European Auto Source (EAS)
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-24-2019, 01:30 PM   #45
matty088
Major
231
Rep
1,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Thanks for this info. That is another indication that, as originally reported, the M3cs is more softly sprung than the M4cs.

I wonder why BMW did that...
it makes sense to me. the coding is softer too. Is what it is
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 01:50 PM   #46
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
it makes sense to me. the coding is softer too. Is what it is
It doesn't to me either. The M4 CS rides better and feels softer than my ZCP did in stock form. What I think is weird is that each progressive model is said to be stiffer but, I think actually ride better than the previous ones.

Base was terrible, ZCP was great and the M4 CS is the best yet IMO for ride quality. I wouldn't want it any softer, it would be interesting to drive a M3 CS back to back with my car to see if there is any noticeable difference.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 01:58 PM   #47
matty088
Major
231
Rep
1,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
It doesn't to me either. The M4 CS rides better and feels softer than my ZCP did in stock form. What I think is weird is that each progressive model is said to be stiffer but, I think actually ride better than the previous ones.

Base was terrible, ZCP was great and the M4 CS is the best yet IMO for ride quality. I wouldn't want it any softer, it would be interesting to drive a M3 CS back to back with my car to see if there is any noticeable difference.
ride quality "where", you know. If i lived in city areas road imperfections would bother me more. I say the tighter the better in my area (Connecticut). Therefore zcp>cs. Particularly in EDC coding.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 02:03 PM   #48
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
ride quality "where", you know. If i lived in city areas road imperfections would bother me more. I say the tighter the better in my area (Connecticut). Therefore zcp>cs. Particularly in EDC coding.
Everybody has their likes/dislikes when it comes to feel. But, firmer isn't necessarily better. And I'm not saying the CS isn't tight feeling or worse handling by any stretch, it just handles imperfections better than my ZCP in stock form did. I'll take that every day.

Also, coding will only get you so far. It isn't apples to apples depending on a lot of factors as you know.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 02:08 PM   #49
matty088
Major
231
Rep
1,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Everybody has their likes/dislikes when it comes to feel. But, firmer isn't necessarily better. And I'm not saying the CS isn't tight feeling or worse handling by any stretch, it just handles imperfections better than my ZCP in stock form did. I'll take that every day.

Also, coding will only get you so far. It isn't apples to apples depending on a lot of factors as you know.
You are right

Id wager a zcp with cs coding is probably ideal for the median person. Its definitely a more comfortable ride with a higher quality more refined feel.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 02:56 PM   #50
nicknaz
Major General
nicknaz's Avatar
United_States
2485
Rep
9,659
Posts

Drives: F31 330
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
As good as it is, I will say it was much easier to be a believer at 79k than 104,500. I'm not sure I make the switch at even the mid 90s. That would've been a much tougher decision.
not to mention, (what sounds like) a great trade in on your current 2018 ZCP

Congrats on the deal and the new car
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-24-2019, 03:27 PM   #51
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
not to mention, (what sounds like) a great trade in on your current 2018 ZCP

Congrats on the deal and the new car
Thanks, much appreciated.

I got 61k in trade plus labor help in switching my mods over. From what I'm hearing anything over 60 is pretty good and I had 14k miles on mine. So not the lowest mileage for a one year old car.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 03:32 PM   #52
spool twice
Rainbow Racer
spool twice's Avatar
United_States
153
Rep
1,451
Posts

Drives: BMW M4cs
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa Bay, FL Area

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2019 M4cs  [0.00]
I do wonder if some of the perception of a smoother ride is more due to the muted suspension impact sounds over bumps vs. the CP & base coding where it does sometimes crash through the body structure.

Thanks O/P for your feedback, especially since you've had actual track experience on various suspension set-ups including your ZCP w/ CS coding and how you managed to improve by 2 seconds off the bat on a stock CS.
__________________
-Loe P.-
Prior: '02 S4 6spd / '04 M3 SMG / '04 S4 6spd / '07 E92 335i 6spd / '09 E90 M3 DCT
Sold:'14 Audi S5 DSG [ APR ECU/TCU | Pullies + basic bolt-on mods | 10.861@127.90mph ]
Current: '19 M4cs, '17 Jetta 1.4t 5spd
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 05:04 PM   #53
Arcades
Lup's Kid
Arcades's Avatar
Taiwan
2169
Rep
3,549
Posts

Drives: 18' Grigio Medio F80
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by spool twice View Post
I do wonder if some of the perception of a smoother ride is more due to the muted suspension impact sounds over bumps vs. the CP & base coding where it does sometimes crash through the body structure.

Thanks O/P for your feedback, especially since you've had actual track experience on various suspension set-ups including your ZCP w/ CS coding and how you managed to improve by 2 seconds off the bat on a stock CS.
If you are comparing stock to stock, for me, it has a lot to do with 666m wheels the ZCP has. 20" (way heavier rims) and stiffer spring rates doesn't make it a super comfortable ride. Not to mention the notifiable stiffer rebound, I found just annoying. non ZCP suspension was floaty on rebound, stock ZCP suspension was stiffer and I found that to be annoying too.

As soon as I switched to FI-Rs the feel in steering was improved a lot. Then of course switching into KW DDC with CS EDC coding changed the feeling of my car significantly. Is it close to CS car? I'm honestly not sure, it might be one of those person to person type things but most of the hardware of the CS can be retrofitted. The only thing you cannot fully replicate is the CS tune BMW does. BMW has a odd ability to tune their cars so uniquely that it's just close to impossible to 100% replicate.
__________________
'18 Grigio Medio/Nutmeg BMW F80 M3 Competition "Stella" // '17 Mahogany Metallic/Black Porsche Macan S "Gisele"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
You're making babies for me!
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2019, 08:22 PM   #54
matty088
Major
231
Rep
1,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Why wouldn’t a cs coded ZCP car handle more sporty/firm/better than a cs? It has the same software but more aggressive hardware.

