Why such disagreement over the M4 GTS?

[786]

Interesting article, apologies if it’s been posted before

WHY SUCH DISAGREEMENT OVER THE BMW M4 GTS?
I adore the Hardcore GTS but it seems not everyone is a fan...

https://drivetribe.com/p/why-such-di...Q4CvqnKEsvWfwA



There seems to be some disagreement in the world of motoring journalism. ‘Shock, horror’ I hear you cry. Of course the design and dynamics of cars can be polarising. Yet broadly speaking road testers tend to agree. You’ll always get the odd curmudgeon or wilful renegade, but they’re usually outliers in the grand scheme of things, even if they’re gobby ones. However, one car is currently threatening to create the sort of schism not seen since Urban VI and Clement VII clashed over who had the real popemobile. The divisive car in question? The BMW M4 GTS.

You might, quite reasonably, think ‘what’s not to like?’. It’s a BMW (often good) with the (light)weight of the M Division thrown behind it (even better) and it’s largely unsullied by considerations of practicality (excellent). Generally the press gushes like a holed sump over such things.

I love it. In fact I love it so much that before I left for DRIVETRIBE I voted it top of my list in evo’s Car of the Year test. The polish of the damping, the feel of the steering, the sound of the engine and the balance of the handling all make it sensationally thrilling in my eyes. It’s the sort of car that, at the end of a drive, makes you turn off the engine slightly reverentially and just sit in the bucket seats for a couple of minutes soaking in all that’s just happened, committing to memory every slide, every moment of lightness over a crest, every sustained hit of angry acceleration.

That wasn’t the first time I’d driven one either – this adoration was no brief romance, no one-test stand. Having spent several long days in one driving around Europe, I can say that I would happily live with a GTS and put up with any shortcomings in comfort. Not that there really are any; with sat-nav, a radio and air con, it’s hardly an R26.R. It’s a bit noisy, but not unpleasantly so. in the same vein as the current generation of GT3 RS, this is now a hardcore car that can feasibly be used every day without it feeling like a chore.

Anyhow, I’m not a lone voice writing in the wilderness about how much I adore the M4 GTS. Others like it too. Jethro Bovingdon is one and I trust his judgement. Mauro Calo (a professional driver, who helps out on various TV programmes you might have heard of) has tweeted in perplexity at people disliking the GTS. evo’s erstwhile Editor, Nick Trott, also voted it top of his eCoty list. Yet it was so distasteful to others on the eCoty panel that it ended up only joint 6th out of 12. Autocar voted it LAST in its Britain’s Best Driver’s Car test. It was beaten by… well, a lot of good cars actually, but it still seems crazy that it came last.

So, why the disparity? What’s not to like? Well, it can be a little tricky in the wet. Alright, more than tricky. In fact if you’re not in the mood then it can feel a little like there’s a price on your head and it’s keen to claim the reward. When there’s moisture around, the lightly treaded Michelin Cup 2 tyres seem to become as slippery as a 500,000mile leather steering wheel. As a result you need to discover new levels of right foot sensitivity if you want to avoid spinning them up or melting the traction control. If you turn off the ESP then you will need the hands of a gunslinger to wind lock on in time.

Now, I rather admire this uncompromising nature. I happen to like a challenge. Plenty of the most exciting pastimes demand skill, respect and a willingness to dance with danger and I think the limited edition, clearly extreme, M4 GTS falls into that particular category. But others are apparently less keen. Particularly in a wet Scotland on the first couple of days of eCoty…

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

So, there we go. Mystery solved? Probably not. But it’s a theory. I’m sure some just objected to the lack of a manual ‘box and others think that on principle the engine must be a travesty for not being NA (for what it’s worth, I think a dual clutch paddle shift suits the hard-charging character of the car and the bombastic, water-injected engine is pretty blooming special in spite of the turbo-charging). Whatever the reason, I shall continue to lust after one and place it snugly in my fantasy garage. Between the imaginary 3.8 GT3 RS and the Caterham R300, since you ask.

