BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-11-2020, 11:21 AM   #1
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

I’ve tracked all my BMWs since purchasing an E36 M3 many years ago. I’ve found the cost of tracking them reasonable. Most of the time it was pads, fluid, suitable rubber, and the occasional camber plate. The cars themselves have been very reliable mechanically, nothing broke that shouldn’t have, oil changes are $100 at the friendly dealer, tires last 4-5 events and insurance is around $300+ when I go to tracks where I push myself.

The initial outlay was $2800 wheels/tires, $1200 camber plates plus install and alignment, $550 brake pads, $150 brake fluid plus change. I estimate I spend around $2200 every season (6 events) on consumables: start with a fresh set of $1200 tires, plus 50% front tires around $550, 50% brake pads $275 and one fluid change $150.

To summarize $4,700 initial outlay and $2,200 per season thereafter.

I now find myself contemplating a suspension swap, that’s another $4-5k to get to the “next level”, laptimes sure but also better feel and handling in all situations. But should I? Or should I cut my losses and get a secondhand 911 GTS or equivalent, which might have the benefit of a gentler depreciation curve (well unless you put miles on them).

I am fortunate to have a friend who went through a collection of very nice cars, GT3, RS and GT4 included, and generous enough to let me drive them, so I have a good idea for what I am missing in terms of feel, handling, sound and overall level of specialness. That said, my budget would only stretch to a used GTS I think, and a GT4 is out of the question since it doesn’t have the required front axle lift (don’t ask).

I know some of you went from BMW to Porsche, and I’m curious how it compares. I’ve heard nightmare stories about $600 oil changes, I’ve seen a few strange fiddly things with a 991.1 GT3 at Summit Point, but I’d like to hear from people first hand about their experiences.

Are the end to end costs comparable, or not at all? My car gets driven often and hard, is never spared in the winter and must serve reasonably well on the daily grind.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i

Last edited by adc; 04-11-2020 at 11:22 AM.. Reason: Title
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2020, 12:24 PM   #2
Laertes
New Member
46
Rep
18
Posts

Drives: Gray
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Hunting apexes

iTrader: (0)

I have both an F82 CP and a '19 GT3RS. Both are used regularly on the track, so I think I can comment fairly accurately.

Really, I think the main determinant of cost is how fast do you want to go? Both cars out of the box are super quick, and if you are new to the track game both on OEM everything will be really fun reliable track cars and you'll be able to keep up with pretty much anything up to the advanced groups. Once you are an advanced driver or instructor you will be going fast enough you will need to upgrade some components and if you enter the speed arms race it gets expensive quickly.

My F82 CP has camber plates, RE10 pads, SRF fluid, a set of 18" Apex wheels running Nitto NT01, and a track alignment. That's it. And it's incredibly fast and can keep up with all but the fastest cars (Porsche GT cars, set up Corvettes, etc). I'm blown away how capable and fun this car is. And the best part is I can fit a whole set of track wheels in the back seat leaving the trunk empty to haul the rest of my gear. And when not in track mode I can put two kid's car seats in the back and take the whole family out for ice cream. It is without a doubt the most versatile track ready car there is.

My RS is a bit more set up but not that much. It has a half cage and harnesses and a set of AP Essex brakes with Ferodo pads with high temp brake fluid. I run the OEM wheels and tires as they are incredibly fast and I don't want to go down the slippery slope that is Hoosiers or slicks as it rapidly spirals into needing a trailer and tow vehicle and a place to store both. That adds to the expense pretty significantly....

The tire expense is where the cars differ significantly. First, a set of 18" NT01 for the M4 are (or were; I haven't checked pricing lately) about $1150. And they can be run to the cords. I get about 8-10 days out of a set and I'm not lollygagging around the track.

The RS, on the other hand, is about $2000 for a set of Sport Maxx Race 2 or Sport Cup 2. And they only last 3-5 days. They drop off between days 2 and 3, and by day 5 they are done. Actually, if you're going for lap times or trying to keep up with your fast buddies they're done after 4, but I don't mind having a day sliding around a bit at the end so I can get them to go 5. Going through tires faster is also a lot more expensive because you have to pay for a mount and balance all that much more frequently, plus the hassle of getting the car to a tire shop (and one that can handle center lock wheels in the case of the RS).

