Anyone else get banned from the G8X section for making fun of its looks?

[stein_325i]

Our favorite designer Dukec has once again opened his mouth to talk about design, and again it sounds as if he's speaking out of his a**.

BMW design boss: ‘it’s not our goal to please everyone’

I also think you all will appreciate this member's response to the quotes from Dukec in another thread, he seems to feel the same way we do.

Originally Posted by thebmw

"We have, I think, fans rather than customers,"
Adrian van Hooydonk is not too smart. Customers are fans, fans are customers. Piss either of them off... Looks like he lives in a nice little bubble in Munich.

BMW's design boss Domagoj Dukec is acutely aware of the noise surrounding the company's creations. "I'm reading social media and press, and I can see that some people are wondering where BMW is heading, but I can assure you that we have a clear vision about where we're going. We all love the brand."
Dukec is a liar. He stated before that he is consciously doing away with tradition and BMW design cues. That is not someone who loves the brand. That is someone who thinks the brand's traditions are crap. He wants to blow them all up and come up with designs that make absolutely no sense, simply to give the middle finger to traditional BMW design. Don't believe me? Ask Frank Stephenson, the former head of BMW design and the designer of some of the most classic cars in automotive history.

"Not really," he tells Top Gear. "I've been in this business for over 20 years. You know how it is in design - everybody has an opinion. That's normal. If you want to create something that stands out, it must be distinguished and it has to be different."
Ducek is an idiot if he really thinks this. Virtually everyone and every journalist and every designer that has the balls to speak up has categorically panned the new 4 and the iX. That has literally never happened before to that extent with BMW (even when Bangle was there). Reason? The designs are non-symmetrical, non-congruent, lack cohesiveness, and lack an underlying theme. That is not progress at all. That is kindergarten scrapbook design.

OK. But is he absolutely adamant that they're plotting the right course? "You can create something beautiful, and we also have cars which are just pretty. But there are some customers that, if you want to reach them, you have to stand out. You have to create something that is not in-line; maybe not like an everyday car or an everyday product, but that's exactly the reason."
Are you kidding me? The 4 is beautiful? Man, his wife must look like an f'ing beaver. And not the beaver that's desirable! Now he says that the new 4 and iX are not an everyday car? Seriously, is this guy on drugs or really that stupid and arrogant (or both)?

He points to BMW's heritage – recent heritage – and the Bangle-era BMWs which were "so criticised" at the time, now being looked back on with fondness, like the E60 5 Series. "That was breaking with everything so far [up to that point]," Dukec tells us.
Dukec still doesn't get it. Bangle was criticized for being different. Dukec is criticized because he has made the 4 look like as schizophrenic as a Picasso. There are all types of shapes and sizes that don't line up or match. Dukec may literally be the male reincarnation of "Karen". So detached from reality and blames the customer for their "opinion".

"Now, this is a special time. It is different and distinguished [the new cars], I think this is something we are used to. It is not our goal to please everyone in the world. You can't make a design which pleases everyone. But you have to please your customers," he adds.
Ok Karen. Piss off everyone and blame it on them. Karen Dukec...

"Not all our products get the same critics," Dukec said. "You can see that on something as polarising like the kidneys on the 4 Series, 20 per cent of people are liking it. That fits to the type of customers we are targeting.
Hilarious. He literally said 80% of people hate his design and he is proud of it. He is a total KAREN! The last 4 series was probably loved by 80%+. I don't know a single person that did not like the E92 and that was "different" at the time!

"It's impossible to create something where everybody will cheer and say 'this is the most beautiful car in the world'," Dukec said. (To which we say 'E38 7 Series'. Wonder where the group called 'nostalgic curmudgeons with no money' fits into BMW's fan base?)
OMG, this guy is a designer? There are many cars that have been universally loved. He is such a shi*ty designer that he thinks that everyone hates all designs. No, they hate your designs, Karen Dukec.