[Secret Chimp]

It seems to me that the only people who have strong negative opinions of this car are the magazine writers and the armchair drivers who take what those writers say as bible.

They seem to always want to measure cars like this (track day and specialty vehicles) as if they were Toyota Camrys. They forget that most folks who buy cars like this are looking for a unique experience and are making decisions based on emotion more than facts. Whether it measures up to other vehicles, whether it gets good fuel mileage, etc, it's all more or less irrelevant.

Think of another track day, top level trim performance model, or specialty vehicle that you know of. Lotus Exige and Elise, journalists complain about how hard they are to get in and out of and of the cheap components. Car enthusiasts love those cars because they look cool, handle amazingly, and are cheap to maintain. Focus RS, journalists complained about the overly harsh ride and outdated interior. Car enthusiasts love how punchy and fun it is to drive and how capable it is on track. AMG Black C63, journalists complained that it was too harsh and too outlandish/childish looking. Car enthusiasts love the unique look and the cars muscle car spirit and heritage.

Regardless of the mixed journalist reviews for the GTS, over time, I'm fairly sure this car will be remembered fondly like all special M cars. It takes time for the people to experience the car without being tainted by journalists big opinions garnered from 15 minute test drives.

[Gomeler]

If you scroll back to the first couple of pages on this forum, in addition to every couple of pages, you'll see some discussions on the GTS and how it compares to other cars/why reviewers weren't thrilled by it. Lots of opinions on the matter, ultimately it doesn't matter too much in my opinion as delivery was in 2016, and we are 4 years past that event.

At this point new inventory in the US has dried up, and used inventory has also dried up. Reviews from 2016 may deter some potential owners, and the relatively high production numbers might cause more inventory to float than we'd want, but there seems to be enough demand to at least maintain a price around $80k-$85k. That in my opinion makes the car a great value proposition, if you are looking for a trackable street car.

Maybe the G82GTS/CSL will reinvigorate interest/demand for the F82GTS, or maybe it'll cause a huge depreciation hit for the F82GTS. I'm hoping for the former. When I took my car to Cars and Coffee events, nobody knew there was a GTS trim M4. In comparison everyone knows about GT3s and GT3RS

[786]

So this article was written by Henry Catchpole, who ranked it #1 (over the 911R) in the annual eCoty competition when he worked at Evo. I think he explains pretty well why the car had some naysayers when new and why that may not be much of a deterrent in hindsight. This guy has driven every relevant enthusiast car of the last decade so him ranking it in his top-three dream garage is interesting.

I remember reading some negative reviews in period and they centered around:

1. Car is too expensive
2. Car is too heavy

#1 is irrelevant now as the car has settled down to quite the value. #2 is valid to a degree but with the G82 weight it'll look quite good, comparatively speaking.

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Maybe the G82GTS/CSL will reinvigorate interest/demand for the F82GTS, or maybe it'll cause a huge depreciation hit for the F82GTS. I'm hoping for the former. When I took my car to Cars and Coffee events, nobody knew there was a GTS trim M4. In comparison everyone knows about GT3s and GT3RS

If they make a G82 GTS/CSL I don't think it will negatively impact F82 GTS values much, if any. The 1M is still highly valued even with the objectively better M2/M2C out for some time now. Also, I highly doubt BMW can shave off enough weight to make a G82 GTS/CSL type car comparable. They will likely have to add power to try and have a similar power/weight ratio which may dull the experience. When the F82 GTS came out and reviewers were upset about ~3600lbs, imagine how they'll react with a ~4,000lb "lightweight" version of the new car.

I love that the GTS is so under the radar, even with enthusiasts. That's another draw for me, not having the same thing as everyone else.

[JLS_397K]

Originally Posted by 786

I love that the GTS is so under the radar, even with enthusiasts. That's another draw for me, not having the same thing as everyone else.

its funny that you guys(Gomeler and 786) mention that about the M4 GTS is low key amongst the car community. I bought my GTS because I wanted something unique... M4 with half cage direct from factory, water injection system, oled taillights, 1 of 300 in US, and other unique identifiers.