Brake pad use is pretty similar, and since I'm using RE10s in the M4 ($$$) I would say the cost is similar. The M4 is heavier and that definitely increases the brake pad wear, but the RS is just faster which probably evens that out. The RS brakes are obviously better, but I've never had any issues with the M4 on the RE10s on the OEM calipers and steel rotors. There will be a bit of fade on tracks that beat on brakes (Laguna Seca, for example) but you work around that. I would say a set of pads for both cars last a season. I know most pads for the F82 won't last that long, but the RE10s have pretty ridiculous longevity. It compensates somewhat for the cost.

Maintenance for both cars is pretty much the same in terms of what needs to be done. A track inspection, brake flush, and oil change at the beginning of the season, and another oil change half way through the season. I have to admit I haven't looked into the need for gearbox oil for either car (my F82 is DCT) but in my old 997 RS with a manual I would do a gearbox oil change at the beginning of the season too. Oil changes for the M4 are definitely cheaper; my local Porsche dealer charges $500 for an oil change, but that's ridiculous and so I take it to a local race shop and they do it (and put in better oil) for about $250.

The other thing to think about is depreciation. The Porsche starts out a lot more expensive, but in the GT car world a lot of these cars are tracked and so there isn't a big hang up from buyers about buying a tracked GT car second hand. You won't get as much as an untracked garage queen would (but you've also had a LOT more fun than the garage queen guy has...) but there are plenty of buyers out there who want a tracked GT car as long as it's been treated and maintained well. I suspect most people with M4s that have been tracked but not irreversibly modified take them back to stock upon selling and try to downplay the track history. Depending on how you feel about the ethics of this, it will definitely reduce the depreciation. Plus, GT cars in general hold their value pretty well (my 997 RS actually appreciated after 7 years and a bunch of track time), but as Porsche ups the production numbers this is less likely to be true. I don't expect my 991.2 GT3RS to appreciate.

So I guess the TL;DR answer is: The big difference is tires. And the difference is pretty significant.

Of course, if you really start chasing the dragon and go all in on mods, then it's a whole different kettle of fish. And you can spend as much as you want modifying either car so that's a whole different discussion.

Hope that helps....
Appreciate 26
CanAutM321104.50
Suds1595.50
Driver407197.50
jacobe92617.50
fanatic11018.50
MPoweRo428.00
jfritz271100.50
espho169.00
Gomeler500.00
Tangent296.00
guess2098515.00
David0ff1055.00
jmg18493.00
GKay28.50
ATX_M3185.50
Fabb227.50
irunalot1515.50
Max36019.50
TUDMG18.00
      04-11-2020, 05:36 PM   #3
Driver407
Second Lieutenant
Driver407's Avatar
United_States
198
Rep
240
Posts

Drives: 16' F80 M3, 02' E46 M3
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: CA

iTrader: (2)

Great comparison!
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 12:47 AM   #4
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laertes View Post
I have both an F82 CP and a '19 GT3RS. Both are used regularly on the track, so I think I can comment fairly accurately.

Really, I think the main determinant of cost is how fast do you want to go? Both cars out of the box are super quick, and if you are new to the track game both on OEM everything will be really fun reliable track cars and you'll be able to keep up with pretty much anything up to the advanced groups. Once you are an advanced driver or instructor you will be going fast enough you will need to upgrade some components and if you enter the speed arms race it gets expensive quickly.

My F82 CP has camber plates, RE10 pads, SRF fluid, a set of 18" Apex wheels running Nitto NT01, and a track alignment. That's it. And it's incredibly fast and can keep up with all but the fastest cars (Porsche GT cars, set up Corvettes, etc). I'm blown away how capable and fun this car is. And the best part is I can fit a whole set of track wheels in the back seat leaving the trunk empty to haul the rest of my gear. And when not in track mode I can put two kid's car seats in the back and take the whole family out for ice cream. It is without a doubt the most versatile track ready car there is.

