Why such disagreement over the M4 GTS?

Lienrocs · 10-16-2020, 10:45 AM

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Originally Posted by h_bakken

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Originally Posted by Lienrocs

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Originally Posted by h_bakken

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Originally Posted by 4play

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Originally Posted by 786

Do you have a GTS with 30k miles? If so, wow that's the highest I've ever heard of. I'm sure you got a great deal on it. I wouldn't pay double for a 991.1 GT3 either.

It was 33k miles when I purchased, but it's closer to 36k miles now. As far as I can tell, the highest mileage GTS in the world.

I'll probably put 12-15k a year on it too, so I don't see anyone catching me any time soon.

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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Check this out. am to pro gap is 2x greater in the GT R despite the fact that the RS was equipped with shot tires.

The RS is probably on Cup 2s, so the tires having less tread is actually a benefit, assuming they weren't heat cycled out. That "90% worn" comment made no sense to me - they weren't driving in heavy rain or standing water. If anything, less tread block movement means the tire will take longer to overheat.

But, it is a good demonstration of how an amateur will struggle with a spikier car.

Great to hear that at least one GTS is being driven a lot!

I'll be working to catch up with you but I've got a long ways to go. And I only drive it on the weekends since there's no enjoyment in sitting on the interstate on the way to work in that car, however, I do have a track day scheduled in early December, Definitely looking forward to that. My first ever.

I put almost 11k miles on my second (current) GTS in a year and almost 8k in my first one in the two and a bit years I had it. They're fantastic cars. Fast as, I feel cool driving it and you can still get a normal amount of things in it which makes it as practical as any other sedan not counting the lack of rear seats.

As far as pricing and perception is concerned I think there are two bug factors that hampered it in the states. BMW built and brought in another 100 cars over the 300 they said were coming so many that weren't pre sold ended up sitting on lots and nobody wanted to buy them because two journalists whose words everyone takes as gospel disliked the cars in a single track test each, respectively. It's a real shame because the car is something else to an M4. The engine mapping makes the S55 feel radically different to an aftermarket tuned S55 (I had a DINAN stage 3 Jahre at the same time as my frozen GTS which was faster in a straight line but was uninspiring) and I've driven other tuned cars and they feel worlds apart.

On top of that the tech BMW used on the GTS is so dang cool and forward thinking. I get that the water injection is a bit finicky but it does exactly what it's supposed to do. I've had two track days in the last 3 weeks in palm desert and inlet temperatures both days (107 degrees and 91 degrees) were below ambient. If a different manufacturer pulled that trick off people would be losing their minds.

As far as speed goes, throw some non star spec cup 2's on an otherwise stock car and I'd wager it'd put down near identical lap times as the .1 GT3.

The only fault I can give BMW would be lack of front camber adjustment which is so easily to fix that it's a minor annoyance rather than an unforgivable mistake and it's only relevant if you're going to the track anyways.

Agree it's a very special car, i'm so glad I picked mine up.

There is another car on the road with water injection — Porsche GT2RS!

Interesting one of the Moto journalists Chris Harris who hated the M4 GTS partially due to its high price I think just ranked the M2CS in his top three, which also includes 992 Porsche Turbo S.

Top Gear commented that the CS is overpriced when compared with the M2 competition.

So interesting.

Also probably a dumb question but what is wrong with the Star Cup 2 (compared with non star)

I just had new star version put on all four when I got my water injection system replaced.

Now keep in mind I've never been to the track, my first track day is likely going to be second week in December but the car is primarily a weekend road driver. At least for now.

From what I've heard and read the star spec is a less sticky compound to other cup 2 compounds. It's more similar to a PS4S than a traditional Cup 2 like you'd get from the factory on a GT3.

FormulaMMM · 10-16-2020, 12:29 PM

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Originally Posted by 4play

The RS is probably on Cup 2s, so the tires having less tread is actually a benefit, assuming they weren't heat cycled out. That "90% worn" comment made no sense to me - they weren't driving in heavy rain or standing water. If anything, less tread block movement means the tire will take longer to overheat.

But, it is a good demonstration of how an amateur will struggle with a spikier car.

Cups don't really have that good to the last drop compound quality like some of the more dedicated track options (where manufacturers are vying for rep and aftermarket buys). Michelin puts the best stuff in the initial tread depth. R version most extreme example. But N spec (OE Porsche) lose a step after just a couple of track days as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

As far as speed goes, throw some non star spec cup 2's on an otherwise stock car and I'd wager it'd put down near identical lap times as the .1 GT3.

