2017 M3 Comp package owner - steering feel lackluster

[stevehifi]

Hi Guys,

Just bought a 2017 M3 Comp package, and now have 320 miles on the car (bought new). So still in the break in stages.
I came from a 2008 M3 sedan, and I noticed that the steering feedback is almost nonexistent on the new m3...
I have great feedback from the rear of the car (probably due to how they bolted the subframe directly to the chassis) but the front is vague.. I turn the wheel and can't tell where the wheels are pointing.

Is this a normal behavior of the electrical power steering of the F80 m3 or is it because the car/tires hasn't really broken in fully? My old car had the semi hydraulic steering and that was much better... but the new car... wow not impressed.

Steve

[brianeck]

Your take on the steering is one of the major downsides of the car by many reviewers since it was first released. Its a product of too much computer and not enough true road feel. You're right to feel the hydraulic steering on your 2008 was better. . . Simply put, it was. This is probably one of the only two things from the previous generation which was, truly, and unquestionably better. The other is the v8 sound (I hope I didn't just ruin your thread lol).

I find that "Comfort" is intangibly the easiest for spirited driving and I think I have the easiest time discerning which way I'm pointing, but I also find comfort very "uncomfortable" on the highway because I find it to be too finicky/twitchy.

[Sassicaia]

I still find it interesting that in Chris Harris says the steering this generation is better then the previous. "much better then the E92 which was artificial"

I never drove the E92, but I do think the E46 has better steering than the F8x

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

I still find it interesting that in Chris Harris says the steering this generation is better then the previous. "much better then the E92 which was artificial"

I never drove the E92, but I do think the E46 has better steering than the F8x

I actually prefer the current steering over that of the previous ///M cars. It just goes to show that it is not an objective measure (...unlike power, torque, braking ability, etc.). The way something feels is entirely subjective, so people need to get away from making definitive statements about the old steering being "better". I used a gun analogy a couple of days ago. I love my M&P Shield 40 for its off duty/concealed carry characteristics. It fits well in my hand, it's comfortable, it handles various velocities well and I shoot well with it. Other people may not care for it and may prefer the feel of the Springfield or the Glock because of the way those guns feel or the way those guns handle the velocities that those individuals like to shoot. It doesn't make my M&P better or worse, but it does make it the best fit for me. It's the same with steering feel or suspension feel. Some like it, and some don't. Everybody operates on different levels of sensitivity and with varying preferences.

[stevehifi]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Your take on the steering is one of the major downsides of the car by many reviewers since it was first released. Its a product of too much computer and not enough true road feel. You're right to feel the hydraulic steering on your 2008 was better. . . Simply put, it was. This is probably one of the only two things from the previous generation which was, truly, and unquestionably better. The other is the v8 sound (I hope I didn't just ruin your thread lol).

I find that "Comfort" is intangibly the easiest for spirited driving and I think I have the easiest time discerning which way I'm pointing, but I also find comfort very "uncomfortable" on the highway because I find it to be too finicky/twitchy.

Yes but I thought that they would of addressed this in the competition package, I guess it wasn't...

don't get me wrong, I still think the car is amazing but it's disappointing that steering feel is so deficient in a car of this calibre...

the v8 did sound good but the grunty turbo i6 is intoxicating as well.

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Yes but I thought that they would of addressed this in the competition package, I guess it wasn't...

don't get me wrong, I still think the car is amazing but it's disappointing that steering feel is so deficient in a car of this calibre...

the v8 did sound good but the grunty turbo i6 is intoxicating as well.

