Top Gear tests an M3 vs. a Model 3 Performance at Thunderhill

[Humdizzle]

just watched it. one thing that doesn't come across in the article is how terrible this guy drives lmao. he loses control of the tesla around one of the corners. and of course the awd car will be faster in the hands of a novice.

another thing is that even though the tesla was quicker in the 0-100-0, the bmw completed the test in a shorter distance. (ie the bmw pulls much hard than the tesla after the initial launch is over and reaches 100mph first)

[cca101]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

just watched it. one thing that doesn't come across in the article is how terrible this guy drives lmao. he loses control of the tesla around one of the corners. and of course the awd car will be faster in the hands of a novice.

another thing is that even though the tesla was quicker in the 0-100-0, the bmw completed the test in a shorter distance. (ie the bmw pulls much hard than the tesla after the initial launch is over and reaches 100mph first)

yea knew how bad this guy was at driving when i saw the lap times...I would say this guy is probably worse than the average track day guy.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by cca101

yea knew how bad this guy was at driving when i saw the lap times...I would say this guy is probably worse than the average track day guy.

Compare the aggression of driving, main example last corner coming onto the main straight. I get the feeling this is definitely some sort of fluff piece. I see they got the red carpet treatment from Telsa. They have other videos up on their site of full factory tour, road trip test using supercharging, invite to model y release. Also smart decision using a non-comp M3 on Contis and a standing start for lap time.

[kgroschi_VerdeMantis]

In my opinion both great cars.

[Germanauto]

He doesn't strike me as a great driver.

Not denying the Model 3's impressive numbers but I've always found numbers to be it for Tesla. When you actually drive them they are quite numb and uneventful. For some people that's desirable for me it's not.

Anyhow this wasn't even the ZCP and there's a new ///M due in a matter of months. Impressive how well the F80 held up the past 5 yrs.

[RoundelM3]

OK, first of all, the M3 driver apparently didn't use launch control - that probably slowed it down some on the drag race. Also don't know what modes were used for the chassis, trans, and throttle, nor whether or not MDM was engaged or traction control was completely off on any of these runs. And didn't the guy spin the Tesla on the "hot lap"? How exactly was that lap faster than the M3? The only other "test" would be the "fill-up" - I can gas up my M3 in 5 minutes at any of several convenient gas stations. Where does the Tesla have to go to find a charging station, and how long does it take for the Tesla to "fill up"? All that aside, the Tesla is "unfortunate-looking" and I suspect the build quality isn't representative of a nearly $70K car. I'll keep my M3, which is tuned and would likely blow the doors off the Tesla. I don't recall seeing any tuning capabilities for the Tesla.

[bimmer456]

Most people probably aren't cross shopping these two. Can't be the sound and weight advantage on the track. Not to mention he got multiple tries with the Tesla it seems as he spun out at least once.

[Spagolli94]

While the numbers Teslas put down are truly impressive, I can't get past the following:

1. The exterior styling looks like a modern Ford Probe (very jelly bean)
2. The interior reminds me of a Saturn Ion, with a giant Dell monitor super-glued on
3. The silence and lack of gear changes, exhaust burbles, etc. = boring
4. I take several long road trips each summer, often in very rural areas. Even if I could find multiple charging stations to support me along the way, I'd have to waste so much time sitting around and waiting for it to charge.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by RoundelM3

OK, first of all, the M3 driver apparently didn't use launch control - that probably slowed it down some on the drag race. Also don't know what modes were used for the chassis, trans, and throttle, nor whether or not MDM was engaged or traction control was completely off on any of these runs. And didn't the guy spin the Tesla on the "hot lap"? How exactly was that lap faster than the M3? The only other "test" would be the "fill-up" - I can gas up my M3 in 5 minutes at any of several convenient gas stations. Where does the Tesla have to go to find a charging station, and how long does it take for the Tesla to "fill up"? All that aside, the Tesla is "unfortunate-looking" and I suspect the build quality isn't representative of a nearly $70K car. I'll keep my M3, which is tuned and would likely blow the doors off the Tesla. I don't recall seeing any tuning capabilities for the Tesla.

the Tesla is going to win every drag race regardless. no stock m3 will beat a model 3p in the 1/4. A few bolts then yeah, its very possible. You are right the tesla can't be modified. the M3 can.