The only fault I can give BMW would be lack of front camber adjustment which is so easily to fix that it's a minor annoyance rather than an unforgivable mistake and it's only relevant if you're going to the track anyways.

Yeah, with 300-400 lbs. difference between the GTS and a 991 GT3, hard to make a definitive judgment between star and N specs. But it's clear the star spec is one of the most relaxed Cup 2 specs, both from durability and max traction standpoints. No comparison to the aggressive OE Cup 2 spec on Vettes, for example. Different tires.

GTS is much better suited to a dry condition oriented, super aggressive semi-slick. Just too fast, capable, and too heavy for anything else.

+1 on camber, and with the G8X it seems they STILL won't budge! pretty unreal.

h_bakken · 10-16-2020, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4play

The RS is probably on Cup 2s, so the tires having less tread is actually a benefit, assuming they weren't heat cycled out. That "90% worn" comment made no sense to me - they weren't driving in heavy rain or standing water. If anything, less tread block movement means the tire will take longer to overheat.

But, it is a good demonstration of how an amateur will struggle with a spikier car.

Cups don't really have that good to the last drop compound quality like some of the more dedicated track options (where manufacturers are vying for rep and aftermarket buys). Michelin puts the best stuff in the initial tread depth. R version most extreme example. But N spec (OE Porsche) lose a step after just a couple of track days as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

As far as speed goes, throw some non star spec cup 2's on an otherwise stock car and I'd wager it'd put down near identical lap times as the .1 GT3.

The only fault I can give BMW would be lack of front camber adjustment which is so easily to fix that it's a minor annoyance rather than an unforgivable mistake and it's only relevant if you're going to the track anyways.

Yeah, with 300-400 lbs. difference between the GTS and a 991 GT3, hard to make a definitive judgment between star and N specs. But it's clear the star spec is one of the most relaxed Cup 2 specs, both from durability and max traction standpoints. No comparison to the aggressive OE Cup 2 spec on Vettes, for example. Different tires.

GTS is much better suited to a dry condition oriented, super aggressive semi-slick. Just too fast, capable, and too heavy for anything else.

+1 on camber, and with the G8X it seems they STILL won't budge! pretty unreal.

Thanks all.

I'll be sure to get non-star spec next time around.

Also I'm gonna hold off on camera for now, not sure how many track days I will be doing. There is a little bit of negative camber both front and rear from the factory hopefully that will be enough, as I have no experience and will not be pushing that hard.

Worst case I roast the tires on the shoulder and have to get new non-star spec

SYT_Shadow · 10-16-2020, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Cups don't really have that good to the last drop compound quality like some of the more dedicated track options (where manufacturers are vying for rep and aftermarket buys). Michelin puts the best stuff in the initial tread depth. R version most extreme example. But N spec (OE Porsche) lose a step after just a couple of track days as well.

Yup. They have a few hero laps, then taper down and are relatively stable for a while.

And yeah, the Cup 2R is incredibly fast for a couple laps. A friend ran a new set at WGI and the first morning was able to do a 2:03.0, then in the afternoon 2:05, then on the second day couldn't drop from 2:07 and stopped running.

786 · 10-16-2020, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

I put almost 11k miles on my second (current) GTS in a year and almost 8k in my first one in the two and a bit years I had it. They're fantastic cars. Fast as, I feel cool driving it and you can still get a normal amount of things in it which makes it as practical as any other sedan not counting the lack of rear seats.

As far as pricing and perception is concerned I think there are two bug factors that hampered it in the states. BMW built and brought in another 100 cars over the 300 they said were coming so many that weren't pre sold ended up sitting on lots and nobody wanted to buy them because two journalists whose words everyone takes as gospel disliked the cars in a single track test each, respectively. It's a real shame because the car is something else to an M4. The engine mapping makes the S55 feel radically different to an aftermarket tuned S55 (I had a DINAN stage 3 Jahre at the same time as my frozen GTS which was faster in a straight line but was uninspiring) and I've driven other tuned cars and they feel worlds apart.

