M4GTS Vs Porsche GT3 RS

[deeldoo]

I have seen and heard a million reviews about how the M4 GTS is overpriced, underperforming, complicated blah blah blah..

At that price point in first appearance it might seems true but in reality how does the gts perform against a GT3RS on a technical track.

This is taking in to account you have an experienced/potentially professional driver, you have days to set up suspension (dampening, toe, camber, etc.) and other than that the cars are what they come from factory with.

Is it just me or is the GTS one of those cars you can adjust a million things with and once dialled in it can be extremely capable bordering supercar territory.

I had seen a few articles and reviews stating that out the box it seems that it would be overpriced but when you get to the multi way suspension adjustability and dialling in what you need it can be a weapon.

Just wondering if there is anyone with actual experience or just extensive know how, how would these cars fair?

[SYT_Shadow]

First of all, the GTS cost 130k US new. There is no reason that it should be compared to a GT3 RS which costs 200k US new.
The only reason those two cars are compared is because journalists are mentally challenged and compare things with ridiculous price gaps.

For example, whenever Corvette releases the C8 Z06, it'll cost less than a base 992 Carrera, yet you can be sure it will be compared vs the GT3 or the GT3 RS. Because retardedness.

The GTS is a fast car, the GT3 RS is also a fast car. We have one person here who actually owns and tracks his GTS and 991.2 GT3, so they are likely the ones who can give the best feedback FormulaMMM

The GTS has a 3 way suspension which is manually adjustable. This is a big detriment for car reviews where a journalist has no idea how to do those adjustments, yet has sufficient intelligence to press the 'Sport+' button in the GT3 RS.

You will find the biggest factor with track use is driver skill. A simple CS takes out the fastest red run group GT3 RSs without trouble, but not because the CS is faster in equal hands but because the GT3 RS drivers are not as good as they should be.

[clutchdj]

^Facts!!!

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

First of all, the GTS cost 130k US new. There is no reason that it should be compared to a GT3 RS which costs 200k US new.
The only reason those two cars are compared is because journalists are mentally challenged and compare things with ridiculous price gaps.

For example, whenever Corvette releases the C8 Z06, it'll cost less than a base 992 Carrera, yet you can be sure it will be compared vs the GT3 or the GT3 RS. Because retardedness.

The GTS is a fast car, the GT3 RS is also a fast car. We have one person here who actually owns and tracks his GTS and 991.2 GT3, so they are likely the ones who can give the best feedback FormulaMMM

The GTS has a 3 way suspension which is manually adjustable. This is a big detriment for car reviews where a journalist has no idea how to do those adjustments, yet has sufficient intelligence to press the 'Sport+' button in the GT3 RS.

You will find the biggest factor with track use is driver skill. A simple CS takes out the fastest red run group GT3 RSs without trouble, but not because the CS is faster in equal hands but because the GT3 RS drivers are not as good as they should be.

The GT3 RS is a benchmark street legal performance car. The M4 GTS is kind of a mess. If you want the best versus a mess, you gotta pay to play. If you’re budget challenged at the $130k price point, the 991.2S or the 992S has better track performance than M4 GTS at a similar price point and both are super comfy as daily drivers as well.

Silly, immature generalization about driver skills of those owning GT3 RSs. Some of the best drivers I know and have raced with for years have GT3 RSs. It’s just that guys with real track and car control skills are typically spending their weekends racing wheel to wheel and not at HPDEs in the red run group.

[4play]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Silly, immature generalization about driver skills of those owning GT3 RSs. Some of the best drivers I know and have raced with for years have GT3 RSs. It’s just that guys with real track and car control skills are typically spending their weekends racing wheel to wheel and not at HPDEs in the red run group.

Lol he must have struck a nerve! I don't think there was any generalization there. Just stating that driver skill makes a huge difference.

And wheel to wheel racing isn't indicate of raw pace either. Just look at vast swathes of the field at PCA race weekends, Ferrari Challenge, Super Trofeo, etc. Some of those guys are woefully off the pace, but have the dough to compete in those series and so there they are.

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

The GT3 RS is a benchmark street legal performance car. The M4 GTS is kind of a mess. If you want the best versus a mess, you gotta pay to play. If you’re budget challenged at the $130k price point, the 991.2S or the 992S has better track performance than M4 GTS at a similar price point and both are super comfy as daily drivers as well.