My RS is a bit more set up but not that much. It has a half cage and harnesses and a set of AP Essex brakes with Ferodo pads with high temp brake fluid. I run the OEM wheels and tires as they are incredibly fast and I don't want to go down the slippery slope that is Hoosiers or slicks as it rapidly spirals into needing a trailer and tow vehicle and a place to store both. That adds to the expense pretty significantly....

The tire expense is where the cars differ significantly. First, a set of 18" NT01 for the M4 are (or were; I haven't checked pricing lately) about $1150. And they can be run to the cords. I get about 8-10 days out of a set and I'm not lollygagging around the track.

The RS, on the other hand, is about $2000 for a set of Sport Maxx Race 2 or Sport Cup 2. And they only last 3-5 days. They drop off between days 2 and 3, and by day 5 they are done. Actually, if you're going for lap times or trying to keep up with your fast buddies they're done after 4, but I don't mind having a day sliding around a bit at the end so I can get them to go 5. Going through tires faster is also a lot more expensive because you have to pay for a mount and balance all that much more frequently, plus the hassle of getting the car to a tire shop (and one that can handle center lock wheels in the case of the RS).

Brake pad use is pretty similar, and since I'm using RE10s in the M4 ($$$) I would say the cost is similar. The M4 is heavier and that definitely increases the brake pad wear, but the RS is just faster which probably evens that out. The RS brakes are obviously better, but I've never had any issues with the M4 on the RE10s on the OEM calipers and steel rotors. There will be a bit of fade on tracks that beat on brakes (Laguna Seca, for example) but you work around that. I would say a set of pads for both cars last a season. I know most pads for the F82 won't last that long, but the RE10s have pretty ridiculous longevity. It compensates somewhat for the cost.

Maintenance for both cars is pretty much the same in terms of what needs to be done. A track inspection, brake flush, and oil change at the beginning of the season, and another oil change half way through the season. I have to admit I haven't looked into the need for gearbox oil for either car (my F82 is DCT) but in my old 997 RS with a manual I would do a gearbox oil change at the beginning of the season too. Oil changes for the M4 are definitely cheaper; my local Porsche dealer charges $500 for an oil change, but that's ridiculous and so I take it to a local race shop and they do it (and put in better oil) for about $250.

The other thing to think about is depreciation. The Porsche starts out a lot more expensive, but in the GT car world a lot of these cars are tracked and so there isn't a big hang up from buyers about buying a tracked GT car second hand. You won't get as much as an untracked garage queen would (but you've also had a LOT more fun than the garage queen guy has...) but there are plenty of buyers out there who want a tracked GT car as long as it's been treated and maintained well. I suspect most people with M4s that have been tracked but not irreversibly modified take them back to stock upon selling and try to downplay the track history. Depending on how you feel about the ethics of this, it will definitely reduce the depreciation. Plus, GT cars in general hold their value pretty well (my 997 RS actually appreciated after 7 years and a bunch of track time), but as Porsche ups the production numbers this is less likely to be true. I don't expect my 991.2 GT3RS to appreciate.

So I guess the TL;DR answer is: The big difference is tires. And the difference is pretty significant.

Of course, if you really start chasing the dragon and go all in on mods, then it's a whole different kettle of fish. And you can spend as much as you want modifying either car so that's a whole different discussion.

Hope that helps....
This a great comparison, helps a lot! Thank you.

Depreciation is tricky. My friend had a 991.1 GT3 RS and between the $250k purchase price and the $180k value at the end, it basically depreciated a whole F80. Most likely less so with a GT3 or GTS.

My experience with the F80 mirrors yours. I’ve graduated into Advanced over the past 2 years in most track outfits, so it’s fair to say I’m not hanging about, but far from the fastest guy. Chasing laptimes is meaningful to me in terms of self improvement mostly, and I realize the GT3RS I pass on track is either a less experienced driver, or someone who pays attention to the value of the car.

I’m tempted to do the suspension since I’ve never had a “proper” suspension on any of my cars and my race shops likes the Ohlins for a dual purpose car.

When my Nittos die (assuming the track season restarts at all this year) I’ll switch to RE71R, I hear good words about them. And I’ll definitely look into a set of RE10 pads, thank you for the tip.