Damn, you guys are dailying these things! I can see it working if you've got a fun commute and nice roads. I do think it's much more practical than typical cars of this nature. I can actually fit a set of golf clubs in the trunk which was a requirement for me. I actually initially wanted to order a new Touring because it would fit a couple sets of golf clubs easily and my road bike inside the car which I really prefer so I can grab a bite after long rides. But alas, they aren't sending it here so I started looking around for something else. I think the GTS is pretty practical for a sports car, which is another draw. In my previous Porsches you could never really fit anything large. The frunk was small and back seats we just used for groceries.

BMWs mistakes have really created the perfect storm for used values, sucks for the first owners unfortunately. Glad to hear the car is quite different from a regular M4. I have read this several times as well, "it's a world apart from the regular M4" or something to that effect. Their loss is our gain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Interesting one of the Moto journalists Chris Harris who hated the M4 GTS partially due to its high price I think just ranked the M2CS in his top three, which also includes 992 Porsche Turbo S.

It seemed to me the price really turned him off, he owns and dailies an M2 Comp and from his insta seems to love it. I can see why he would like the M2CS, I don't know what they cost in the UK but here in the $80s it is expensive but in the grand scheme of things not overly expensive for a sports car. The new price of the GTS at $130+ is a lot tougher to swallow.

Would be interesting if he or anyone else did a comparison of the GTS vs M2CS today, used vs new, as they're right at the same price. I'm sure the M2CS would get points for being a manual but it doesn't seem as special to me as the GTS. Plus im not sure how limited it will be? Would be interesting nonetheless.

the_scotsman · 10-16-2020, 02:37 PM

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Originally Posted by 786

Damn, you guys are dailying these things! I can see it working if you've got a fun commute and nice roads. .

Not sure where in Dallas you live/work, but on nice days, in a non COVID environment, you might catch a view of mine on 75. Still head to work every now and then and the GTS is the commute of choice. Just shy of 5K miles now.

I was one of the lucky ones that picked up a brand new GTS with full warranty for $96K last year. I already have a dedicate track toy (E30 M3 JP racer) which has been sitting idle for many years. The GTS will hit the track sooner than later

. Considering doing MSR in November.

FormulaMMM · 10-16-2020, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

And yeah, the Cup 2R is incredibly fast for a couple laps. A friend ran a new set at WGI and the first morning was able to do a 2:03.0, then in the afternoon 2:05, then on the second day couldn't drop from 2:07 and stopped running.

And yet, I'm still tempted... Damn you Michelin.

4play · 10-16-2020, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 786

Damn, you guys are dailying these things! I can see it working if you've got a fun commute and nice roads. I do think it's much more practical than typical cars of this nature. I can actually fit a set of golf clubs in the trunk which was a requirement for me.

Almost all my miles actually come from mountain drives and driving to/from the golf course.

My current commute is 0 miles due to working from home, but when (if) we go back, it's only 4 miles each way. Roads and traffic are both terrible but it's only 10-15 mins.

At most, I drive 2-3 miles a day to run errands, and the car is fine for that. Granted it's not a GT luxury cruiser, but it's perfectly fine for daily use.

I think it's odd that most of these cars have such low mileage. Yes, they have a lot of specialized, track-oriented parts, but they are still just a 4 series.

786 · 10-16-2020, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_scotsman

Not sure where in Dallas you live/work, but on nice days, in a non COVID environment, you might catch a view of mine on 75. Still head to work every now and then and the GTS is the commute of choice. Just shy of 5K miles now.

I was one of the lucky ones that picked up a brand new GTS with full warranty for $96K last year. I already have a dedicate track toy (E30 M3 JP racer) which has been sitting idle for many years. The GTS will hit the track sooner than later

. Considering doing MSR in November.

Nice, I live in the Addison area and work in Lincoln Center right across from the Galleria. I used to actually have the most fun on the old DNT either heading south towards downtown from Plano or heading north from downtown towards Plano. It has great high speed curves, and not a lot of cops. But you know our road situation here for the most part, not fun in any sports car. I also have a couple businesses, one in Las Colinas and one off Harry Hines, so everywhere I go the roads are pretty bad.

$96k for a brand new GTS with warranty is a deal man, good job! Hopefully we run into each other some time in the future. I have been to Cars & Coverica a couple times recently because my friends forced me, so if you ever go out there lmk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4play

Almost all my miles actually come from mountain drives and driving to/from the golf course.

My current commute is 0 miles due to working from home, but when (if) we go back, it's only 4 miles each way. Roads and traffic are both terrible but it's only 10-15 mins.