I dont get alot of looks but i do occasionally when somone takes a double take and sees it. I did a "Fuel Run Midnight Run to Vegas" event and someone noticed my GTS the second day... mind you there is GT2RS, Lambo Aventador SVJ, other exotics with us... but the guy walked over and was checking it and said "Dude, I just realized that you are driving a M4 GTS, I though it was just another M4, That is so badass that you are actually out here driving it with us."

This car capabilities are incredible... I own a M5 E60, and had M2 for 3.5 years... I loved the M2 for its daily toy around sprint character, but the M4 GTS is another animal once you get behind the wheel... The first time I accelerated hard, I also got pulled over. lol Cop was cool, but It boggled my mind for a second how fast gained speed. The ride is different, the sound is different, and the power delivery is different, ALL THRILLING! in a way that no normal M3/M4, Comp or CS will be able to feel exactly the same... similiar, but not the same.

[ABenLauda]

For me personally, it’s 3 things:
1) Ridiculous sticker price. I guess you can get a used one for much less now.
2) Doesn’t come from factory with camber plates. For BMW’s most track focused variant, this should be standard.
3) Heavy ass 666M wheels. Preferred the lighter 763M wheels on the CS. The pricey carbon fiber wheels are ugly af.

[786]

Originally Posted by abenney

For me personally, it’s 3 things:
1) Ridiculous sticker price. I guess you can get a used one for much less now.
2) Doesn’t come from factory with camber plates. For BMW’s most track focused variant, this should be standard.
3) Heavy ass 666M wheels. Preferred the lighter 763M wheels on the CS. The pricey carbon fiber wheels are ugly af.

Your issues were mirrored but most reviewers, price and weight. MSRP is irrelevant now, available in the 80s used. Adding camber plates and changing wheels is easy, certainly not a deal breaker imo.

Agree the cf wheels are pretty ugly though. The car I'm finalizing now had cf wheels included to help justify a higher asking price, he said when he bought the car new it was a $17k option. I negotiated a lower price without the cf wheels, zero interest in those.

[FormulaMMM]

Awesome. Somehow I missed this one. Catchpole nailed it.

Now, I rather admire this uncompromising nature. I happen to like a challenge.

Longstanding myth that the GTS wasn't understood and loved by drivers. The exception being Harris, who tested it (to my knowledge) on one occasion, in extreme wet conditions, alongside an RS and GT R, and absent any setup.

In other words, the drivers enjoyed it:

Anyhow, I’m not a lone voice writing in the wilderness about how much I adore the M4 GTS. Others like it too. Jethro Bovingdon is one and I trust his judgement. Mauro Calo (a professional driver, who helps out on various TV programmes you might have heard of) has tweeted in perplexity at people disliking the GTS. evo’s erstwhile Editor, Nick Trott, also voted it top of his eCoty list.

As for the wheels -- they were clearly designed with motion in mind.



Here's the video that accompanied this test. GTS is at 12:55

[786]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Longstanding myth that the GTS wasn't understood and loved by drivers. The exception being Harris, who tested it (to my knowledge) on one occasion, in extreme wet conditions, alongside an RS and GT R, and absent any setup.

I was also a bit surprised by Harris’ review, who I’ve read/watched for many years and is one of the best journos out there. But Catchpole’s comments seemed aimed directly at him:

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

[786]

another interesting article, this is with Catchpole and Bovingdon back when they were at Evo.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 786

I was also a bit surprised by Harris’ review, who I’ve read/watched for many years and is one of the best journos out there. But Catchpole’s comments seemed aimed directly at him:

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

That's interesting. Yeah, could be journalist on journalist shots fired at Harris, ha.

His wasn't a reasonable or thorough test. And from someone who absolutely knows the importance of setup and tuning on a car like the GTS.

(His best work was the old "Chris Harris on Cars" youtube content. Some of those group tests were especially well done.)

Each damper adjustment influences drivability. Tried "GT" settings for a road trip a couple of years back (https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1537875). What I didn't mention there was that the car struggled on highway roundabouts.