Huh? The 991.1 GT3 RS was 50% more expensive than the M4 GTS, so of course it is a quicker and more competent track car. The M4 GTS makes a little over 120kg of downforce at 186mph - the 991.1RS makes 3x as much. I don't really follow what you're trying to say ("best vs mess").

The M4 GTS isn't $130k, it's $75-85k these days. The 991.2S is slower than an M4 GTS and the 992S is only 1-2 seconds faster around the Nurburgring but costs $120k+. For a BMW fan, an M4 GTS is an interesting value proposition - limited production and almost certain to appreciate, fastest production BMW ever produced, relatively cheap, and very usable. For the same money, you could get into a 981 GT4 or 996 GT3, and there are certainly people who would go down that path instead - both are great cars, although the 996 GT3 is perhaps not as daily drivable as the GTS.


OP, to answer your question, the correct in-period car to compare the M4 GTS to is the 991.1 GT3. They were almost the same MSRP - the GT3's base price was about $3k lower, but didn't include things that were stock on the M4 GTS like ceramic brakes. Most of the GT3s were optioned significantly higher than the GTS, which had only 1 option (carbon wheels). They are very similar in terms of on-track performance out of the box. The M4 GTS can be greatly improved with some chassis setup and camber plates, but will still be behind the 991.1 RS (as it should be given the price differential).

991.2 GT3/GT3RS are a whole different animal and you would struggle to keep up in an M4 GTS, assuming driver skill is equivalent.

[MaX PL]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

The GT3 RS is a benchmark street legal performance car. The M4 GTS is kind of a mess. If you want the best versus a mess, you gotta pay to play. If you’re budget challenged at the $130k price point, the 991.2S or the 992S has better track performance than M4 GTS at a similar price point and both are super comfy as daily drivers as well.

Silly, immature generalization about driver skills of those owning GT3 RSs. Some of the best drivers I know and have raced with for years have GT3 RSs. It’s just that guys with real track and car control skills are typically spending their weekends racing wheel to wheel and not at HPDEs in the red run group.

yup.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by deeldoo

Is it just me or is the GTS one of those cars you can adjust a million things with and once dialled in it can be extremely capable bordering supercar territory.

I had seen a few articles and reviews stating that out the box it seems that it would be overpriced but when you get to the multi way suspension adjustability and dialling in what you need it can be a weapon.

Not just you. These adjustments and details define the GTS’s track performance.

If you pull a GT4 racer off the trailer in transport ride height and leave as is, no damping adjustments, no alignment optimization, you have a grossly underperforming car. Seconds off the pace of equal class (power, weight, tires) cars that have been optimized. It would “suck.”

The GTS problem isn’t the car, but the conception of it, how almost all have approached and tested it. If you think of and test it as a showroom track-ready car, then your results will be shit. If you think of it as a GT4 racer that starts in baseline transport spec, with progress coming down to driver and innumerable setup adjustments tailored to each track and the conditions, then you’re on the right path.

That process is not for everybody. Admit the available adjustments are beyond my current knowledge base, but with each small adjustment I’ve gained an appreciation for the depth of performance optimization that’s there.

I find the incremental progress and understanding rewarding. Car is already properly fast and ludicrously fun, so even if I make little to no headway from current pace, not really a problem or concern.

There’s also low hanging fruit performance to be gained beyond the factory-imposed limitations of the car – another member has suggested that a drop in rear ride height below the blocking rings improves rear traction, which is really the car’s only weakness. I don’t doubt that.

Star spec Cup 2 is another factory-imposed artificial limitation. Generic spec Supercar 3R in stock sizes (on stock 666M) gained ~1 second/lap and more durability.

Once I think I’ve hit the limit of the current setup, I might pop for some FI-R’s and Hoosiers… Speculate ride height, alignment, and damper optimization plus race spec wheels and tires would put me in 1:35 lap territory at my home track. Maybe a 1:34 if I nail it on a cold day with a little tailwind.

Viper ACR production car record (set by the factory team) is about a 1:32, so fast enough. And once again, I’ll be having a guaranteed blast the entire time. GTS is stupid fun.

Based upon my experiences on track with and driving GT3 and RS’s –

In stock track spec, if you’re willing to go full sacrificial mode on CCB brakes and Cup 2’s, and with minimal damper tweaks, the GTS is 991.1 GT3 fast on a technical circuit. Near as makes no difference.

Throw some proper tires, camber plates, and more alignment/suspension optimization at the GTS and it’s somewhere between 991.1 GT3 and 991.1 RS pace on a technical circuit.