Van Hooydonk had more to say. "It's really fantastic [if you have fans]. It means you have people that not just buy your products, but love what you do. Of course, if they love what you do, the minute you change it, they might have an issue with it.
No Van Hooy Lewis and the News, they have issues with cars that look like beavers having an orgasm.

Original Post

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by swagon

Porsche doesn't seem "lost" because the 911 still looks like a 911 and the GT3 is still NA and manual.

With Cayenne coupes and four-pot "lease from" Macan specials, they're really relying on the badge and clout as well.

Shit, even Ferrari, the merch brand, is doing an SUV. The heck is going on?

Oh yeah, Porsche is definitely relying on their badge, but they are at least putting that SUV money back into their cars. BMW is just milking their SUV's while cheapening their sports cars (DCT loss being a prime example).

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Meanwhile in Stuttgart...

Not sure how I missed this but that looks awesome. I'm definitely interested to see if and how they will bring any F1 technology into their AMG cars. It seems the next generation AMG GT will likely be influenced by the Project One as the clay models borrow some styling cues from the hypercar.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Oh yeah, Porsche is definitely relying on their badge, but they are at least putting that SUV money back into their cars. BMW is just milking their SUV's while cheapening their sports cars (DCT loss being a prime example).

Yeah. BMW's issue is they have messed up their flagship car(s).

Take me back to the early 2000s. I've got a list of cars I'd like to buy brand new, each example twice to last me 50 years.

[icegrill]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

Just embarrassing. Reviewing an automatic gearbox for no one who cares. That felt like a tutorial, ///M for Dummies.

I know it's like "D is normal drive"

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

All the Germans other than Porsche are lost in my opinion. But at the end of the day, they have their badges to fall on, and because of that, they will sell sadly while going further and further off the deep end.

I don't believe Porsche or Benz has lot their way. You can argue a bit with Audi but they have always had their little niche they are good with and never strayed away from it. Benz, maybe if you consider what they are doing with AMG but unlike BMW, Benz AMG didn't leave F1, they are still going head to head with Porsche when it comes to their high end cars, which not many brands can have the opportunity of saying.

BMW on the other hand has done about everything bad in terms of not only marketing but also the way they have gone about conveying their message.

Your post from Dukec is an extremely good example of this. He STILL believes what he is doing is right and in two years, we will see whether we are right or are the guys at BMW are so blind at this point they believe what they are doing is okay. Then of course we will go down the route of, "They are going to blame COVID" or "They are going to blame fans for not understanding". BMW has the same current issue has a lot of companies in the world these days. They (BMW) believes they know better than the buyers and there are a good portion of us that have openly said "We don't like this car" and it will only take a tank in sales to get them to understand. Sadly, it's BMW so when that time comes, they will make it so leasing is extremely viable to shore up the numbers they lost then shove in a bunch of Baby M cars in the mix to make it look like they sold way more than they actually have. Watch this, I can almost guarantee it will happen.

There are enough well known BMW lovers on IG (or most social media actually) has been extremely vocal about their distaste of the G8x. BMW has completely lost their way. If they needed to make a video about a TRADITIONAL AUTOMATIC, they are beyond lost at this point.

Unlike GM, whom when it comes to their sports cars, they are very dedicated in making them always track focused without giving too much to the bean counters. Even though I am NOT a American brand person, you can make a very good argument that all of the sports cars coming out of GM and Ford have been extremely good for their money (build quality aside of course). The new mid engine Corvette is the standout currently with some track focused stuff on the way.

You can say certain things with Porsche isn't completely right. They are going down too hard on the electronic side for their cars other than the Cayman/Boxster but unlike BMW, Porsche didn't compromise the two things that matter most. Driving dynamics and their design history and language. Yes, part of it is EU's extremely hard environmental laws, which I have a thing against actually, Porsche by most standards haven't allowed it to comprise too much.