At the track, a few adjustments at the rear perceptibly changes exit traction.

After multiple track days and various damper adjustments at a track where I've done thousands of laps over a decade+, believe there's very likely more performance to be gained by additional tuning.

So, 1 hr with the car in factory street (or random other) settings does not a test make.

As i've said before, hard to believe BMW M walked right into that predictable shit feedback. Should have had the race team set it up for a given track, host a track day, then sent them onto mountain roads with cars setup for that context. AMG, Porsche GT, Corvette, seemingly every other performance car manufacturer does this sort of thing. Stacks the deck in their favor. Reviews would have been just a bit different

But perhaps M just thought that the value of the car and its performance potential would be self evident to (at least) some 700-800 enthusiasts worldwide, so they didn't care what Clarkson said. But yet they welcomed a comparison test to a 991 RS, probably with Porsche Motorsport engineers lurking behind the cameras... anyways, who knows. Enthusiasts are finally finding out what the deal is

[786]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

His wasn't a reasonable or thorough test. And from someone who absolutely knows the importance of setup and tuning on a car like the GTS.

Each damper adjustment influences drivability. Tried "GT" settings for a road trip a couple of years back (https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1537875). What I didn't mention there was that the car struggled on highway roundabouts.

Yes, Harris' review of the GTS didn't seem on par with his usual quality or thoroughness. And it was a car I thought he would like a lot, but it seemed like the price turned him off enough to not want to dig any deeper.

Regarding your "GT" settings, what do you mean by the car struggled on roundabouts? I need to figure out the ideal street settings for this car from a ride height and damper perspective. It will be exclusively street driven (as i kart for track thrills) so needs to be setup for Dallas roads, which are about as bad as it gets. I'm thinking to raise it as high as possible and figure out the ideal damper settings to allow for max compliance. It needs to "breathe with the road" to be effective down here.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

As i've said before, hard to believe BMW M walked right into that predictable shit feedback. Should have had the race team set it up for a given track, host a track day, then sent them onto mountain roads with cars setup for that context. AMG, Porsche GT, Corvette, seemingly every other performance car manufacturer does this sort of thing. Stacks the deck in their favor. Reviews would have been just a bit different

But perhaps M just thought that the value of the car and its performance potential would be self evident to (at least) some 700-800 enthusiasts worldwide, so they didn't care what Clarkson said. But yet they welcomed a comparison test to a 991 RS, probably with Porsche Motorsport engineers lurking behind the cameras... anyways, who knows. Enthusiasts are finally finding out what the deal is

Ya, it seems silly to not setup the car properly before allowing it to be reviewed. Especially a car with this level of customizable suspension. They got what they deserved for lack of preparation. It was even mentioned that the UK press fleet had two GTS' with very different suspension settings, if you got the one with track settings for a road review or vice versa it's not going to be positively reviewed.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by 786

another interesting article, this is with Catchpole and Bovingdon back when they were at Evo.

Such a great article, thank you for posting. I had read it back in the day.

I've built what essentially is an E90 GTS and I love it, but I still want to own the M4 GTS as well

I grew up with those roads in Spain and they are the best. Zero law enforcement, zero traffic, 300 days of sunshine a year, no bikers, no deer or other animal waiting to total your car.... the day trips to go skiing in Andorra will forever be in my memory.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

As i've said before, hard to believe BMW M walked right into that predictable shit feedback. Should have had the race team set it up for a given track, host a track day, then sent them onto mountain roads with cars setup for that context. AMG, Porsche GT, Corvette, seemingly every other performance car manufacturer does this sort of thing. Stacks the deck in their favor. Reviews would have been just a bit different

But perhaps M just thought that the value of the car and its performance potential would be self evident to (at least) some 700-800 enthusiasts worldwide, so they didn't care what Clarkson said. But yet they welcomed a comparison test to a 991 RS, probably with Porsche Motorsport engineers lurking behind the cameras... anyways, who knows. Enthusiasts are finally finding out what the deal is

Absolutely. They offered a real 3W track suspension with the pros and the cons. Instead, seeing the reviews, they should have offered EDC on steroids so reviewers only have to press a button.

