mod for big power, as I could not imagine trying to get this thing to hook on track with even more torque. Watching a guy struggle with a ZL1 last weekend was comical.

I assume the ECU has learned that water injection wasn't working, and has defaulted to the Comp/CS tune. By pulling the power, I am also assuming that the ECU will forget all settings, and set a new baseline(timing, CS vs GTS map). If this doesn't work then I need to find whatever magical button forces the car in the GTS map.

I only compete against myself(and I suppose a few Porsches ) with this car, but being down 50hp is annoying to me.

edit: Guess I get to figure out how much my BMW dealership is going to tolerate me, car still showed 420hp after a battery reset. I'd say altitude could be a factor, but the car dyno'd identical to a M3 Comp within 10 minutes of the Comp dynoing. Would think if water injection was fixed and the map was working, at a minimum I'd see ~465hp on the iDrive vs ~415-420hp.

Yes I saw your earlier post. That's frustrating.

after my dealer replaced the valve block and reprogrammed the car this week, I had two runs definitely right up to the 490 hash mark on the HP display (it's half way between the 420 and 560 marks), so for those two runs it looks like things were working as they were supposed to. But I couldn't replicate it. Granted I was on a public road and tires were not up to temperature but the rest of the requirements for water injection should've been met.

Prior to the service, I had never seen it get even half way between the 420 and 490 marks, which is what it's supposed to do when H2O not working.

So if the power meter is to be believed, My car is working normally at least intermittently.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

My thoughts as well. I'm never going to tune the car either. I'm not sure the warranty is necessary for a stock engine F8X.

I'd agree re: extended warranty if I could get this water injection mystery figured out...

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

I'd agree re: extended warranty if I could get this water injection mystery figured out...

Go ask how much it would be to swap out the entire assembly at the dealer? If it's less than the warranty then you have to decide if the rest of the warranty potential is worth it for any other less obvious problems the cars have.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

Go ask how much it would be to swap out the entire assembly at the dealer? If it's less than the warranty then you have to decide if the rest of the warranty potential is worth it for any other less obvious problems the cars have.

You raise a very good point about self insurance.

I'm not sure what the total bill would be but I believe that the valve block itself is over $4000, plus labor of course.

Thankfully my car has about another eight weeks left on the factory warranty, I just bought it a few weeks ago with just over 5000 miles on it.

This is conjecture but I'm guessing the water injection did not work because the car was driven so in frequently over the past four years. And I guess that's what happens.

I'm hoping with regular use and changing of the stone filter which can be done at home, it will stay working provided they can get it to work full-time in the first place. I'm not exactly sure what's going on right now with mine, seems like it's intermittent now (although it did not work at all before this service/replacement).

I'm going to take it in next week after driving it this weekend and see if it's still throwing codes.

I'm still going through the ringer trying to extend the factory warranty through BMW, they are being sticklers about the fact that there was no oil change done for 18 months, however, the car was not being driven so I think they're just Using any excuse they cannot to extend the warranty.

In my mind BMW would have no problems extending the warranty if it was going to make them money in the long run so I'm not sure if it's model specific and they're just being persnickety to try to get me to give up.

Extended warranties are able to be recouped pro rata so it's a win win to get it now if I can in my opinion

[h_bakken]

Drove a bunch today, warmed car up with quick drive to gas station, then warmed up tires, then about 20 WFO runs to redline in second gear and one through third gear, HP never got above around 455, no where near the 490 hash mark.

Sport Plus in MDM S3 setting.

Ambient temp 88, dry brand new smooth blacktop very grippy surface and my new Sport Cup 2 at recommended pressures.

Essentially no change in water level.

Getting a quick scan Monday in the service bay and also making appointment for another diagnostic.

My valve block assembly was just replaced under warranty last week with the "optimized" block and car reprogrammed.

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Drove a bunch today, warmed car up with quick drive to gas station, then warmed up tires, then about 20 WFO runs to redline in second gear and one through third gear, HP never got above around 455, no where near the 490 hash mark.

Sport Plus in MDM S3 setting.

Ambient temp 88, dry brand new smooth blacktop very grippy surface and my new Sport Cup 2 at recommended pressures.

Essentially no change in water level.

Getting a quick scan Monday in the service bay and also making appointment for another diagnostic.

My valve block assembly was just replaced under warranty last week with the "optimized" block and car reprogrammed.

I have a feeling that the cars with water injection problems are the early delivery ones. I think they might have done something on cars delivered latter in the year near the end of production. Only way to prove that is to do a survey with vin numbers.
Also the tire temperature does affect the success rate of achieving that 490 hp mark. Before reaching that temperature the traction control kicks in and limits hp. That's my experience. Obviously road conditions is a factor too.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Osiris

I have a feeling that the cars with water injection problems are the early delivery ones. I think they might have done something on cars delivered latter in the year near the end of production. Only way to prove that is to do a survey with vin numbers.
Also the tire temperature does affect the success rate of achieving that 490 hp mark. Before reaching that temperature the traction control kicks in and limits hp. That's my experience. Obviously road conditions is a factor too.