Would you mind sharing where you buy these?
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 1
      04-12-2020, 08:37 AM   #5
bimmerboyE92
Captain
United_States
412
Rep
737
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Louisville, KY

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
I started tracking with my F80 but quickly purchased an E36. My lap times in my E36 are equivalent to the F80 and the consumables are dirt cheap!
Appreciate 1
MaynardZed1231.00
      04-12-2020, 09:24 AM   #6
MaynardZed
Lieutenant Colonel
MaynardZed's Avatar
United_States
1231
Rep
1,789
Posts

Drives: wife crazy
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I made the switch a couple of years ago. Went from a 2015 M4 6MT to a 2016 991.1 GTS 7MT. A carrera like mine is probably a lot more of a fair comparison to the F8X than a GT3. These were/are both occasional track day/DE/TT cars since my main focus is W2W racing in my E36.

Both are great track cars. The M4 was blast to drive, you have to work a little harder to drive it fast though. All things being equal the Porsche is quicker. Shorter wheelbase, sharper handling, and even power delivery are just a few of the Porshe's advantages.

As far as costs go. The BMW will be cheaper for most people that would track them a lot. For me the cost were a lot closer though. I ended up throwing on a set of Cup 2's on the Porsche and calling it good for both street and track since I don't drive it much. No need for a second set of wheels / tires for me. Also, the stock brake pads on the Porsche are good enough, I didn't feel the need to put on track pads (unlike the BMW). It was always a little annoying to have to switch brake pads back and forth on the M4. You wouldn't want to be switching wheels a lot on the Porche because the center locks are PITA. I think the tools alone to do wheel changes were like $1000 if I remember correctly. If you start getting into second sets of wheels and tires, a Porsche will get real expensive real fast. No way you're getting a second set of wheels inside a Porsche either, so now you're talking about truck / trailer etc! $$

I went back and found videos of the two different cars with me driving on the same track, FYI:

M4


911
__________________
Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352
Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT
WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889
Appreciate 4
David0ff1055.00
agentrnge376.00
irunalot1515.50
      04-12-2020, 09:43 AM   #7
Laertes
New Member
46
Rep
18
Posts

Drives: Gray
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Hunting apexes

iTrader: (0)

I got my RE10 pads from BBi Autosport in Socal. One other pad I might try for the M4 (though I haven't done the research to see if they are available in the right shape for the M4) is the Ferodo 3.12. This is what I use on my RS and they are awesome.

One thing to think about in terms of changing the suspension on your M4 is whether this is a long term car, or if you are serious about changing (notice I didn't say "upgrading"....) to a Porsche. If you think you'll stick with the car for a few years then spending the not insignificant $$$ on the suspension, installation, and alignment makes sense. But if you think you might want to change to a different car in a year or two you might regret doing the suspension if you have to pull it back off the car to sell it. That's a hassle. If you think you might move to the Porsche or something else soon then just stick with the OEM suspension for now. It's amazingly capable. I went down the adjustable suspension route with my 997 RS and I regretted it, and it ended up being really expensive when it was all said and done. I don't remember what I paid to have it installed (and uninstalled) but it was a lot.




Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
This a great comparison, helps a lot! Thank you.

Depreciation is tricky. My friend had a 991.1 GT3 RS and between the $250k purchase price and the $180k value at the end, it basically depreciated a whole F80. Most likely less so with a GT3 or GTS.

My experience with the F80 mirrors yours. I’ve graduated into Advanced over the past 2 years in most track outfits, so it’s fair to say I’m not hanging about, but far from the fastest guy. Chasing laptimes is meaningful to me in terms of self improvement mostly, and I realize the GT3RS I pass on track is either a less experienced driver, or someone who pays attention to the value of the car.

I’m tempted to do the suspension since I’ve never had a “proper” suspension on any of my cars and my race shops likes the Ohlins for a dual purpose car.

When my Nittos die (assuming the track season restarts at all this year) I’ll switch to RE71R, I hear good words about them. And I’ll definitely look into a set of RE10 pads, thank you for the tip.