I will say this again, my current F80 is going to be my last BMW. Until Dukec is gone as BMW M head, there is no chance in hell I will ever get back into another BMW M personally.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I don't believe Porsche or Benz has lot their way. You can argue a bit with Audi but they have always had their little niche they are good with and never strayed away from it. Benz, maybe if you consider what they are doing with AMG but unlike BMW, Benz AMG didn't leave F1, they are still going head to head with Porsche when it comes to their high end cars, which not many brands can have the opportunity of saying.

BMW on the other hand has done about everything bad in terms of not only marketing but also the way they have gone about conveying their message.

Your post from Dukec is an extremely good example of this. He STILL believes what he is doing is right and in two years, we will see whether we are right or are the guys at BMW are so blind at this point they believe what they are doing is okay. Then of course we will go down the route of, "They are going to blame COVID" or "They are going to blame fans for not understanding". BMW has the same current issue has a lot of companies in the world these days. They (BMW) believes they know better than the buyers and there are a good portion of us that have openly said "We don't like this car" and it will only take a tank in sales to get them to understand. Sadly, it's BMW so when that time comes, they will make it so leasing is extremely viable to shore up the numbers they lost then shove in a bunch of Baby M cars in the mix to make it look like they sold way more than they actually have. Watch this, I can almost guarantee it will happen.

There are enough well known BMW lovers on IG (or most social media actually) has been extremely vocal about their distaste of the G8x. BMW has completely lost their way. If they needed to make a video about a TRADITIONAL AUTOMATIC, they are beyond lost at this point.

Unlike GM, whom when it comes to their sports cars, they are very dedicated in making them always track focused without giving too much to the bean counters. Even though I am NOT a American brand person, you can make a very good argument that all of the sports cars coming out of GM and Ford have been extremely good for their money (build quality aside of course). The new mid engine Corvette is the standout currently with some track focused stuff on the way.

You can say certain things with Porsche isn't completely right. They are going down too hard on the electronic side for their cars other than the Cayman/Boxster but unlike BMW, Porsche didn't compromise the two things that matter most. Driving dynamics and their design history and language. Yes, part of it is EU's extremely hard environmental laws, which I have a thing against actually, Porsche by most standards haven't allowed it to comprise too much.

I will say this again, my current F80 is going to be my last BMW. Until Dukec is gone as BMW M head, there is no chance in hell I will ever get back into another BMW M personally.

Porsche definitely hasn't that's why I excluded them. Of course with EPS and Turbos some engagement/feel will be lost, but they still put in a lot of time and effort into creating sublime products. They are still devoted to their sports cars, even if it means selling SUV's, hell they are devoted to ICE in the 911, I think I read they are gonna increase displacement of their flat-6 to comply with EU regs.

You're definitely right that Benz isn't lost when it comes F1 and tech, they are just I think getting a bit too greedy as they have some quality issues that really need to be addressed and fixed. The AMG team is definitely working hard, I'm just still not sure how well their loyal customers/enthusiasts will feel about 4-cylinders, its just a huge departure. Going from an 8 to 6 is a lot more tolerable, from 8 to 4 (even with all the tech) is a hard pill to swallow. A lot of reason to get the C63 was the engine.

BMW is definitely the most lost of the brands, they've sold their soul. Audi isn't lost per say but lets be honest, other than the R8 and RS6, they aren't doing much worthy of attention, and putting the engine in front of the front axle will never help. Maybe EV's are Audi's chance to get ahead, with actual RWD based cars. It seems they will always be a third wheel to BMW and MB.

[R N M]

I still hate the E60 5series and it has never grown on me. The E60 M5 is OK.

Bangle at least actually had originality and talent with his flame surfacing designs. He had some really cool designs like the Z4 that look better and more futuristic than cars out today.

Ducec basically just slapped on some hideous grills copied Lexus tails, VW headlights and called it a day. Not to mention getting rid of BMW traditional side character line and Hofmeister kink.
There is NO design language or any original concepts that all the great designers possess.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Porsche definitely hasn't that's why I excluded them. Of course with EPS and Turbos some engagement/feel will be lost, but they still put in a lot of time and effort into creating sublime products. They are still devoted to their sports cars, even if it means selling SUV's, hell they are devoted to ICE in the 911, I think I read they are gonna increase displacement of their flat-6 to comply with EU regs.