The E9x M3 had less torque which makes this car much snappier starting from 1800RPM. That's what made me buy it, not the BHP but rather, how fast it can go from 0-60

[Ilikemike]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I actually prefer the current steering over that of the previous ///M cars. It just goes to show that it is not an objective measure (...unlike power, torque, braking ability, etc.). The way something feels is entirely subjective, so people need to get away from making definitive statements about the old steering being "better". I used to gun analogy a couple of days ago. I love my M&P Shield 40 for its off duty/concealed carry characteristics. It fits well in my hand, it's comfortable, it handles various velocities well and I shoot well with it. Other people may not care for it and may prefer the feel of the Springfield or the Glock because of the way those guns feel or the way those guns handle the velocities that those individuals like to shoot. It doesn't make my M&P better or worse, but it does make it the best fit for me. It's the same with steering feel or suspension feel. Some like it, and some don't. Everybody operates on different levels of sensitivity and with varying preferences.

Agreed, most people treat their evaluations as descriptions. I've watched most of the videos on the M4 and I'd estimate 15-20% state that the steering feel is terrific to really good to at least better than the e90 series.... I've got time to spare waiting for my M4 to arrive, hopefully, in mid-December. Too bad it doesn't hit the mark for OP, even with the ZCP, although I have read different threads that suggest tires can improve the feel.... I was not really impressed with my e92, too light, but like anything, ya get used to it and come to love it!

[onetrader]

Eh. Steering feel feels fine to me. My brother's 135i does have more direct steering but I like the different steering modes and am generally pretty content with it.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I actually prefer the current steering over that of the previous ///M cars. It just goes to show that it is not an objective measure (...unlike power, torque, braking ability, etc.). The way something feels is entirely subjective, so people need to get away from making definitive statements about the old steering being "better". I used to gun analogy a couple of days ago. I love my M&P Shield 40 for its off duty/concealed carry characteristics. It fits well in my hand, it's comfortable, it handles various velocities well and I shoot well with it. Other people may not care for it and may prefer the feel of the Springfield or the Glock because of the way those guns feel or the way those guns handle the velocities that those individuals like to shoot. It doesn't make my M&P better or worse, but it does make it the best fit for me. It's the same with steering feel or suspension feel. Some like it, and some don't. Everybody operates on different levels of sensitivity and with varying preferences.

I completely disagree.
What we are talking about is very much measurable. It's steering feedback.
Steering feedback is measured in terms of how much of the road texture, what the tire are doing and suspension loading is transmitted back to the steering wheel.

EPS is programmed to differentiate (in this instance, poorly) between what they call good feedback (lateral suspension loading) vs. bad feedback (road imperfections) and filter out the bad feedback.

Those of us who prefer no filtering think the steering is worse now, those who like the filtering think it's better. Although we can all agree that Porsche is doing a better job with their filtering and the feel of their EPS system overall.

One thing that you cannot argue is that all this is subjective. It is not.
People having different preferences does not make the subject subjective. It's not like the smell of a perfume or which color you like better. If you prefer a turbo engine with low end torque and a flat torque curve, and I prefer an NA engine with no low end punch but screaming high end power, does that mean that HP and torque are now subjective measurements?

[CanAutM3]

Do you have wheel spacers on your car?

[swagon]

What is steering feel anyway?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I completely disagree.
What we are talking about is very much measurable. It's steering feedback.
Steering feedback is measured in terms of how much of the road texture, what the tire are doing and suspension loading is transmitted back to the steering wheel.

You can disagree. That is your prerogative..............but you can't put a measure on how somebody's physiology interprets something. It's like telling somebody that a particular food item tastes fantastic [when their taste buds just don't like it] just because some highly rated food magazine states that it's the best tasting food item in the world. What somebody interprets as "feedback" is going to vary based on their own personal sensitivities. The way my race bike is set up depends on my physiology and my personal sensitivities; the suspension is set up based on what I feel when I'm on that bike. Somebody else can get on my bike and not feel anything (..from a racer's sense), and not have the same kind of confidence because their body is interpreting things differently than my body. The feel of a car is no different. Hell, even auto-rag reviewers can't all agree on things such as feel. One reviewer loves it, and the other one doesn't. There's no right or wrong answer, only preference.

Originally Posted by Ramos

One thing that you cannot argue is that all this is subjective. It is not.
People having different preferences does not make the subject subjective. It's not like the smell of a perfume or which color you like better. If you prefer a turbo engine with low end torque and a flat torque curve, and I prefer an NA engine with no low end punch but screaming high end power, does that mean that HP and torque are now subjective measurements?