Would you mind sharing where you buy these?
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 10:46 AM   #8
StealYourFace
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
260
Rep
1,794
Posts

Drives: F30 328i M 6mt, E36 M3
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Shakedown Street, Buffalo NY

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunately I only have tracked my BMWs as well, but my buddy down the street had a 996 and now has an 08 Cayman S. Those cars are dirt cheap now, and have depreciated to the point where I think they have hit the bottom. 3000 pounds oem, 325 hp, solid factory brakes and inexpensive upgrades available since so many porsche parts are interchangeable. Why not dip your foot in the water with something like that rather than a new car? You'll know quickly if you like it and can get out of it without taking a hit if you decide you want the newer car.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 01:40 PM   #9
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace View Post
Unfortunately I only have tracked my BMWs as well, but my buddy down the street had a 996 and now has an 08 Cayman S. Those cars are dirt cheap now, and have depreciated to the point where I think they have hit the bottom. 3000 pounds oem, 325 hp, solid factory brakes and inexpensive upgrades available since so many porsche parts are interchangeable. Why not dip your foot in the water with something like that rather than a new car? You'll know quickly if you like it and can get out of it without taking a hit if you decide you want the newer car.
I’ve thought about it, but due to other life constraints, I cannot have an extra car that isn’t a daily. We’re soon to be a 4 car family, there is too much hassle and cost involved in storing, insuring, fixing a track car.

And those Porsche’s you mentioned won’t be faster than an M4, I don’t think.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 01:41 PM   #10
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92 View Post
I started tracking with my F80 but quickly purchased an E36. My lap times in my E36 are equivalent to the F80 and the consumables are dirt cheap!
Is your E36 a daily or at least street car? Most E36’s I see at the track which are as fast or faster than an F80 are dedicated track machines, with all that implies.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 01:42 PM   #11
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laertes View Post
I got my RE10 pads from BBi Autosport in Socal. One other pad I might try for the M4 (though I haven't done the research to see if they are available in the right shape for the M4) is the Ferodo 3.12. This is what I use on my RS and they are awesome.

One thing to think about in terms of changing the suspension on your M4 is whether this is a long term car, or if you are serious about changing (notice I didn't say "upgrading"....) to a Porsche. If you think you'll stick with the car for a few years then spending the not insignificant $$$ on the suspension, installation, and alignment makes sense. But if you think you might want to change to a different car in a year or two you might regret doing the suspension if you have to pull it back off the car to sell it. That's a hassle. If you think you might move to the Porsche or something else soon then just stick with the OEM suspension for now. It's amazingly capable. I went down the adjustable suspension route with my 997 RS and I regretted it, and it ended up being really expensive when it was all said and done. I don't remember what I paid to have it installed (and uninstalled) but it was a lot.
Thank you.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2020, 01:51 PM   #12
Tanzif80
Enlisted Member
Tanzif80's Avatar
20
Rep
34
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

I had a 2001 996 turbo for about 7 years with probably about 20 track days over that time plus numerous autocrosses in between. I now have a 2018 M3 comp for a couple years now and probably have 6 track days on it and 3 autocross events.

As far as mods on the 996 I had a pss9 suspension different pads and rotors and a stage one reflash. The rest of the car was stock. It wasn’t a track beast like a Porsche GT car but it was good enough for me. The costs associated with running at the track like that was numerous brake pads and tires. I saw them as consumables and it cost a fair amount. I like to keep my cars in tip top shape so I did a trans flush every year I tracked it. I also did oil changes much more frequently, especially if the weather was warm. I did the brakes and fluid flushes myself but my Indy would do the rest. The rear tires on a 996 turbo would only last maybe 4 track days or about 3000 street miles depending on how hard I ran. The fronts would be replaced maybe every 3 rears. I also had the suspension and bushings refreshed a few years before I sold it. The turbo was a fantastic car to own and gave me no trouble whatsoever but the costs of keeping it that way, especially with the Porsche tax was much more than the M3 so far. The way I had it set up you couldn’t spin it on the track unless you really tried, like letting off the gas mid corner.

The M3 so far hasn’t cost me as much out of pocket aside from tires and brake pads. I just did a brake duct mod that will hopefully help with brake cooling. I have yet to test it this year. The 996 wasn’t nearly as bad at overheating with brakes as the M3 is. The M3 is also a drift machine if you aren’t careful with the throttle and can easily eat those rear tires. The M3 seems to eat front tires as well because of lack of camber.