You see a similar thing in Lightning Lap, where some cars (starting with a P) get a trailer of new tires and 'dealer optional wheel/tire combos' to set fast laptimes and then other cars show up 'as they were', it throws off the comparison.

Then again, I still remember the threads when the GTS was announced. Pretty much the same thing that happened with the M2 CS: the car could cure world hunger but it's a BMW for 130k so people's only comment is 'for that I'd buy a GT3', not realizing 130k is mildly optioned Carrera S territory.
We are in a BMW forum, but whenever BMW tries making something special all they get is 100% hatred. I wish the mods that are so active in the G8X section were also as active removing comments from known trolls.


Edit:
I often wonder if in other car forums you run into the same phenomena. In the Vette forum, or the Camaro forum, or the Mustang forum, is it chock full of retards that fill the boards when the ZR1 is announced, or the ZL1 1LE is announced, or the GT500 is announced, complaining long before anyone has driven the car they're just spewing hate towards it?
"oh for the price of a ZL1 1LE I'd have a base M3"
"for the price of a GT500 I'd have a 992 with zero options'
and so on and so forth.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 786

Regarding your "GT" settings, what do you mean by the car struggled on roundabouts? I need to figure out the ideal street settings for this car from a ride height and damper perspective. It will be exclusively street driven (as i kart for track thrills) so needs to be setup for Dallas roads, which are about as bad as it gets. I'm thinking to raise it as high as possible and figure out the ideal damper settings to allow for max compliance. It needs to "breathe with the road" to be effective down here.

It was very loosey-goosey (not to get too technical...) and understeer-y as compared to factory street or track settings. Remember accelerating hard through a long left-right sweeping on ramp and during the transition it wanted to understeer through the 2nd section. Just entirely at odds with how the car behaves with proper performance damper settings.

Keep in mind I landed on those settings with temporary road trip comfort as the only priority. There was no science about it.

In your case, starting with street factory settings and slowly relaxing from there to find some sort of balance between compliance and performance would be the approach. I'd ditch the front splitter (lowest orange element) first and see if sufficient before adjusting ride height up above street factory setting. 2c.

My previous owner never installed the original lower splitter, probably for this reason.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You see a similar thing in Lightning Lap, where some cars (starting with a P) get a trailer of new tires and 'dealer optional wheel/tire combos' to set fast laptimes and then other cars show up 'as they were', it throws off the comparison.

Yes, as do the capabilities of the test drivers. According to the C&D LL crew, my big ole american girl is supposed to be seconds faster than the GTS around VIR. Love my big ole american girl, but that's a good laugh.

When Pobst can hop in Day Laborer's car for some fun laps and outpace the C&D LL tester by multiple seconds over the ~1/2 of the lap (before the courses diverge) AND absent any setup adjustments by Pobst, well... maybe C&D didn't get the best out of it. (Cue up about 0:25 on the top C&D vid, 4:35 in the Pobst vid below.)

But the C&D test is what's been cited as representative of the GTS's track performance potential.

I have my issues with the annual Motor Trend track testing format as well, but some of the GTS lap times from back around release are a joke.

[786]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I grew up with those roads in Spain and they are the best. Zero law enforcement, zero traffic, 300 days of sunshine a year, no bikers, no deer or other animal waiting to total your car.... the day trips to go skiing in Andorra will forever be in my memory.

That sounds like paradise.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I often wonder if in other car forums you run into the same phenomena. In the Vette forum, or the Camaro forum, or the Mustang forum, is it chock full of retards that fill the boards when the ZR1 is announced, or the ZL1 1LE is announced, or the GT500 is announced, complaining long before anyone has driven the car they're just spewing hate towards it? "oh for the price of a ZL1 1LE I'd have a base M3" "for the price of a GT500 I'd have a 992 with zero options' and so on and so forth.