At most, I drive 2-3 miles a day to run errands, and the car is fine for that. Granted it's not a GT luxury cruiser, but it's perfectly fine for daily use.

I think it's odd that most of these cars have such low mileage. Yes, they have a lot of specialized, track-oriented parts, but they are still just a 4 series.

I have a friend in Atlanta with a 991.1 GT3 and I have been there, you guys have some awesome back roads. Such a pretty place too, at least the parts I visited. Elevation changes breed nice roads, Dallas is flat as a pancake but Atlanta has a ton of elevation and thus a bunch of nice roads. Really like the area north of the city.

Mountain drives to/from a golf course sounds ideal, I'm envious haha. Fitting clubs took out a lot of contenders for me. I'm not putting my clubs in the passenger seat like some of my Porsche buddies just to flex at the golf course.

I alternate working from home and the office every week right now due to Covid, and my commute is similarly short (15 mins max) but the roads are bad and traffic sucks so I think the miles would be wasted in a GTS. I want to pull that car out just for fun drives to really maximize the experience with the car. But if I lived in Atlanta I would be doing exactly what you are lol

786 · 11-11-2020, 10:38 PM

found an old issue of Evo with a great story on the GTS written by Jethro Bovingdon. ill see if i can find their 2016 eCoty issue where a few judges placed it 1st ahead of the 911R and post that as well.

sorry for the crappy images, the lighting in my study isn't great.

jpdchicago · 11-12-2020, 11:43 AM

Great article.
Thank you for sharing. There have been a lot of great reviews in Europe (and in the US) even though everyone here focused on Bad reviews from Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson (in the rain and on road settings on a track!!!). Those videos were pathetic...
You can even hear Jeremy Clarkson make fun of the water injection system. Porsche GT2 RS Jeremy?
There are also excellent reviews from former French and German race track and rally drivers.
For that reason, and the fact that BMW did not sell enough there, try to find one under $150,000 in France or Germany.
But nothing can convey the actual driver's experience in that car. It is a keeper. Enjoy it!

Darth One · 11-12-2020, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 786

found an old issue of Evo with a great story on the GTS written by Jethro Bovingdon. ill see if i can find their 2016 eCoty issue where a few judges placed it 1st ahead of the 911R and post that as well.

sorry for the crappy images, the lighting in my study isn't great.

"Better than the 911R" is extremely high praise. I could be confusing evo with another mag, but I thought I remember reading that they thought the 911R was the greatest 911 of all time...

786 · 11-12-2020, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Great article.
Thank you for sharing. There have been a lot of great reviews in Europe (and in the US) even though everyone here focused on Bad reviews from Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson (in the rain and on road settings on a track!!!). Those videos were pathetic...
You can even hear Jeremy Clarkson make fun of the water injection system. Porsche GT2 RS Jeremy?
There are also excellent reviews from former French and German race track and rally drivers.
For that reason, and the fact that BMW did not sell enough there, try to find one under $150,000 in France or Germany.
But nothing can convey the actual driver's experience in that car. It is a keeper. Enjoy it!

Agreed, the bad reviews were not really credible imo. Clarkson was taking the piss as usual, don't care what he thinks. Harris surprised me a bit as he's usually better than that. He is a true car nut though so I think the price turned him off and that tainted the rest of the review. Probably the least credible review I've ever seen from him.

Driver experience is key though, you're right. And everyone I've talked to who owns one loves theirs. I definitely love mine, it's a keeper for sure! Hope you enjoy yours as well bud!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth One

"Better than the 911R" is extremely high praise. I could be confusing evo with another mag, but I thought I remember reading that they thought the 911R was the greatest 911 of all time...

You're right, very high praise indeed. In Evo's 'greatest drivers cars of all time' issue they selected the 996.1 GT3 as their favorite. Maybe in a subsequent issue they selected the 911R or RS 4.0 as the greatest 911 of all time, i can't recall.

Here is quote below from Henry Catchpole:

"I love it. In fact I love it so much that before I left for DRIVETRIBE I voted it top of my list in evo’s Car of the Year test. The polish of the damping, the feel of the steering, the sound of the engine and the balance of the handling all make it sensationally thrilling in my eyes. It’s the sort of car that, at the end of a drive, makes you turn off the engine slightly reverentially and just sit in the bucket seats for a couple of minutes soaking in all that’s just happened, committing to memory every slide, every moment of lightness over a crest, every sustained hit of angry acceleration.