The show chops different clips together to show you a 'hot lap'. i doubt they used the spinout lap as an actual reference number. But it does show you how terrible he drives. On the last corner with the M3 you can see he's left it auto, and the car downshifts out the corner and kicks out.

the fill up is a non issue for most. you plug it every night and leave in the morning with 200 miles range or whatever it is. plenty for a daily commute. its not a cross country tourer.

[cca101]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

Compare the aggression of driving, main example last corner coming onto the main straight. I get the feeling this is definitely some sort of fluff piece. I see they got the red carpet treatment from Telsa. They have other videos up on their site of full factory tour, road trip test using supercharging, invite to model y release. Also smart decision using a non-comp M3 on Contis and a standing start for lap time.

Exactly. It's kind of annoying. I would like to see what these cars can actually do, not this nonsense. Most journalism is surely BS, but to see it trickle down to car testing is sad.

I have fellow racer friends who were part of motorcycle reviews for magazines and they told me the same thing. The other "testers" were 10 seconds off the racers' pace yet share their gold opinions about the bikes on the track, they found that humorous. They also didn't really listen to what the racers had to say.

[CanAutM3]

All of the tests the Tesla won in this article involve a standing start, even the hot lap, so it does put an AWD max torque at zero RPM EV at an advantage compared to a RWD ICE car.

Other observations regarding the M3:

• LC wasn't used in the ¼ mile and hot lap (the Tesla would have still won the ¼ mile).
• Hot lap was made in MDM (I am about 1 second slower in my car with MDM vs DSC off).

Not bashing the Tesla, EVs are the future. But this particular test was rigged to make the Tesla win.

[cca101]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

All of the tests the Tesla won in this article involve a standing start, even the hot lap, so it does put an AWD max torque at zero RPM EV at an advantage compared to a RWD ICE car.

Other observations regarding the M3:

• LC wasn't used in the ¼ mile and hot lap (the Tesla would have still won the ¼ mile).
• Hot lap was made in MDM (I am about 1 second slower in my car with MDM vs DSC off).

Not bashing the Tesla, EVs are the future. But this particular test was rigged to make the Tesla win.

Standing start for hot lap
This is getting comical

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

another thing is that even though the tesla was quicker in the 0-100-0, the bmw completed the test in a shorter distance.

Yeah, the >300kg lighter car should, and does stop faster.
I would add that M3 should, and does handle better than the TM3 in high speed corners.

Originally Posted by Germanauto

He doesn't strike me as a great driver.
Not denying the Model 3's impressive numbers but I've always found numbers to be it for Tesla. When you actually drive them they are quite numb and uneventful. For some people that's desirable for me it's not.

Agree on the driver being less than a pro, but then again it was the same driver for both cars.

However, there is nothing un-eventful about 0-60 in 3.2 seconds (not 3.5 as video quoted).
That TM3P acceleration is absolutely ridiculously addictive.

And please don't tell me that you don't care about acceleration.
Every car guy does (do some extent) !

Originally Posted by RoundelM3

OK, first of all, the M3 driver apparently didn't use launch control

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Anyhow this wasn't even the ZCP and there's a new ///M due in a matter of months.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

All of the tests the Tesla won in this article involve a standing start, even the hot lap, so it does put an AWD max torque at zero RPM EV at an advantage compared to a RWD ICE car.

ZCP or not, CS or not, launch control or not, the results would have been the same.

Any way you structure a car "test":

• A faster car will win whenever acceleration is measured.
• A lighter car will win whenever braking and high speed handling is measured.
• A heavier but faster AWD car will win on stop-accelerate tracks, while a lighter/slower car may make up the difference on tracks with a lot of fast corners. But there has to be a LOT of them.
  • Think spec Miata vs. ///M3.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

this particular test was rigged to make the Tesla win.

I would not say it was rigged, but there are other tests that could have been arranged to expose TM3P limitations better.

A 3.9 second 0-60 RWD sedan can't keep up with a 3.2 second AWD 0-60 sedan. Big freaking surprise.

Based on what we know about G80 (marginal power increase), the results will likely be the same as well.


But if you lapped both cars on the same track for 5-10-20 laps, TM3P's batteries and 235mm tires would have heat soaked, and ///M3 would have finished first.

Originally Posted by RoundelM3

The only other "test" would be the "fill-up" - I can gas up my M3 in 5 minutes at any of several convenient gas stations. Where does the Tesla have to go to find a charging station, and how long does it take for the Tesla to "fill up"?

100% full every morning for TM3.
I realize it's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but that's how it goes 99% of the time.