I think this is likely because the team @ Porsche has threaded the business management needle: all the benefits of a big corp sponsor with none of the drawbacks.

Anybody that's worked in product knows the general trade off:

* Corps give you lots of security, economies of scale, access to people, parts, and partners you otherwise would never have, but ...

* Corps also dilute your product pipeline, prevent anything remotely risky, layer you down in bureaucracy, make it hard to hire good people, etc

Given Porsche more/less bought & owns VAG versus the other way around, Porsche has been able to create this protected niche group that can siphon resources away from the mothership (emissions, parts, people, R&D €/$, etc), but also stay completely insulated from VAG bullshit. You can really see how this is true with Audi in BEVs: they've run into most of the same problems as VW with software, batteries, systems, etc - but Porsche has gone down a completely separate path in both systems and software; you'll see many VAG parts in porsches, but not many porsche innovations in VAG (unless they want them to be).

In short, Porsche product people have the dream setup and their products reflect that ... but I have feeling with the current board fights and Diess challenging for more power that's about to end ... we'll see!

[swagon]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Given Porsche more/less bought & owns VAG versus the other way around, Porsche has been able to create this protected niche group that can siphon resources away from the mothership (emissions, parts, people, R&D €/$, etc), but also stay completely insulated from VAG bullshit. You can really see how this is true with Audi in BEVs: they've run into most of the same problems as VW with software, batteries, systems, etc - but Porsche has gone down a completely separate path in both systems and software; you'll see many VAG parts in porsches, but not many porsche innovations in VAG (unless they want them to be).

In short, Porsche product people have the dream setup and their products reflect that ... but I have feeling with the current board fights and Diess challenging for more power that's about to end ... we'll see!

I don't know much about VAG EVs and their issues - if you've got link, send it - but I can confirm from my first-hand experience that there is a lot of bullshit going on in the VW Group. Deep down, they act like totally separate entities that do not want to have anything to do with their "friends."

Every passenger car company in the Group is greedy and they more-or-less hate each other. Without naming the opposite party, I can tell you that Porsche earns a metric fuckton selling parts (production and aftersales) to another brand... And that manufacturer wanted to do stuff on their own, which would have saved them a lot of money while employing local businesses, but Porsche said NOPE, you must buy more of our parts or you don't get anything from us.

It's a great system for a big company like Porsche that's got a lot of leverage, I tell you that, and is one of the main reasons why Porsche is pretty much on top of the tech advancement, quality & reliability at VAG.

[dms-01]

Meh

[AD18]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Just watched, looks real good. A lot of interesting stuff in the press release, seems like a lot of focus went into making these excellent track vehicles.

Awesome, I was actually tuned in right until the end, they were showcasing all the right things, can't say the same about BMW's latest PR...
Shame we'll never see any on this side of the pond but certainly looks promising, good on them!

[AD18]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

Yeah, you'd have to be a ///MDummy to buy this pile of crap lol

When the DCT came out it was literally the best of both worlds and a huge improvement over SMGII/III. But this ZF8 auto slushbox stuff is just not motorsports in any way. Notice the lack of enthusiasm from these "technical" guys. I mean, at least with Biermann, you can hear his enthusiasm and pride come through. These guys come off really forced and uncomfortable. No pride at all in these cars. What a way to end the era of ICE...

Think I was reading this ZF8 takes twice as long to shift than the outgoing DCT? That speaks volumes to me, this was not the choice of auto that should have ended up in this car.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by dms-01

Meh

Agree, I like how the previous gen looked. They aren't horrible though and the red one is pretty nice.

[dms-01]

I don't like the rear of of the red one, reminds of those stupid GT cars BMW made. Not even sure what the name is for them as they are in between a sedan and a hatchback. Looks like the entire back end of that red one opens up whereas the blue is a traditional sedan with a trunk.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by swagon

C-class not having more than two liters of displacement is much worse than our Munich lads sniffing cocaine in their design studios.