Of course you can totally slide down the slope of money by chasing faster times and higher speeds but I prefer to keep my cars mostly as the manufacturer intended and my pockets aren’t that deep. I have a track buddy that modded his 996 so much it isn’t streetable anymore but damn he is at least 12 seconds faster per lap than me. Truly incredible but he has really deep pockets. Either way, you have to pay to play, just depends on what you wanna do. So far though, Porsche is much more expensive.
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2020, 04:47 PM   #13
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzif80 View Post
I had a 2001 996 turbo for about 7 years with probably about 20 track days over that time plus numerous autocrosses in between. I now have a 2018 M3 comp for a couple years now and probably have 6 track days on it and 3 autocross events.

As far as mods on the 996 I had a pss9 suspension different pads and rotors and a stage one reflash. The rest of the car was stock. It wasn’t a track beast like a Porsche GT car but it was good enough for me. The costs associated with running at the track like that was numerous brake pads and tires. I saw them as consumables and it cost a fair amount. I like to keep my cars in tip top shape so I did a trans flush every year I tracked it. I also did oil changes much more frequently, especially if the weather was warm. I did the brakes and fluid flushes myself but my Indy would do the rest. The rear tires on a 996 turbo would only last maybe 4 track days or about 3000 street miles depending on how hard I ran. The fronts would be replaced maybe every 3 rears. I also had the suspension and bushings refreshed a few years before I sold it. The turbo was a fantastic car to own and gave me no trouble whatsoever but the costs of keeping it that way, especially with the Porsche tax was much more than the M3 so far. The way I had it set up you couldn’t spin it on the track unless you really tried, like letting off the gas mid corner.

The M3 so far hasn’t cost me as much out of pocket aside from tires and brake pads. I just did a brake duct mod that will hopefully help with brake cooling. I have yet to test it this year. The 996 wasn’t nearly as bad at overheating with brakes as the M3 is. The M3 is also a drift machine if you aren’t careful with the throttle and can easily eat those rear tires. The M3 seems to eat front tires as well because of lack of camber.

Of course you can totally slide down the slope of money by chasing faster times and higher speeds but I prefer to keep my cars mostly as the manufacturer intended and my pockets aren’t that deep. I have a track buddy that modded his 996 so much it isn’t streetable anymore but damn he is at least 12 seconds faster per lap than me. Truly incredible but he has really deep pockets. Either way, you have to pay to play, just depends on what you wanna do. So far though, Porsche is much more expensive.
+1 to everything you said.

I have an 03 996 turbo with a few more minor mods and the X factor for me is when something breaks. I sheared first gear off the main shaft (power adders + cup 2) and it was like $8k to fix (5th got damaged too), and of that, just the first gear and mainshaft was a $3k part.

I have had minor stuff like cam sensor go (and it was on the side of the engine that’s closer to the firewall, so need a lift, and couple of hours shop labor to take off a bunch of stuff to get to it.

I had an f80 before that, and it was an order of magnitude difference in cost to track a full warranty free maintenance f80 than an old turbo. Lol.

My $0.02 OP, if you want to just keep it stock and drive it hard, would be to try and find a 6gt3 or 7gt3 that has been well maintained and try your very best to keep it shiny side up. With a 7gt3 you will probably get back close to what you paid, but maintenance will be good amount because little things add up.

Lastly, consider getting a 7cup for $50k or renting time in one and doing arrive and drive if you are only doing 6 days a year.
Appreciate 1
      04-13-2020, 06:53 PM   #14
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
+1 to everything you said.

I have an 03 996 turbo with a few more minor mods and the X factor for me is when something breaks. I sheared first gear off the main shaft (power adders + cup 2) and it was like $8k to fix (5th got damaged too), and of that, just the first gear and mainshaft was a $3k part.

I have had minor stuff like cam sensor go (and it was on the side of the engine that’s closer to the firewall, so need a lift, and couple of hours shop labor to take off a bunch of stuff to get to it.

I had an f80 before that, and it was an order of magnitude difference in cost to track a full warranty free maintenance f80 than an old turbo. Lol.