Originally Posted by RoundelM3

All that aside, the Tesla is "unfortunate-looking" and I suspect the build quality isn't representative of a nearly $70K car.

I LOVE the nose of Tesla Model 3 more and more.
Rear is generic, but clean and pleasing.
Interior is stunning and amazingly functional.
All of the above points are subjective as hell.

Zero build problems with mine.
Zero creaks, rattles, or paint issues.
Driving car without a key as addictively cool and convinient.

But real ///M3 does have more character and handles better.
///M3 would also be THE car I would own if I only had to have only 1 car.
Which is definitely something.
But it is absolutely, objectively slower than TM3P.

a

P.S.: You want unfortunate looking - go see a G20 at the dealership!

[Fender150]

Will the model 3 do over 180mph?
Not

[FaRKle!]

FWIW Randy did a 1:23:70 (video text erroneously says 1:25:70) in an '16 M3 ZCP at Thunderhill West when comparing to a Guilia QV.

M3 ZCP vs Guilia QV

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Yeah, the >300kg lighter car should, and does stop faster.
I would add that M3 should, and does handle better than the TM3 in high speed corners.




Agree on the driver being less than a pro, but then again it was the same driver for both cars.

However, there is nothing un-eventful about 0-60 in 3.2 seconds (not 3.5 as video quoted).
That TM3P acceleration is absolutely ridiculously addictive.

And please don't tell me that you don't care about acceleration.
Every car guy does (do some extent) !






ZCP or not, CS or not, launch control or not, the results would have been the same.

Any way you structure a car "test":

• A faster car will win whenever acceleration is measured.
• A lighter car will win whenever braking and high speed handling is measured.
• A heavier but faster AWD car will win on stop-accelerate tracks, while a lighter/slower car may make up the difference on tracks with a lot of fast corners. But there has to be a LOT of them.
  • Think spec Miata vs. ///M3.

I would not say it was rigged, but there are other tests that could have been arranged to expose TM3P limitations better.

A 3.9 second 0-60 RWD sedan can't keep up with a 3.2 second AWD 0-60 sedan. Big freaking surprise.

Based on what we know about G80 (marginal power increase), the results will likely be the same as well.


But if you lapped both cars on the same track for 5-10-20 laps, TM3P's batteries and 235mm tires would have heat soaked, and ///M3 would have finished first.




100% full every morning for TM3.
I realize it's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but that's how it goes 99% of the time.




I LOVE the nose of Tesla Model 3 more and more.
Rear is generic, but clean and pleasing.
Interior is stunning and amazingly functional.
All of the above points are subjective as hell.

Zero build problems with mine.
Zero creaks, rattles, or paint issues.
Driving car without a key as addictively cool and convinient.

But real ///M3 does have more character and handles better.
///M3 would also be THE car I would own if I only had to have only 1 car.
Which is definitely something.
But it is absolutely, objectively slower than TM3P.

a

P.S.: You want unfortunate looking - go see a G20 at the dealership!

That's the thing, I could not really care less about 0-60mph or launching from a dig with my M4. And yes, the test was rigged to make the Tesla win, the M3 lost most of the lap time difference just from that crappy launch in MDM, and that's not even talking about the driver . I would have been interesting to see a true flying lap with a pro driver.

When comparing rolling acceleration, the Tesla M3P cannot keep up with the BMW M3:

Car&Driver Tesla BMW:
60-100mph 5.4s 4.7s
60-130mph 13.6s 10.7s

Now, if the G80 goes AWD and AT, it will likely be very tight from a dig against the Tesla. But I will have moved on to something else.

Again, not bashing the TM3P, but this test is either a publicity stunt or a click bait.

[BMWsully]

So let me get this straight, they picked a base M3, didn't utilize launch control, and didn't disable DSC and the M3 was still that close? I consider that a win for the 5 year old, BASE M3.

Let's put a CS (or even a ZCP) in the hands of a real driver and see what the numbers would look like...

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by BMWsully

So let me get this straight, they picked a base M3, didn't utilize launch control, and didn't disable DSC and the M3 was still that close? I consider that a win for the 5 year old, BASE M3.

Let's put a CS (or even a ZCP) in the hands of a real driver and see what the numbers would look like...

Agreed...or, something like my M3 with no bolt-ons and just a stage 2 Alpine tune driven by someone who knows how to drive an M3 with DSC off, the DCT in manual D3 mode, and throttle/chassis in Sport+ and using LC. The engine in the new X3M/X4M is over 470 hp in base trim with Xdrive, so the G80 is likely to have even more power, particularly in Competition and CS trim.