Your analogy does not fit, and your analogy is an objective one.

[stevehifi]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I completely disagree.
What we are talking about is very much measurable. It's steering feedback.
Steering feedback is measured in terms of how much of the road texture, what the tire are doing and suspension loading is transmitted back to the steering wheel.

EPS is programmed to differentiate (in this instance, poorly) between what they call good feedback (lateral suspension loading) vs. bad feedback (road imperfections) and filter out the bad feedback.

Those of us who prefer no filtering think the steering is worse now, those who like the filtering think it's better. Although we can all agree that Porsche is doing a better job with their filtering and the feel of their EPS system overall.

One thing that you cannot argue is that all this is subjective. It is not.
People having different preferences does not make the subject subjective. It's not like the smell of a perfume or which color you like better. If you prefer a turbo engine with low end torque and a flat torque curve, and I prefer an NA engine with no low end punch but screaming high end power, does that mean that HP and torque are now subjective measurements?

Agree completely.

Steering feel is the feeling of the road texture through the steering wheel, the feeling of the tires rubbing the road surface and the feel of the car's grip at various speeds. This gives confidence and feedback for the driver when the car changes direction and/or increases speed.

From my personal experience, the e9x was superior since it was a semi-hydraulic setup, and i've driven many other cars, porsches, vettes, audis.. so I think have a good overall sense of what feels right. Of course the e9x wasn't perfect, my old 1990 e30 m3.. now that was something.

somehow the feel or feedback in the F80 has been 'filtered or damped out'. Maybe it's the shocks or some hardware in the steering rack/column. Hard to say.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I actually prefer the current steering over that of the previous ///M cars. It just goes to show that it is not an objective measure (...unlike power, torque, braking ability, etc.). The way something feels is entirely subjective, so people need to get away from making definitive statements about the old steering being "better". I used a gun analogy a couple of days ago. I love my M&P Shield 40 for its off duty/concealed carry characteristics. It fits well in my hand, it's comfortable, it handles various velocities well and I shoot well with it. Other people may not care for it and may prefer the feel of the Springfield or the Glock because of the way those guns feel or the way those guns handle the velocities that those individuals like to shoot. It doesn't make my M&P better or worse, but it does make it the best fit for me. It's the same with steering feel or suspension feel. Some like it, and some don't. Everybody operates on different levels of sensitivity and with varying preferences.

I agree with you on the analogy when it comes to the steering, and as far as the duty weapon analogy I prefer the Springfield since it fits my hand better and I can shoot very accurate with it over the Glock. But it all comes down to the individual and what makes you feel comfortable and what you prefer and what feels better to you. So the steering feel always comes down to the individual and opinions will be mixed on the subject, just like everything else in life!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

Agree completely.

Steering feel is the feeling of the road texture through the steering wheel, the feeling of the tires rubbing the road surface and the feel of the car's grip at various speeds. This gives confidence and feedback for the driver when the car changes direction and/or increases speed.

From my personal experience, the e9x was superior since it was a semi-hydraulic setup, and i've driven many other cars, porsches, vettes, audis.. so I think have a good overall sense of what feels right. Of course the e9x wasn't perfect, my old 1990 e30 m3.. now that was something.

somehow the feel or feedback in the F80 has been 'filtered or damped out'. Maybe it's the shocks or some hardware in the steering rack/column. Hard to say.

What does "semi-hydraulic" mean ?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

I agree with you on the analogy when it comes to the steering, and as far as the duty weapon analogy I prefer the Springfield since it fits my hand better and I can shoot very accurate with it over the Glock. But it all comes down to the individual and what makes you feel comfortable and what you prefer and what feels better to you. So the steering feel always comes down to the individual and opinions will be mixed on the subject, just like everything else in life!

XD9/40? Does your department issue duty weapons or are you allowed to carry whatever you like? Unfortunately the CHP issues only one approved duty weapon (..the S&W TSW .40), so there's no other choice. The ISU department was/are testing the M&P .40, but whether or not that trickles down to patrol remains to be seen. As of now, academy graduates are still being issued the TSW.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

XD9/40? Does your department issue duty weapons or are you allowed to carry whatever you like? Unfortunately the CHP issues only one approved duty weapon (..the S&W TSW .40), so there's no other choice. The ISU department was/are testing the M&P .40, but whether or not that trickles down to patrol remains to be seen. As of now, academy graduates are still being issued the TSW.

Not a law enforcement agency, I work for a private cash logistics company but we are allowed to carry duty weapons of our own. So I carry an XD/45 and an XD/9 as back up, they use to issue the 9mm Beretta but the feel on that gun was very awkward for me but some guys worshipped them. How does the steering feel with your performance steering wheel, any different than before the upgrade?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

Not a law enforcement agency, I work for a private cash logistics company but we are allowed to carry duty weapons of our own. So I carry an XD/45 and an XD/9 as back up, they use to issue the 9mm Beretta but the feel on that gun was very awkward for me but some guys worshipped them. How does the steering feel with your performance steering wheel, any different than before the upgrade?

The Beretta 9 is big, clunky and heavy. One of the local departments used to issue that to all of their deputies, and small framed men and women just looked awkward with it. That department moved to the M&P though.

As for the steering wheel.......


....it's great, and I like feel in my hands (...and it brought back the nostalgia of my '05 ZCP's alcantara steering wheel). There's better positive grip, and it seems to be less affected by ambient temps. My hands sweat more with the leather wheel despite wearing driving gloves. I had IND custom modify the M Performance shift knob and alcantara boot too. They removed the carbon fiber piece and wrapped it in alcantara; I'm not a fan of superfluous amounts of carbon. I can't wait to receive it.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by stevehifi

My old car had the semi hydraulic steering and that was much better... but the new car... wow not impressed.

It sounds like you are surprised. Did you test-drive the car before buying it? Did you read the reviews? Anyway, there are plenty of used e92 M3s on the market if you decide you want to revert. I owned e46 and e92 M3s and certainly noticed a difference when I test-drove the f80 M3, but I was not taken aback as I had read reviews and many BP threads. I found the steering to be pretty much exactly as it had been described. When the f80 M3 was introduced, I was worried about turbo lag, exhaust sound, steering feel and overall size. In the end, I have not been bothered much by any of these factors.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The Beretta 9 is big, clunky and heavy. One of the local departments used to issue that to all of their deputies, and small framed men and women just looked awkward with it. That department moved to the M&P though.

As for the steering wheel.......


....it's great, and I like feel in my hands (...and it brought back the nostalgia of my '05 ZCP's alcantara steering wheel). There's better positive grip, and it seems to be less affected by ambient temps. My hands sweat more with the leather wheel despite wearing driving gloves. I had IND custom modify the M Performance shift knob and alcantara boot too. They removed the carbon fiber piece and wrapped it in alcantara; I'm not a fan of superfluous amounts of carbon. I can't wait to receive it.

Maybe hand size and steering wheels size make some people feel or not feel inputs through the steering wheel, I will say I did hear more positive than negative about the E9X m3. But I never felt it better than my F80 steering, but than again I have the 265 tires in the front on coilovers and a good alignment so that probably gives me more of a feel for the steering inputs.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

Maybe hand size and steering wheels size make some people feel or not feel inputs through the steering wheel, I will say I did hear more positive than negative about the E9X m3. But I never felt it better than my F80 steering, but than again I have the 265 tires in the front on coilovers and a good alignment so that probably gives me more of a feel for the steering inputs.

Astute analysis there young Sir!

[Ilikemike]

Originally Posted by Ramos

If you prefer a turbo engine with low end torque and a flat torque curve, and I prefer an NA engine with no low end punch but screaming high end power, does that mean that HP and torque are now subjective measurements?

No, just your preference for either one...