My $0.02 OP, if you want to just keep it stock and drive it hard, would be to try and find a 6gt3 or 7gt3 that has been well maintained and try your very best to keep it shiny side up. With a 7gt3 you will probably get back close to what you paid, but maintenance will be good amount because little things add up.

Lastly, consider getting a 7cup for $50k or renting time in one and doing arrive and drive if you are only doing 6 days a year.
Renting wouldn’t work for me, and a Cup comes with its own constraints (trailer, slicks, engine rebuilds, Motorsport suspension rebuilds, etc).

I didn’t consider a 7gt3, I’ll look into that. Bonus, 6sp manual.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2020, 06:54 PM   #15
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzif80 View Post
I had a 2001 996 turbo for about 7 years with probably about 20 track days over that time plus numerous autocrosses in between. I now have a 2018 M3 comp for a couple years now and probably have 6 track days on it and 3 autocross events.

As far as mods on the 996 I had a pss9 suspension different pads and rotors and a stage one reflash. The rest of the car was stock. It wasn’t a track beast like a Porsche GT car but it was good enough for me. The costs associated with running at the track like that was numerous brake pads and tires. I saw them as consumables and it cost a fair amount. I like to keep my cars in tip top shape so I did a trans flush every year I tracked it. I also did oil changes much more frequently, especially if the weather was warm. I did the brakes and fluid flushes myself but my Indy would do the rest. The rear tires on a 996 turbo would only last maybe 4 track days or about 3000 street miles depending on how hard I ran. The fronts would be replaced maybe every 3 rears. I also had the suspension and bushings refreshed a few years before I sold it. The turbo was a fantastic car to own and gave me no trouble whatsoever but the costs of keeping it that way, especially with the Porsche tax was much more than the M3 so far. The way I had it set up you couldn’t spin it on the track unless you really tried, like letting off the gas mid corner.

The M3 so far hasn’t cost me as much out of pocket aside from tires and brake pads. I just did a brake duct mod that will hopefully help with brake cooling. I have yet to test it this year. The 996 wasn’t nearly as bad at overheating with brakes as the M3 is. The M3 is also a drift machine if you aren’t careful with the throttle and can easily eat those rear tires. The M3 seems to eat front tires as well because of lack of camber.

Of course you can totally slide down the slope of money by chasing faster times and higher speeds but I prefer to keep my cars mostly as the manufacturer intended and my pockets aren’t that deep. I have a track buddy that modded his 996 so much it isn’t streetable anymore but damn he is at least 12 seconds faster per lap than me. Truly incredible but he has really deep pockets. Either way, you have to pay to play, just depends on what you wanna do. So far though, Porsche is much more expensive.
Good feedback, thank you.
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2020, 08:03 PM   #16
Tanzif80
Enlisted Member
Tanzif80's Avatar
20
Rep
34
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
+1 to everything you said.

I have an 03 996 turbo with a few more minor mods and the X factor for me is when something breaks. I sheared first gear off the main shaft (power adders + cup 2) and it was like $8k to fix (5th got damaged too), and of that, just the first gear and mainshaft was a $3k part.

I have had minor stuff like cam sensor go (and it was on the side of the engine that’s closer to the firewall, so need a lift, and couple of hours shop labor to take off a bunch of stuff to get to it.

I had an f80 before that, and it was an order of magnitude difference in cost to track a full warranty free maintenance f80 than an old turbo. Lol.

My $0.02 OP, if you want to just keep it stock and drive it hard, would be to try and find a 6gt3 or 7gt3 that has been well maintained and try your very best to keep it shiny side up. With a 7gt3 you will probably get back close to what you paid, but maintenance will be good amount because little things add up.

Lastly, consider getting a 7cup for $50k or renting time in one and doing arrive and drive if you are only doing 6 days a year.
+1
I bought my 996 at the bottom of the depreciation curve. If you can find a 996 gt3 or even a 997 gt3 you can drive the heck out of it, have fun, maintain it and when you get tired of it sell it for minimal loss. I’m going to keep the f80 a while because I love everything it does until the 991 gt3 gets into my range.
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2020, 10:12 PM   #17
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Renting wouldn’t work for me, and a Cup comes with its own constraints (trailer, slicks, engine rebuilds, Motorsport suspension rebuilds, etc).