Anyhow, I’m not a lone voice writing in the wilderness about how much I adore the M4 GTS. Others like it too. Jethro Bovingdon is one and I trust his judgement. Mauro Calo (a professional driver, who helps out on various TV programmes you might have heard of) has tweeted in perplexity at people disliking the GTS. evo’s erstwhile Editor, Nick Trott, also voted it top of his eCoty list. Yet it was so distasteful to others on the eCoty panel that it ended up only joint 6th out of 12."

Results for that year

786 · 11-18-2020, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth One

"Better than the 911R" is extremely high praise. I could be confusing evo with another mag, but I thought I remember reading that they thought the 911R was the greatest 911 of all time...

Found the issue. Reading through it again it seems like the first day of their week long test was really wet and the GTS scared some folks so much it tainted their perception of the car for the remainder of the test. The editor of Evo at the time, Nick Trott, and one of it's main writers, Henry Catchpole, loved the GTS so much they ranked it 1st overall. The whole point of this annual test is to see which car gives the biggest thrill and in their eyes the GTS was the winner.

Some interesting comments, please see below:

rcompound · 11-24-2020, 01:40 PM

I have owned my GTS since new and purchased it because Porsche did not have any GT3s for sale and dealers were marking up the new ones as used for +$20k. I wanted a more dedicated track car that included a cage. If track days are your thing I still recommend a GT3; easy to drive fast, very reliable, no modifications needed but it is a high entry price.

The GTS has a lower starting price, especially now on the used market but is not track ready in my opinion.

1. CCB are expensive to operate on a track car - CRAZY EXPENSIVE and must be converted to conventional braking. I went with AP - excellent choice.
2. The staggered wheel set up is expensive and leaves little tire choice for the track. 19 x 10 wheels with Toyo RR is a cost effective and dependable track set up - The catch? The MDM is fooled by the wrong diameter tire and is hyper sensitive engaging the MDM when it is not needed. You need to reprogram the MDM to the Euro MDM. I run without MDM in the dry, it is nice to have in the rain. Problem solved.
3. The seats are useless and cannot be used with 6 point belts. The fix are BMW Euro Recaro GTS seats that are stupid expensive or a cheap alternative. The attachments for the 6 point belts need to be welded in place - not cheap or easy as you need to remove the interior if you want it to look OE.
4. Front camber is not adjustable and the rest of the suspension lacks range of adjustment necessary. Solution? Millway camber plates and suspension pieces, lower the suspension, get a track alignment.
5. The front splitter is made of foam and will cost $2000 to replace (painted). I used a piece of Alumalite from 80/20.net and had it painted Acid Orange. Total cost less than $250.
6. Finally the infamous water injection. Mine failed under warrantly and the injection block was updated under a published TSB. After that it was perfect and I have thousands of failure free miles since then.

Most of the sour grapes came from speculators that hoped to cash in on the 911 GT3 bubble of ~2015. They got burned.

By now you are up to the cost of GT3 if you want to run German iron. A used Mustang Shelby GT350 R is with decent miles is $55k, a much lower starting point but they have some over heating issues.

The point is that there are few perfect solutions but the M4 GTS is a fine track machine.

786 · 11-24-2020, 10:43 PM

Great info, thanks. How many miles on your car now? Looks awesome btw ��

rcompound · 11-25-2020, 07:45 AM

8500 miles. The car is a rock star getting significant attention where ever it goes. Me, not so much. :|

delfunk · 12-12-2020, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 786

Interesting article, apologies if it’s been posted before

WHY SUCH DISAGREEMENT OVER THE BMW M4 GTS?
I adore the Hardcore GTS but it seems not everyone is a fan...

https://drivetribe.com/p/why-such-di...Q4CvqnKEsvWfwA

There seems to be some disagreement in the world of motoring journalism. ‘Shock, horror’ I hear you cry. Of course the design and dynamics of cars can be polarising. Yet broadly speaking road testers tend to agree. You’ll always get the odd curmudgeon or wilful renegade, but they’re usually outliers in the grand scheme of things, even if they’re gobby ones. However, one car is currently threatening to create the sort of schism not seen since Urban VI and Clement VII clashed over who had the real popemobile. The divisive car in question? The BMW M4 GTS.