Sometimes GT car pace is a bit overcomplicated. Not to say they’re not beautifully engineered track cars in many ways, but they’re really damn fast in a straight line. Most relevant data point I have for that is my .2 6MT GT3 is almost identical with a tuned, track-prepped GTS down
Sebring’s Ullman Straight -- ~60 to 150 mph. Probably slight edge to the stock GT3.

Down that same straight I’m in maintenance throttle mode in the GT3 letting GT4 race cars pass and then easily running them back down before they lose me everywhere else.

[deeldoo]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Not just you. These adjustments and details define the GTS's track performance.

If you pull a GT4 racer off the trailer in transport ride height and leave as is, no damping adjustments, no alignment optimization, you have a grossly underperforming car. Seconds off the pace of equal class (power, weight, tires) cars that have been optimized. It would "suck."

The GTS problem isn't the car, but the conception of it, how almost all have approached and tested it. If you think of and test it as a showroom track-ready car, then your results will be shit. If you think of it as a GT4 racer that starts in baseline transport spec, with progress coming down to driver and innumerable setup adjustments tailored to each track and the conditions, then you're on the right path.

That process is not for everybody. Admit the available adjustments are beyond my current knowledge base, but with each small adjustment I've gained an appreciation for the depth of performance optimization that's there.

I find the incremental progress and understanding rewarding. Car is already properly fast and ludicrously fun, so even if I make little to no headway from current pace, not really a problem or concern.

There's also low hanging fruit performance to be gained beyond the factory-imposed limitations of the car – another member has suggested that a drop in rear ride height below the blocking rings improves rear traction, which is really the car's only weakness. I don't doubt that.

Star spec Cup 2 is another factory-imposed artificial limitation. Generic spec Supercar 3R in stock sizes (on stock 666M) gained ~1 second/lap and more durability.

Once I think I've hit the limit of the current setup, I might pop for some FI-R's and Hoosiers… Speculate ride height, alignment, and damper optimization plus race spec wheels and tires would put me in 1:35 lap territory at my home track. Maybe a 1:34 if I nail it on a cold day with a little tailwind.

Viper ACR production car record (set by the factory team) is about a 1:32, so fast enough. And once again, I'll be having a guaranteed blast the entire time. GTS is stupid fun.

Based upon my experiences on track with and driving GT3 and RS's –

In stock track spec, if you're willing to go full sacrificial mode on CCB brakes and Cup 2's, and with minimal damper tweaks, the GTS is 991.1 GT3 fast on a technical circuit. Near as makes no difference.

Throw some proper tires, camber plates, and more alignment/suspension optimization at the GTS and it's somewhere between 991.1 GT3 and 991.1 RS pace on a technical circuit.

Sometimes GT car pace is a bit overcomplicated. Not to say they're not beautifully engineered track cars in many ways, but they're really damn fast in a straight line. Most relevant data point I have for that is my .2 6MT GT3 is almost identical with a tuned, track-prepped GTS down
Sebring's Ullman Straight -- ~60 to 150 mph. Probably slight edge to the stock GT3.

Down that same straight I'm in maintenance throttle mode in the GT3 letting GT4 race cars pass and then easily running them back down before they lose me everywhere else.

Thank you for the write up, that explains alot.

I figured it would be a bit more complicated than "Gts is a waste of money and sucks".

I guess you ultimately have to be just a tiny bit of a nerdy track rat to appreciate it

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

. If you think of it as a GT4 racer that starts in baseline transport spec, with progress coming down to driver and innumerable setup adjustments tailored to each track and the conditions, then you’re on the right path.

In stock track spec, if you’re willing to go full sacrificial mode on CCB brakes and Cup 2’s, and with minimal damper tweaks, the GTS is 991.1 GT3 fast on a technical circuit. Near as makes no difference.

Great post.

I re read it twice and I instinctively reached down to protect my wallet from the cash outflow of test and tune you just described to dial in a gts. Not to mention “full sacrificial mode” on CCB and cup 2.

Are good condition gts really down to $70k range these days? What a great value for a shoo-in future collectible.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Great post.

I re read it twice and I instinctively reached down to protect my wallet from the cash outflow of test and tune you just described to dial in a gts. Not to mention “full sacrificial mode” on CCB and cup 2.

Are good condition gts really down to $70k range these days? What a great value for a shoo-in future collectible.

Made you clutch your wallet

70's and 80's. So much fun for the $.