I'll tell you on the Porsche forums at least, they love their cars and support the brand wholeheartedly. Even with the GT3s blowing their motors left and right people stayed loyal to the brand. But Porsche did provide the 10yr warranty etc. so that helps.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

It was very loosey-goosey (not to get too technical...) and understeer-y as compared to factory street or track settings. Remember accelerating hard through a long left-right sweeping on ramp and during the transition it wanted to understeer through the 2nd section. Just entirely at odds with how the car behaves with proper performance damper settings.

Keep in mind I landed on those settings with temporary road trip comfort as the only priority. There was no science about it.

In your case, starting with street factory settings and slowly relaxing from there to find some sort of balance between compliance and performance would be the approach. I'd ditch the front splitter (lowest orange element) first and see if sufficient before adjusting ride height up above street factory setting. 2c.

My previous owner never installed the original lower splitter, probably for this reason.

Ah, I see gotcha. I will do that then, start with the factory street settings and go from there. I have some good race shops near me to help tinker with the suspension as well. I was thinking to immediately remove the orange lower splitter as well and see how that works. I might add a plastic rep and just keep the original in the garage.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 786

Ah, I see gotcha. I will do that then, start with the factory street settings and go from there. I have some good race shops near me to help tinker with the suspension as well. I was thinking to immediately remove the orange lower splitter as well and see how that works. I might add a plastic rep and just keep the original in the garage.

GTS should have come with a set of these in the trunk for tinkering purposes. Mine lives on these.

https://www.quickjack.com/uses/home-car-lift/

[4play]

Originally Posted by 786

Regarding your "GT" settings, what do you mean by the car struggled on roundabouts? I need to figure out the ideal street settings for this car from a ride height and damper perspective. It will be exclusively street driven (as i kart for track thrills) so needs to be setup for Dallas roads, which are about as bad as it gets. I'm thinking to raise it as high as possible and figure out the ideal damper settings to allow for max compliance. It needs to "breathe with the road" to be effective down here.

Remove the orange spoiler and make sure the car is at "road" height.

Suspension settings at road/Nurburgring. I wouldn't go very much softer unless you literally are never going to push the car beyond 6/10ths (which seem unlikely in a GTS).

Rough patches of road are still jarring (my wife hates the way the car rides), but it's livable.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We are in a BMW forum, but whenever BMW tries making something special all they get is 100% hatred. I wish the mods that are so active in the G8X section were also as active removing comments from known trolls.


Edit:
I often wonder if in other car forums you run into the same phenomena. In the Vette forum, or the Camaro forum, or the Mustang forum, is it chock full of retards that fill the boards when the ZR1 is announced, or the ZL1 1LE is announced, or the GT500 is announced, complaining long before anyone has driven the car they're just spewing hate towards it?
"oh for the price of a ZL1 1LE I'd have a base M3"
"for the price of a GT500 I'd have a 992 with zero options'
and so on and so forth.

lol, I'm not sure.. At the track everyone seems pretty happy with what they brought. I always thought that was because dudes, you know, purchased the cars they wanted, not the ones that made them feel inferior. But sometimes this forum could convince otherwise.

M owners do seem pound for pound the most insecure and self loathing forum crowd, but we're also the most entertaining and lively. That's why the Porsche fanboys can't stay away.

[786]

Originally Posted by 4play

Remove the orange spoiler and make sure the car is at "road" height.

Suspension settings at road/Nurburgring. I wouldn't go very much softer unless you literally are never going to push the car beyond 6/10ths (which seem unlikely in a GTS).

Rough patches of road are still jarring (my wife hates the way the car rides), but it's livable.

Thanks, any idea what "road" height is? I will definitely push the car so don't want to go too soft either. Livable works, car won't be a dd by any stretch.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

M owners do seem pound for pound the most insecure and self loathing forum crowd, but we're also the most entertaining and lively. That's why the Porsche fanboys can't stay away.

[Gomeler]

The car shipped in the road height. You have to remove the collars and drop the perches to the "race" height. Chances are your car is in the road height by default.

I want to say there are some fender to ground height measurements in the supplementary GTS manual detailing these heights.