You might, quite reasonably, think ‘what’s not to like?’. It’s a BMW (often good) with the (light)weight of the M Division thrown behind it (even better) and it’s largely unsullied by considerations of practicality (excellent). Generally the press gushes like a holed sump over such things.

I love it. In fact I love it so much that before I left for DRIVETRIBE I voted it top of my list in evo’s Car of the Year test. The polish of the damping, the feel of the steering, the sound of the engine and the balance of the handling all make it sensationally thrilling in my eyes. It’s the sort of car that, at the end of a drive, makes you turn off the engine slightly reverentially and just sit in the bucket seats for a couple of minutes soaking in all that’s just happened, committing to memory every slide, every moment of lightness over a crest, every sustained hit of angry acceleration.

That wasn’t the first time I’d driven one either – this adoration was no brief romance, no one-test stand. Having spent several long days in one driving around Europe, I can say that I would happily live with a GTS and put up with any shortcomings in comfort. Not that there really are any; with sat-nav, a radio and air con, it’s hardly an R26.R. It’s a bit noisy, but not unpleasantly so. in the same vein as the current generation of GT3 RS, this is now a hardcore car that can feasibly be used every day without it feeling like a chore.

Anyhow, I’m not a lone voice writing in the wilderness about how much I adore the M4 GTS. Others like it too. Jethro Bovingdon is one and I trust his judgement. Mauro Calo (a professional driver, who helps out on various TV programmes you might have heard of) has tweeted in perplexity at people disliking the GTS. evo’s erstwhile Editor, Nick Trott, also voted it top of his eCoty list. Yet it was so distasteful to others on the eCoty panel that it ended up only joint 6th out of 12. Autocar voted it LAST in its Britain’s Best Driver’s Car test. It was beaten by… well, a lot of good cars actually, but it still seems crazy that it came last.

So, why the disparity? What’s not to like? Well, it can be a little tricky in the wet. Alright, more than tricky. In fact if you’re not in the mood then it can feel a little like there’s a price on your head and it’s keen to claim the reward. When there’s moisture around, the lightly treaded Michelin Cup 2 tyres seem to become as slippery as a 500,000mile leather steering wheel. As a result you need to discover new levels of right foot sensitivity if you want to avoid spinning them up or melting the traction control. If you turn off the ESP then you will need the hands of a gunslinger to wind lock on in time.

Now, I rather admire this uncompromising nature. I happen to like a challenge. Plenty of the most exciting pastimes demand skill, respect and a willingness to dance with danger and I think the limited edition, clearly extreme, M4 GTS falls into that particular category. But others are apparently less keen. Particularly in a wet Scotland on the first couple of days of eCoty…

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

So, there we go. Mystery solved? Probably not. But it’s a theory. I’m sure some just objected to the lack of a manual ‘box and others think that on principle the engine must be a travesty for not being NA (for what it’s worth, I think a dual clutch paddle shift suits the hard-charging character of the car and the bombastic, water-injected engine is pretty blooming special in spite of the turbo-charging). Whatever the reason, I shall continue to lust after one and place it snugly in my fantasy garage. Between the imaginary 3.8 GT3 RS and the Caterham R300, since you ask.

It's a piece of garbage. I have never been so dissapointed in my whole life as a life long BMW owner. Not anymore! Bye!

Lienrocs · 12-12-2020, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfunk

Quote:

Originally Posted by 786

Interesting article, apologies if it's been posted before

WHY SUCH DISAGREEMENT OVER THE BMW M4 GTS?
I adore the Hardcore GTS but it seems not everyone is a fan...

https://drivetribe.com/p/why-such-di...Q4CvqnKEsvWfwA

There seems to be some disagreement in the world of motoring journalism. 'Shock, horror' I hear you cry. Of course the design and dynamics of cars can be polarising. Yet broadly speaking road testers tend to agree. You'll always get the odd curmudgeon or wilful renegade, but they're usually outliers in the grand scheme of things, even if they're gobby ones. However, one car is currently threatening to create the sort of schism not seen since Urban VI and Clement VII clashed over who had the real popemobile. The divisive car in question? The BMW M4 GTS.

You might, quite reasonably, think 'what's not to like?'. It's a BMW (often good) with the (light)weight of the M Division thrown behind it (even better) and it's largely unsullied by considerations of practicality (excellent). Generally the press gushes like a holed sump over such things.