Cadillac is doing a hail Mary and it really shows. The Germans are taking a different approach.

Even if those 2 liters are augmented by 7x (probably 8x) F1 World Championship hybrid tech, with Lewis as the face of that powertrain evolution??

Good luck competing against AMG & Lewis with the target audience. Believe the Munich lads probably should have invested in motorsport instead of cocaine.

If they stick with 6 (I doubt it), BMW's 2 cylinder "advantage" won't mean anything to the audience they're now targeting.

Agreed on all next gens being hybrid. The G8X design over substance approach looks more like the hail mary. They're about to be walloped by AMG on hybrid tech and all associated marketing, but maybe they can preempt with beavers, M town passes, and hype rims.

For me, the moral of the story on Cadillac is that they know their V audience is limited. They'll get a handful of converts from M and AMG with these Blackwings, maybe a few Panamera buyers.

But as final ice V series models they still decided to give their customer base the very best possible https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-gas-v-series/

Looks aside, compare the performance substance of the Blackwings and press release to everything G8X.

[secretanchitman]

Originally Posted by minn19

Agree, I like how the previous gen looked. They aren't horrible though and the red one is pretty nice.

It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by secretanchitman

It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!

Would take the ATS Blackwing over the G8X. No hesitation.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by secretanchitman

It's better looking than the G80/G82, that is for sure!

Agreed, I didn't think it needed to be said.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Even if those 2 liters are augmented by 7x (probably 8x) F1 World Championship hybrid tech, with Lewis as the face of that powertrain evolution??

Good luck competing against AMG & Lewis with the target audience. Believe the Munich lads probably should have invested in motorsport instead of cocaine.

If they stick with 6 (I doubt it), BMW's 2 cylinder "advantage" won't mean anything to the audience they're now targeting.

Agreed on all next gens being hybrid. The G8X design over substance approach looks more like the hail mary. They're about to be walloped by AMG on hybrid tech and all associated marketing, but maybe they can preempt with beavers, M town passes, and hype rims.

For me, the moral of the story on Cadillac is that they know their V audience is limited. They'll get a handful of converts from M and AMG with these Blackwings, maybe a few Panamera buyers.

But as final ice V series models they still decided to give their customer base the very best possible https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-gas-v-series/

Looks aside, compare the performance substance of the Blackwings and press release to everything G8X.

I probably wouldn't be as excited about big engines had I grown up in the US where even Ford Transits have twin-turbo V6s.

It can have as much torque as possible, I just don't see how a hybrid four-pot can be as exciting as a big gas V8.

When the time comes, I'll attempt to care about performance hybrids and EVs; got many decades left for that. At the end of the day, it's all we're gonna have in the future so I want to ride the last bit of the ICE wave out as long as I can. Totally wouldn't mind an EV hatchback for driving round town, though.

The CT5V does seem like a total bargain given the performance and price. Good on them. They just need to find some people to buy their product which has been an issue for V Cadillacs, hasn't it.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by swagon

I probably wouldn't be as excited about big engines had I grown up in the US where even Ford Transits have twin-turbo V6s.

It can have as much torque as possible, I just don't see how a hybrid four-pot can be as exciting as a big gas V8.

When the time comes, I'll attempt to care about performance hybrids and EVs; got many decades left for that. At the end of the day, it's all we're gonna have in the future so I want to ride the last bit of the ICE wave out as long as I can. Totally wouldn't mind an EV hatchback for driving round town, though.

The CT5V does seem like a total bargain given the performance and price. Good on them. They just need to find some people to buy their product which has been an issue for V Cadillacs, hasn't it.

You're preaching to the choir on V8's.

Borrowed ATS-V sales #'s from a Cadillac forum

2016 - 2018 ATS-V
Total Sedan 2419
Total Coupe 1902
Total All 4321

16,057 F80 M3's sold in the U.S. for reference.

[MFNATIK]

BTW, thought I'd share a real technical transmission video from the former BMW M division that made real M cars