I didn’t consider a 7gt3, I’ll look into that. Bonus, 6sp manual.
I looked into converting my 6TT to a 6GT2 replica (aka make it rwd, change front suspension and add lsd) and basically the shop (who also services and sets up cup cars) counseled me out of it, and told me to just sell my car get a cup car for the same price if I wanted to track a 911

Apparently the cup are super durable and outside of the rebuild aren’t much different to maintain than the street cars.

Just food for thought since I never seriously considered a cup car before that.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2020, 01:08 PM   #18
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Keep your F80, get suspension for it. Much better solution than buying some ancient POS to try to track.


If there's anything that BMW does well it is making cars that, for the money, are fast as hell.


It's also possible you do not need any mods at all to continue progressing. An F80 with camber plates and track pads should be able to drop below 2:10 at VIR with RE71 tires on the stock wheels

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 04-14-2020 at 03:44 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2020, 02:06 PM   #19
MaynardZed
Lieutenant Colonel
MaynardZed's Avatar
United_States
1231
Rep
1,789
Posts

Drives: wife crazy
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzif80 View Post
+1
I bought my 996 at the bottom of the depreciation curve. If you can find a 996 gt3 or even a 997 gt3 you can drive the heck out of it, have fun, maintain it and when you get tired of it sell it for minimal loss. I’m going to keep the f80 a while because I love everything it does until the 991 gt3 gets into my range.
Yeah I think waiting for 991.1 GT3 is the way to go for a dedicated track car. They seem pretty bullet proof with the PDK. Don’t have to worry about over revs. Most of the 997 GT3 are sitting in collections and aren’t seeing tracks anymore.

I’ve been seeing 991.1 GT3s in the $90k’s range
__________________
Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352
Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT
WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2020, 03:48 PM   #20
Gomeler
Lieutenant
500
Rep
411
Posts

Drives: '16 M235iR, '16 M4 GTS
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Boulder, CO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaynardZed View Post
Yeah I think waiting for 991.1 GT3 is the way to go for a dedicated track car. They seem pretty bullet proof with the PDK. Don’t have to worry about over revs. Most of the 997 GT3 are sitting in collections and aren’t seeing tracks anymore.

I’ve been seeing 991.1 GT3s in the $90k’s range
That's my plan. I have zero interest in the non-GT Porsches as I'm interested in streetable track vehicles, and I suspect the F82 GTS will keep me entertaining for a few years for hooning while I also build up/buy a NASA GTS2/3 car.

This is a pretty great thread IMO, and I feel like this sub-forum could really use a top-level sticky with links to discussions like this thread.
Appreciate 1
fanatic11018.50
      04-14-2020, 05:16 PM   #21
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
3183
Rep
10,509
Posts

Drives: C6Z
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

OP check out this ongoing auction on bring a trailer.

That car has a solid list of mods and looks to be ready to go.

One thing that I didn’t see mentioned is whether the coolant lines have been pinned.

All 996 and 997 turbo and GT cars need to have this done if they are going to be tracked hard. Most shops charge around $3k for it. It likely was done when the turbo swap was done for this car.
Appreciate 0
      04-14-2020, 07:28 PM   #22
adc
Major General
United_States
2725
Rep
6,750
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (12)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Keep your F80, get suspension for it. Much better solution than buying some ancient POS to try to track.


If there's anything that BMW does well it is making cars that, for the money, are fast as hell.


It's also possible you do not need any mods at all to continue progressing. An F80 with camber plates and track pads should be able to drop below 2:10 at VIR with RE71 tires on the stock wheels
I’m leaning this way, at least until I have a discretionary $100k budget for a track toy.

I know there was an F80 with an instructor who ran mid 2:05’s at VIR on Pirelli scrubs. So 2:08 should be possible on RE71, which will be my next mod once the Nittos are gone. In fact I think on a good day temperature wise, with a clear track, I can run 2:09’s with my current setup, without taking big risks. But the RE71 is definitely in my future.

And an Ohlins suspension. Idle hands...
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2019 Z4 3.0i
2022 X2 M35i
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:53 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST