Coilovers vs BMW MP HAS

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Modena NYC

Can someone explain how bmw or Dinan even get away with a adj spring kit or has or whatever you call
It? Springs and shocks ALWAYS have to be matched. If you just add springs (like a lot of people do) it will ride like crap and blow out the shocks in minimal time...been there done that. Are the EDC shocks able to accommodate leas travel with supported rebound given that there is less spring?

I’m a little old school but general nothing beats quality matched coil overs. That said this is my street car and the comp pack ride is sublime with the edc. The gap is horrendous. I won’t sacrifice ride quality for looks but I’m confused how bmw is now offering a solution like this.

Please explain to me. Adding springs or just lowering a car on factory shocks does NOT work and is not a long term solution.

And coilovers are NEVER matched, in reality.

Think about it - the beauty of coilovers is that you can run a wide range of spring rates without revalving the dampers. Therefore, by definition, the system is never matched.

All that said, I agree with you otherwise that almost as a rule, slapping a set of lowering springs on an otherwise stock car usually ends badly and handling is almost always much, much worse than stock even though the average bonehead will swear the handling is better "because less roll".

Now, if you can keep the rates close to stock AND not go overboard with the ride height drop AND run appropriate bumpstops then things should work well. The MP-HAS ticks all of these boxes. I haven't personally experience it, though, so I can only assume. I would not be surprised if the car handled worse on a bumpy road when pushed very hard - here the stock system's capacity really shines. May be wrong, of course, but experience has taught me that it is far easier to mess things up than it is to tangibly improve them.

[Modena NYC]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

And coilovers are NEVER matched, in reality.

Think about it - the beauty of coilovers is that you can run a wide range of spring rates without revalving the dampers. Therefore, by definition, the system is never matched.

All that said, I agree with you otherwise that almost as a rule, slapping a set of lowering springs on an otherwise stock car usually ends badly and handling is almost always much, much worse than stock even though the average bonehead will swear the handling is better "because less roll".

Now, if you can keep the rates close to stock AND not go overboard with the ride height drop AND run appropriate bumpstops then things should work well. The MP-HAS ticks all of these boxes. I haven't personally experience it, though, so I can only assume. I would not be surprised if the car handled worse on a bumpy road when pushed very hard - here the stock system's capacity really shines. May be wrong, of course, but experience has taught me that it is far easier to mess things up than it is to tangibly improve them.

Thank you. Exactly how I feel.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

May be wrong, of course, but experience has taught me that it is far easier to mess things up than it is to tangibly improve them.

I very much agree with this statement. I've also learned from experience that suspension tuning is a very fine art that's quite challenging to master.

This is why I trust what the ///M engineers have done and went with the MP-HAS. They have all the chassis data and development environment to make the best product. I have to say I am very happy with how it performs.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I very much agree with this statement. I've also learned from experience that suspension tuning is a very fine art.

This is why I trust what the ///M engineers have done and went with the MP-HAS. They have all the chassis data and development environment to make the best product. I have to say I am very happy with how it performs.

Yep, I trust BMW for sure to get it right as they build world class handling M-cars. And, I trust your input as well.

I am getting close to trying the MPHAS + CS coding on my ZCP car. Stock the handling is off the hook so the brutal truth is that I'd only be doing the HAS for visual reasons and I'd be doing the CS coding for a bit better damping to suit the HAS. I would like a little more chassis control in Comfort and/or a little less chop in Sport. May or may not be achievable.

In other words, I have no desire/need for better handling but would like to improve aesthetics and the finer damper characteristics without disrupting the immense handling capability of the stock ZCP system. I push this car hard on bumpy mountain roads and it's brilliant. Ultra planted, ultra balanced, plenty of travel/capacity, immense grip.

[Modena NYC]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Yep, I trust BMW for sure to get it right as they build world class handling M-cars. And, I trust your input as well.

I am getting close to trying the MPHAS + CS coding on my ZCP car. Stock the handling is off the hook so the brutal truth is that I'd only be doing the HAS for visual reasons and I'd be doing the CS coding for a bit better damping to suit the HAS. I would like a little more chassis control in Comfort and/or a little less chop in Sport. May or may not be achievable.

In other words, I have no desire/need for better handling but would like to improve aesthetics and the finer damper characteristics without disrupting the immense handling capability of the stock ZCP system. I push this car hard on bumpy mountain roads and it's brilliant. Ultra planted, ultra balanced, plenty of travel/capacity, immense grip.

Also, agree. Which is why I posted in the first place.

I am skeptical and nervous to mess things up. The comp pack ride is sublime for a sporty car I just want a little less gap.

So cs valving is available or is that part of the bmw
Mp suspension? Apologies for potentially newb questions I’ve had many many m3s but this is my first in a while.

[Brickologic]

One of the immutable laws of physics is that it takes force to accelerate mass. Whether you’re running it off an apex, or screeching to a halt, mass determines how much force you’ll need to get the job done. Reducing a car’s weight pays dividends in handling, acceleration and braking—as well as enhancing tire and brake life. And after you obeyed Colin Chapmans law, you can start with the coilovers. If you don't have full adjustable shocks forget it on the racetrack. Take some Bilstein Clubsport, Ohlins, KW Clubsport 3-way, Nitron or real racing hardware... if you don't want or can spend 4000 $ or more for shocks. Don't do it. Take the saved "coilover money" and have a nice weekend with your wife / Kids or friends.

But at the end of day, it is your budget. After a serious trackday you need new brake pads, 1 or 2 sets of tires and sometimes even new brake discs. Racing is killing cars. Even an M.


If you never will see a racetrack with your car you can be happy with only a set of springs or MP HAS. But the forum here is full of posts about worn out oem shocks with springs only ...

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I very much agree with this statement. I've also learned from experience that suspension tuning is a very fine art that's quite challenging to master.

This is why I trust what the ///M engineers have done and went with the MP-HAS. They have all the chassis data and development environment to make the best product. I have to say I am very happy with how it performs.

But, isn't the HAS system basically designed and built by KW? With some improvements for clearance?

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

So many choices but looking for your input.

I have a 2016 F80 non-EDC non-ZCP. I like the way the car feels but want to upgrade for track days. First and foremost is the feel. If I go coil overs, will I lose that M-car feel? Or will I love it? Reviews of BMW HAS to me sound like "this is what the car should have been from the factory". I don't get that same sense from owners of TCK coil overs.

Pretty much torn between TC Kline DA's and the BMW MP HAS.

Would recommend figuring out your needs and how many times you expect to visit the track. TCKs are great, but can be a bit noisy for daily driving, some just aren't prepared for that.

Don't even bother with KW V3s for the track, they are a street setup. MPE/HAS (or Ohlins R&T) pretty much suit everyone's needs for the street. For the track, you have your choice of AST/Moton, JRZ, Clubsports (KW) and TCK. Don't forget pads & fluid.

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

So many choices but looking for your input.

I have a 2016 F80 non-EDC non-ZCP. I like the way the car feels but want to upgrade for track days. First and foremost is the feel. If I go coil overs, will I lose that M-car feel? Or will I love it? Reviews of BMW HAS to me sound like "this is what the car should have been from the factory". I don't get that same sense from owners of TCK coil overs.


Pretty much torn between TC Kline DA's and the BMW MP HAS.

coilovers all day especially since you are non edc as you have several options. do it right out of the box. HAS is a glorified OE aftermarket kit. I had KW HAS on my '16 and now KW DDC on my '18. do it right and get new dampers with springs. Not sure what you mean by M car feel but imho unless you get high spring rates, you should be fine with any setup as most of them are compliant with street use

[ptper]

I sold my MP HAS from my last car thinking I was going to do it right with a full coilover setup on my current. The DDC intrigues me but spending that much money makes me cringe, especially if I'm just trying to dial in stance and won't be tracking. I could go V3's (nice rebate sale going on too), but it looks slammed on the rears. You can't even get the non-ddc Bilsteins right now. Which puts me full circle on the MP HAS again. Christ.

Oh, and bags, forget it, only heard nightmare stories if chit were to go wrong, lol.

[clutchdj]

I completely understand. I wanted something that would work properly with stock DDC. The OE HAS kits i think when properly coded are a good choice when the car and components (shocks are relatively new). I just wanted to do things differntly this time around and am happy. but yes they are expensive.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by allinon72

But, isn't the HAS system basically designed and built by KW? With some improvements for clearance?

Yes, but to BMW specifications. The same is true for many other suspension components that are outsourced to suppliers. If you look closely, the KW-HAS and MP-HAS springs are physically quite different.

[kcajih]

indeed you need to CS code your edc dampers after installing short springs
have anyone considered installing CS springs instead of KW/MP/Dinan?

[Modena NYC]

Originally Posted by kcajih

indeed you need to CS code your edc dampers after installing short springs
have anyone considered installing CS springs instead of KW/MP/Dinan?

It’s an interesting thought. All I need is a single finger gap reduction up front. Currently 3 fingers on driver and 3.5/4 on the passenger side with the comp pack. (Not sure why the differential? But the car only has 350 miles)

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Modena NYC

It’s an interesting thought. All I need is a single finger gap reduction up front. Currently 3 fingers on driver and 3.5/4 on the passenger side with the comp pack. (Not sure why the differential? But the car only has 350 miles)

Agreed - half inch drop up front is all it needs. I don't like my cars to look lowered....just good.

[cliverman]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Would recommend figuring out your needs and how many times you expect to visit the track. TCKs are great, but can be a bit noisy for daily driving, some just aren't prepared for that.

Don't even bother with KW V3s for the track, they are a street setup. MPE/HAS (or Ohlins R&T) pretty much suit everyone's needs for the street. For the track, you have your choice of AST/Moton, JRZ, Clubsports (KW) and TCK. Don't forget pads & fluid.

Tom - so KW3s are no good for tracks days? I'm looking at these for 1/2 track days a year and DD.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by cliverman

Tom - so KW3s are no good for tracks days? I'm looking at these for 1/2 track days a year and DD.

V3s are terrible on the track, it's intended for street.

Look into at least Ohlins R&T, Clubsports or Moton/AST.

[Justin.AutoTalent]

Originally Posted by cliverman

Tom - so KW3s are no good for tracks days? I'm looking at these for 1/2 track days a year and DD.

I did 3 track days at thermal in my last M3 with just V3s. I don't think they're bad at all. I put 30k daily driven miles on my 2016 F80 M3

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by kcajih

indeed you need to CS code your edc dampers after installing short springs
have anyone considered installing CS springs instead of KW/MP/Dinan?

No you don’t. You only need a minimum version of your car’s specific EDC software. Further, apparently the MP-HAS are not approved for the M3cs (they are for the M4cs though).

The CS springs are the same as the base M3 and CP M4. The swaybars are a mix of CP and base. The M4cs has higher quoted total height compared to the CP and Base M4.

[ptper]

Originally Posted by ptper

I sold my MP HAS from my last car thinking I was going to do it right with a full coilover setup on my current. The DDC intrigues me but spending that much money makes me cringe, especially if I'm just trying to dial in stance and won't be tracking. I could go V3's (nice rebate sale going on too), but it looks slammed on the rears. You can't even get the non-ddc Bilsteins right now. Which puts me full circle on the MP HAS again. Christ.

Oh, and bags, forget it, only heard nightmare stories if chit were to go wrong, lol.

So, I ended up purchasing the MP HAS again, instead of getting the DDC. Then, the rebate sale on the V3's happened, and I ended up purchasing that set as well.

Then went back and forth every day while waiting for the weather to stabilize. Finally got them on yesterday and in the end went with the V3's. They ride fine so far with my whole 2 hours of seat time. Stance looks good so far, though I think I will go back to raise the rears and lower the front a bit more.

Here it is after install (sorry for the dirty pic). I've got my winter wheels loaded in the back seat and trunk, so I'm thinking that's the reason for it looking lower than when I saw it 30 minutes earlier in the bay. I'll be putting up the MP HAS for sale soon. (Only opened the box to inspect and grab pics). Brand new with the hardware bolts. Hopefully, I'm done unless something else comes out on the market and blows us away. lol.

[LYTSOUT]

Originally Posted by Modena NYC

Can someone explain how bmw or Dinan even get away with a adj spring kit or has or whatever you call
It? Springs and shocks ALWAYS have to be matched. If you just add springs (like a lot of people do) it will ride like crap and blow out the shocks in minimal time...been there done that. Are the EDC shocks able to accommodate leas travel with supported rebound given that there is less spring?

I’m a little old school but general nothing beats quality matched coil overs. That said this is my street car and the comp pack ride is sublime with the edc. The gap is horrendous. I won’t sacrifice ride quality for looks but I’m confused how bmw is now offering a solution like this.

Please explain to me. Adding springs or just lowering a car on factory shocks does NOT work and is not a long term solution.

According to the Bilstein tech I spoke with regarding the Damptronics on my 997S:

Shocks can accommodate springs with rates that are +/- 15% of what they were valved for. So if you want to go stiffer without revalving, you can go up 15%. If you want to soften, you can go down 15%. If you want >15% in either direction, you need to revalve.

Assuming this theory is relatively consistent for all dampers in all makes, it would suggest that the M Perm HAS are no more than 15% stiffer than OEM springs which is what allows them to operate within the OEM damper range.

FWIW, this issue arose when I was trying to tune the Bilstein Damptronics (electronic PSS10s) on my 997S. In that car with that setup, the ride is fantastic on the track in Sport mode, but too harsh on shitty Indianapolis streets even in Comfort mode. So I called Bilstein and spoke to one of their techs about possible solutions. It was during this call that he explained swapping springs vs revalving options.

It's possible that I'm inappropriately extrapolating specs from aftermarket Porsche dampers to OEM BMW dampers, but I heard that figure/range from the mouth of a Bilstein expert so it's at least in the back of my mind. Furthermore, it's possible that the BMW EDC software update allows that range to be a bit broader than 15%. Either way, I'm reasonably confident that the BMW factory guys knew what they were doing when they designed this kit.

In full disclosure, I don't have an F80 (yet), but if/when I do get one, this is one of the first mods I'm planning b/c I'm so disappointed in the suspension of my F30 M Sport despite having EDC. And, yes, I tried updating the EDC with the Dinan suspension flash, but my car is one of the [supposedly] rare examples of ones that won't accept it, and I don't want to bother dropping it unless I can also stiffen the dampers...so now I'm F80 shopping which is why I'm creeping all over this F80 suspension forum.

[hellokitty]

Does MP HAS help stabilize the rear when cornering on a road with imperfections/bumps? That is the one thing I'd like to address (currently on ZCP w/CS EDC coding).