I love it. In fact I love it so much that before I left for DRIVETRIBE I voted it top of my list in evo's Car of the Year test. The polish of the damping, the feel of the steering, the sound of the engine and the balance of the handling all make it sensationally thrilling in my eyes. It's the sort of car that, at the end of a drive, makes you turn off the engine slightly reverentially and just sit in the bucket seats for a couple of minutes soaking in all that's just happened, committing to memory every slide, every moment of lightness over a crest, every sustained hit of angry acceleration.

That wasn't the first time I'd driven one either – this adoration was no brief romance, no one-test stand. Having spent several long days in one driving around Europe, I can say that I would happily live with a GTS and put up with any shortcomings in comfort. Not that there really are any; with sat-nav, a radio and air con, it's hardly an R26.R. It's a bit noisy, but not unpleasantly so. in the same vein as the current generation of GT3 RS, this is now a hardcore car that can feasibly be used every day without it feeling like a chore.

Anyhow, I'm not a lone voice writing in the wilderness about how much I adore the M4 GTS. Others like it too. Jethro Bovingdon is one and I trust his judgement. Mauro Calo (a professional driver, who helps out on various TV programmes you might have heard of) has tweeted in perplexity at people disliking the GTS. evo's erstwhile Editor, Nick Trott, also voted it top of his eCoty list. Yet it was so distasteful to others on the eCoty panel that it ended up only joint 6th out of 12. Autocar voted it LAST in its Britain's Best Driver's Car test. It was beaten by… well, a lot of good cars actually, but it still seems crazy that it came last.

So, why the disparity? What's not to like? Well, it can be a little tricky in the wet. Alright, more than tricky. In fact if you're not in the mood then it can feel a little like there's a price on your head and it's keen to claim the reward. When there's moisture around, the lightly treaded Michelin Cup 2 tyres seem to become as slippery as a 500,000mile leather steering wheel. As a result you need to discover new levels of right foot sensitivity if you want to avoid spinning them up or melting the traction control. If you turn off the ESP then you will need the hands of a gunslinger to wind lock on in time.

Now, I rather admire this uncompromising nature. I happen to like a challenge. Plenty of the most exciting pastimes demand skill, respect and a willingness to dance with danger and I think the limited edition, clearly extreme, M4 GTS falls into that particular category. But others are apparently less keen. Particularly in a wet Scotland on the first couple of days of eCoty…

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

So, there we go. Mystery solved? Probably not. But it's a theory. I'm sure some just objected to the lack of a manual 'box and others think that on principle the engine must be a travesty for not being NA (for what it's worth, I think a dual clutch paddle shift suits the hard-charging character of the car and the bombastic, water-injected engine is pretty blooming special in spite of the turbo-charging). Whatever the reason, I shall continue to lust after one and place it snugly in my fantasy garage. Between the imaginary 3.8 GT3 RS and the Caterham R300, since you ask.

It's a piece of garbage. I have never been so dissapointed in my whole life as a life long BMW owner. Not anymore! Bye!

Ok.

jpdchicago · 12-13-2020, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfunk

It's a piece of garbage. I have never been so dissapointed in my whole life as a life long BMW owner. Not anymore! Bye!

Well, someone is upset...😂

Best, most raw, fun to drive, car I ever owned (among some of those cars, 2 ferraris and 4 bmw M3s). No issues whatsoever in 4 years.
Keeping the Gts for sure!

I guess everyone’s experience is different...

rcompound · 12-13-2020, 07:18 PM

I guess you missed the eta engine, the first gen BMW V8, and the 2001 750i? Count your lucky stars.

Gomeler · 12-13-2020, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfunk

It's a piece of garbage. I have never been so dissapointed in my whole life as a life long BMW owner. Not anymore! Bye!