I'd believe that.

Today's drive convinced me that something is still not right. Tires were warm and the run to redline in third there was no tire slippage that I could detect seat of my pants, HP still around 450.

With about 5 weeks left on the original factory warranty I'm going to be very matter of fact with the dealership, this is now a known issue on my car and it needs to be addressed BEFORE I'm out in the cold without a warranty.

What worries me is if there are no new fault codes, what are my options?

This car should make over 490 HP. Somethings amiss, I'm certain of it.

I would genuinely appreciate any advice from others who have had a similar experience.

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Drove a bunch today, warmed car up with quick drive to gas station, then warmed up tires, then about 20 WFO runs to redline in second gear and one through third gear, HP never got above around 455, no where near the 490 hash mark.

Sport Plus in MDM S3 setting.

Ambient temp 88, dry brand new smooth blacktop very grippy surface and my new Sport Cup 2 at recommended pressures.

Essentially no change in water level.

Getting a quick scan Monday in the service bay and also making appointment for another diagnostic.

My valve block assembly was just replaced under warranty last week with the "optimized" block and car reprogrammed.

Are you past the break-in period? Mine did not give full power consistently until after 2000 miles or so.

It worked go a while, then failed shortly after and ECU codes via Carly or BimmerCode showed as "water pressure too low" errors.
Dealership needed to reflash my software to the latest to properly pull these codes as well. Water filter change during first attempt, then replaced with revised water pump block after that.

Mine is a late November 2016 build/ manufactured close towards the end.

Water injection and pump works as intended for over 10k miles now

[Deda]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

I'd believe that.

Today's drive convinced me that something is still not right. Tires were warm and the run to redline in third there was no tire slippage that I could detect seat of my pants, HP still around 450.

With about 5 weeks left on the original factory warranty I'm going to be very matter of fact with the dealership, this is now a known issue on my car and it needs to be addressed BEFORE I'm out in the cold without a warranty.

What worries me is if there are no new fault codes, what are my options?

This car should make over 490 HP. Somethings amiss, I'm certain of it.

I would genuinely appreciate any advice from others who have had a similar experience.

Just one question.
Did you get notice low level water in reservoar?

I was getting each time i pass over 2000 rpm.

Even my reservoar was full.

That was trigger for me to change water filter and after same warining came..i knew it it was water valve issue.

Deda

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by Deda

Just one question.
Did you get notice low level water in reservoar?

I was getting each time i pass over 2000 rpm.

Even my reservoar was full.

That was trigger for me to change water filter and after same warining came..i knew it it was water valve issue.

Deda

No I never got that warning. That looks like a warning sign that water is not going through when needed.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Are you past the break-in period? Mine did not give full power consistently until after 2000 miles or so.

It worked go a while, then failed shortly after and ECU codes via Carly or BimmerCode showed as "water pressure too low" errors.
Dealership needed to reflash my software to the latest to properly pull these codes as well. Water filter change during first attempt, then replaced with revised water pump block after that.

Mine is a late November 2016 build/ manufactured close towards the end.

Water injection and pump works as intended for over 10k miles now

Yes I'm past break in, sounds like I have had the same service procedures as you.

Before service never saw full power, after service saw it only twice on the drive home. After that it's back to around 450 max and does not appear to be using much if any water.

[h_bakken]

BMW head tech scanned the car today, apparently everything checks out.

Gave me a print out (see pic)

Perhaps I am over thinking this.

I'll be doing some more driving this weekend with TCS off to see what happens.

And my only source of information is the HP display, I don't have an aftermarket OBD gauge.

I did one WOT run in second and saw HP gauge higher than usual, maybe 470.

Anyone else have trouble getting HP gauge to hit 490 regularly with water injection in good order?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

BMW head tech scanned the car today, apparently everything checks out.

Gave me a print out (see pic)

Perhaps I am over thinking this.

I'll be doing some more driving this weekend with TCS off to see what happens.

And my only source of information is the HP display, I don't have an aftermarket OBD gauge.

I did one WOT run in second and saw HP gauge higher than usual, maybe 470.

Anyone else have trouble getting HP gauge to hit 490 regularly with water injection in good order?

Could very well be that DSC is intervening in 2nd. Have you tried a third gear pull all the way up the tach? That would be more informative with MDM traction on.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Could very well be that DSC is intervening in 2nd. Have you tried a third gear pull all the way up the tach? That would be more informative with MDM traction on.

I've done one or 2 but on public roads it's definitely a risk.

Curious now, why do you suggest MDM vs TCS off?

I was thinking TCS off would eliminate car's interference in engine top end?