Regarding the fill-up - what if you run out of electrons during the the day and away from home? If you're an apartment/condo dweller, where do you charge up? What if you want to drive somewhere further than half the car's range? And speaking of that, how much effect does hard driving, running A/C in summer or heat in winter affect the T3's range?

Appearance-wise, the T3 reminds me of an early Saturn. Bland is the word that comes to mind. While the G20 might be not as attractive as the F80, let's see what the G80 looks like. The "M" models always look better than the non-M's. If I'm going to spend nearly $70K for a performance car, I don't want "bland". And I also prefer something that has an invigorating sound.

At this point, EVs are practical daily-commute/urban-driving transportation appliances for people who have garages or whose apartment/condo building has charging stations or
is close to a public station. But even then, can you leave your car charging at a public station overnight?

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by cca101

Standing start for hot lap
This is getting comical

Someone else pointed out in YouTube that Top Gear has a history of standing starts for their laps... I haven't seen much of the new stuff but I do recall the stig doing standing starts around the TG test track. So maybe not a total Tesla-must-win stunt. Definitely plays into their favor and the M3 has a higher trap speed through the 1/4 so, like other Teslas, it is most impressive from a standstill.

Glad to see somewhat balanced commentary here and not just belly aching. Of course the tests did favor the Model 3 a bit but building a car to these attributes is what most manufacturers do. Hearing ratios for 0-60 times, tires for track use, suspensions for 'ring times etc. sure do wish the numbers stuff would end and they would all focus on the joy of driving a bit more .... we will never be totally happy tough,I will definitely concede that point.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by RoundelM3

Regarding the fill-up - what if you run out of electrons during the the day and away from home? If you're an apartment/condo dweller, where do you charge up? What if you want to drive somewhere further than half the car's range? And speaking of that, how much effect does hard driving, running A/C in summer or heat in winter affect the T3's range?

I’ve been daily driving an EV for just over 2 years here in Ca, and 2/3 of that time was in an 80 mi range. It’s not as inconvenient as you might think since there are so many chargers everywhere (and I have a charger in my garage)

If I was elsewhere in USA or didn’t have a garage of my own, I would have thought harder about going EV

Plan for 200mi range instead of 300mi if you are going 75+ Mph and have the heat blasting. I’ve used my Model 3 to go SF to LA (easy drive), and a friend has done Seattle to Denver in his model x 100d.

As for tracking, it’s 75 miles range instead of 300 miles, so plan to charge at lunch

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That's the thing, I could not really care less about 0-60mph or launching from a dig with my M4.

Agreed.

But 0-60 is indicative of acceleration potential, and for daily driving, that's about the only joy we get to experience.
I don't have any high speed corners on the way to work, speed limits suck, and threshold braking will all but guarantee a rear-end collision.

The acceleration in TM3P is stupid fast, and very addictive.

For a daily driver, TM3P does to ///M3 what ///M3 does to a 340i.
Both are a massive overkill for what would be more than sufficient to get you to work, but yet are Sooooooooo much more fun to drive.

For track practicality and fun, it's ///M3 > TM3P, but not by a lot, and not for the fastest lap.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And yes, the test was rigged to make the Tesla win, the M3 lost most of the lap time difference just from that crappy launch in MDM, and that's not even talking about the driver . I would have been interesting to see a true flying lap with a pro driver.

MDM and launch control alone don't add up to a ~2 second lap gap.
And that journalist clown would have killed himself with DSC OFF.


It would have been fun to have Randy Pobst conduct that test, and if someone cares enough, he has been fooling around with TM3Ps at Willow Springs. I'm sure he must have posted times in other cars there as well. I just don't care enough to research.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Now, if the G80 goes AWD and AT, it will likely be very tight from a dig against the Tesla. But I will have moved on to something else.

True, but AWD G80 will also be much heavier. Quicker, but heavier.
BMW AWD adds ~250 lbs on a 3-series, with 340iX porking upto 3968 lbs!
G80 will shave a few of those pounds, but damn, that's TM3P weight (3,627 to 4,072 lbs).

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Again, not bashing the TM3P, but this test is either a publicity stunt or a click bait.

It was a bit of both.
But still, it's remarkable.

a

[Payamm3]

I'll believe it when Dom drives one in F&F9