lol. I thought you were done with BMW 6 months ago

11-11-2020, 10:38 PM	#54
786 First Lieutenant 348 Rep 316 Posts Drives: 991.2 GT3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dallas, TX iTrader: (1)	found an old issue of Evo with a great story on the GTS written by Jethro Bovingdon. ill see if i can find their 2016 eCoty issue where a few judges placed it 1st ahead of the 911R and post that as well. sorry for the crappy images, the lighting in my study isn't great. Attached Images __________________ IG: @iivvx Current: ‘18 GT3 Sold: ‘18 M2, '11 M3, '16 GT4, '11 GT500 (850hp), '16 M4 GTS, '85 3.2 Carrera, '07 911 Turbo, '09 & '07 Z06, '08 IS-F, '03 & '02 WRX, like 5 Miatas, '00 Si
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11-12-2020, 11:43 AM	#55
jpdchicago Major 1359 Rep 1,394 Posts Drives: M4 CSL, X3MC Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Chicago area iTrader: (0)	Great article. Thank you for sharing. There have been a lot of great reviews in Europe (and in the US) even though everyone here focused on Bad reviews from Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson (in the rain and on road settings on a track!!!). Those videos were pathetic... You can even hear Jeremy Clarkson make fun of the water injection system. Porsche GT2 RS Jeremy? There are also excellent reviews from former French and German race track and rally drivers. For that reason, and the fact that BMW did not sell enough there, try to find one under $150,000 in France or Germany. But nothing can convey the actual driver's experience in that car. It is a keeper. Enjoy it!
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11-24-2020, 01:40 PM	#59
rcompound Trackwarn 97 Rep 53 Posts Drives: 2016 M4 GTS Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Chicagoland iTrader: (0)	M4 GTS was a compromise halo car I have owned my GTS since new and purchased it because Porsche did not have any GT3s for sale and dealers were marking up the new ones as used for +$20k. I wanted a more dedicated track car that included a cage. If track days are your thing I still recommend a GT3; easy to drive fast, very reliable, no modifications needed but it is a high entry price. The GTS has a lower starting price, especially now on the used market but is not track ready in my opinion. 1. CCB are expensive to operate on a track car - CRAZY EXPENSIVE and must be converted to conventional braking. I went with AP - excellent choice. 2. The staggered wheel set up is expensive and leaves little tire choice for the track. 19 x 10 wheels with Toyo RR is a cost effective and dependable track set up - The catch? The MDM is fooled by the wrong diameter tire and is hyper sensitive engaging the MDM when it is not needed. You need to reprogram the MDM to the Euro MDM. I run without MDM in the dry, it is nice to have in the rain. Problem solved. 3. The seats are useless and cannot be used with 6 point belts. The fix are BMW Euro Recaro GTS seats that are stupid expensive or a cheap alternative. The attachments for the 6 point belts need to be welded in place - not cheap or easy as you need to remove the interior if you want it to look OE. 4. Front camber is not adjustable and the rest of the suspension lacks range of adjustment necessary. Solution? Millway camber plates and suspension pieces, lower the suspension, get a track alignment. 5. The front splitter is made of foam and will cost $2000 to replace (painted). I used a piece of Alumalite from 80/20.net and had it painted Acid Orange. Total cost less than $250. 6. Finally the infamous water injection. Mine failed under warrantly and the injection block was updated under a published TSB. After that it was perfect and I have thousands of failure free miles since then. Most of the sour grapes came from speculators that hoped to cash in on the 911 GT3 bubble of ~2015. They got burned. By now you are up to the cost of GT3 if you want to run German iron. A used Mustang Shelby GT350 R is with decent miles is $55k, a much lower starting point but they have some over heating issues. The point is that there are few perfect solutions but the M4 GTS is a fine track machine. Attached Images
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11-24-2020, 10:43 PM	#60
786 First Lieutenant 348 Rep 316 Posts Drives: 991.2 GT3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dallas, TX iTrader: (1)	Great info, thanks. How many miles on your car now? Looks awesome btw �� __________________ IG: @iivvx Current: ‘18 GT3 Sold: ‘18 M2, '11 M3, '16 GT4, '11 GT500 (850hp), '16 M4 GTS, '85 3.2 Carrera, '07 911 Turbo, '09 & '07 Z06, '08 IS-F, '03 & '02 WRX, like 5 Miatas, '00 Si
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11-25-2020, 07:45 AM	#61
rcompound Trackwarn 97 Rep 53 Posts Drives: 2016 M4 GTS Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Chicagoland iTrader: (0)	8500 miles. The car is a rock star getting significant attention where ever it goes. Me, not so much. :\|
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12-13-2020, 07:18 PM	#65
rcompound Trackwarn 97 Rep 53 Posts Drives: 2016 M4 GTS Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Chicagoland iTrader: (0)	I guess you missed the eta engine, the first gen BMW V8, and the 2001 750i? Count your lucky stars.
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