I remember some early videos with drivers commenting on TCS being intrusive and suggested shutting it off altogether IIRC

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

I've done one or 2 but on public roads it's definitely a risk.

Curious now, why do you suggest MDM vs TCS off?

I was thinking TCS off would eliminate car's interference in engine top end?

I remember some early videos with drivers commenting on TCS being intrusive and suggested shutting it off altogether IIRC

My read of your previous post was that you were getting those lower hp readings with traction on in 2nd, and intend to try with it off this weekend.

That's one approach, the other would be to keep MDM engaged and do third gear pulls. With decent road conditions, by the time you're up in the revs in 3rd you should be getting full engine power, no DSC intervention.

Yes, it's very intrusive in the lower gears -- full on, MDM mode, doesn't matter. But I wouldn't recommend driving with it off with cars around.

Tough to find some clear roads in your neighborhood yeah?

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

My read of your previous post was that you were getting those lower hp readings with traction on in 2nd, and intend to try with it off this weekend.

That's one approach, the other would be to keep MDM engaged and do third gear pulls. With decent road conditions, by the time you're up in the revs in 3rd you should be getting full engine power, no DSC intervention.

Yes, it's very intrusive in the lower gears -- full on, MDM mode, doesn't matter. But I wouldn't recommend driving with it off with cars around.

Tough to find some clear roads in your neighborhood yeah?

Yes your read was correct.

I have been trying various things and actually can't remember exactly which approach I was using each time.

I am fairly certain that the two second gear pulls that hit ~490 hash mark were in Sport Plus S3 with MDM on, that was the day I picked the car up after the valve block replacement and ECU reprogram.

I'll be trying some more WOT stuff this weekend after properly warming tires on some brand new actual blacktop that is not too far from my house and seems very grippy (I live sort of out in the country thankfully).

One thing I have found is that hard braking on even older, seasoned chip seal (tar and chip pavement covering very common on rural roads) I can hear the Sport Cup 2 ripping the stones right off the pavement, so probably similar things occur under acceleration.

Thanks again.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

After the valve block replacement the car is once gain consuming water at the previously normal rate. However, the internal iDrive power gauge was still showing 415-420hp, and my lap times didn't drop like I would expect with a +10% power bump. Did go through 25 gallons of gas and ~3 gallons of water, averaging 5.9mpg.

Been too busy with work to hassle the dealership, but I have tomorrow off. I'm going to pull the battery and completely de-power the car, beat on it in a canyon, and if I'm still showing 415-420hp I'll give them a call to see if there is any diagnostic information relating to which map the car is running. I do have an OBD2 scanner, I need to see if the boost pressure registers, and need to check if the GTS tune bumps that up a few PSI. I cannot imagine they're gaining 50hp via just advancing the timing..

I wish this system just worked and I trusted it. I am annoyed knowing that I'm likely down ~50hp. At least GT3s have the politeness to break a rod instead of limping around down on power

Did you ever get this sorted?

Sounds like you are having a similar issue to me.

My valve block just replaced and car reprogrammed, not sure it's working full time as I have seen only 2 runs approaching 490 on the power meter.

I have about 6 weeks left factory warranty.

EDIT:

Just got word I got the factory warranty extended to 84 months, so less immediate concern.

Still want to be sure it's working though.

Planning first track day ever at COTA soon.

[786]

This is the only issue I’m a bit concerned about with the GTS, doesn’t sound like replacing the valve block is always solving the issue...

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Did you ever get this sorted?

Sounds like you are having a similar issue to me.

My valve block just replaced and car reprogrammed, not sure it's working full time as I have seen only 2 runs approaching 490 on the power meter.

I have about 6 weeks left factory warranty.

EDIT:

Just got word I got the factory warranty extended to 84 months, so less immediate concern.

Still want to be sure it's working though.

Planning first track day ever at COTA soon.

Not yet, busy work week and I haven't had a chance to holler at the BMW dealership yet. Have fun at COTA, it's a fantastic track.

[4play]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Did you ever get this sorted?

Sounds like you are having a similar issue to me.

My valve block just replaced and car reprogrammed, not sure it's working full time as I have seen only 2 runs approaching 490 on the power meter.

I have about 6 weeks left factory warranty.

EDIT:

Just got word I got the factory warranty extended to 84 months, so less immediate concern.

Still want to be sure it's working though.

Planning first track day ever at COTA soon.

Take the car to your local driving roads (Hill Country if you're in TX) and drive it hard for several hours. Then see if the water level has changed. I wouldn't rely on the little power meter gimmick within iDrive.

[ClubsportJunkie]

h_bakken Take your car out to Harris Hill Raceway or COTA and report back. I've driven my GTS 9000 miles without tracking it (haven't because of COVID and personal excuses), and I've only filled up 3 times from a quarter to a half tank empty in the 7000 miles I've owned it. You're not going to see the results you're looking for until you take it out on the track. Look forward to seeing you around town.