Then run a bm3 stage 1. And it’s good night.

The negative obviously is warranty. But these cars are starting to age. Warranty is going away anyways.

I do love the hood and lip spoiler though and that blue is exceptional. But I think from a pure performance perspective the ZCP car is the better choice.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 02:48 PM   #55
///M4ster Yoda
Brigadier General
///M4ster Yoda's Avatar
2858
Rep
3,355
Posts

Drives: '16 F82 M4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
This worries me as I'm about to get rid of my Non-ZCP 2016 for a ZCP 2020.

The 2016 feels like a wild animal that I've learned to control and I love that about it.

You guys are kinda making the ZCP and CS seem tame and dare I say boring down low. Having 2nd thoughts.
After (possibly a little embarrassing) having all three (Civic M3, 6MT ZCP and now CS) maybe I can help a little.

My 15 DCT M3 felt like I was on the ragged edge of control when driving hard at all times. I didn't find it fun and ultimately ended up disliking the car quite a bit in the end. MDM sucked sweaty hairy nuts and killed the fun all the time/immediately. Or maybe it kept alive so maybe I should thank it.

My 18 6MT ZCP felt quite a bit slower with a narrower power band. Sport was ok, but it needed to be in Sport+ to feel even close to my 15. Even then it still never built speed like I remembered from my 15. But, I had 2 and a 1/2 years in 500 plus horse GT350 in between them so that probably didn't help. MDM much better still a tad too intrusive.

My M4 CS test drive immediately reminded me of what a beast the 15 was, but with way better suspension/chassis characteristics. Easily the best MDM version of the three with the widest most usable power band IMO.

Not apples to apples I know, but something and no I'm never getting a GTS.
Thanks Minn. Congrats on the new CS. I almost pulled the trigger on one also.

I'm excited to get my 20' ZCP in a few weeks. Worst case scenario is that I have to tune it and take my chances with the crank hub.
__________________
'03 330 '04 325 '08 328 '11 335 '11 335is
'14 335 '16 340 '16 M4 (Retired)
4 ED's 1 PCD
Current Stable: '19 X3 (Wifey) '20 ZCP M4 (Mine)
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-25-2019, 02:50 PM   #56
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Why wouldn’t a cs coded ZCP car handle more sporty/firm/better than a cs? It has the same software but more aggressive hardware.

Then run a bm3 stage 1. And it’s good night.

The negative obviously is warranty. But these cars are starting to age. Warranty is going away anyways.

I do love the hood and lip spoiler though and that blue is exceptional. But I think from a pure performance perspective the ZCP car is the better choice.
Theoretically sure. I'm not sure about your conclusion and most likely it'll never be truly tested or known. Some things don't always mix and match like people think they will.

My warranty isn't going away for 3 years 361 days or 49,800 miles.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 02:51 PM   #57
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Thanks Minn. Congrats on the new CS. I almost pulled the trigger on one also.

I'm excited to get my 20' ZCP in a few weeks. Worst case scenario is that I have to tune it and take my chances with the crank hub.
Thx, congrats on yours as well. There is no perfect car unfortunately. Fortunately all of these are damn amazing cars.
Appreciate 1
      06-25-2019, 03:03 PM   #58
///M4ster Yoda
Brigadier General
///M4ster Yoda's Avatar
2858
Rep
3,355
Posts

Drives: '16 F82 M4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Thanks Minn. Congrats on the new CS. I almost pulled the trigger on one also.

I'm excited to get my 20' ZCP in a few weeks. Worst case scenario is that I have to tune it and take my chances with the crank hub.
Thx, congrats on yours as well. There is no perfect car unfortunately. Fortunately all of these are damn amazing cars.
Agreed. I'm always "searching" for the perfect car for me. Everyones criteria is different. Right now BMW ///Ms are where it's at as they check many of my boxes. Enjoy the new ride. The CS is sweet!
__________________
'03 330 '04 325 '08 328 '11 335 '11 335is
'14 335 '16 340 '16 M4 (Retired)
4 ED's 1 PCD
Current Stable: '19 X3 (Wifey) '20 ZCP M4 (Mine)
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-25-2019, 03:07 PM   #59
minn19
Major General
minn19's Avatar
United_States
5403
Rep
6,086
Posts

Drives: 19 M4 CS, 16 F150, 19 M550
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Minnesota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Agreed. I'm always "searching" for the perfect car for me. Everyones criteria is different. Right now BMW ///Ms are where it's at as they check many of my boxes. Enjoy the new ride. The CS is sweet!
Thanks, you as well! You'll have to let me know how the new DCT ZCP feels compared to your current car. I'm genuinely interested in if it was the 6MT that made it feel slower or if it truly was the engine mapping.
Appreciate 1
      06-25-2019, 03:22 PM   #60
stevehifi
First Lieutenant
149
Rep
347
Posts

Drives: 17 F80 M3 ZCP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Irvine,CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
If you are comparing stock to stock, for me, it has a lot to do with 666m wheels the ZCP has. 20" (way heavier rims) and stiffer spring rates doesn't make it a super comfortable ride. Not to mention the notifiable stiffer rebound, I found just annoying. non ZCP suspension was floaty on rebound, stock ZCP suspension was stiffer and I found that to be annoying too.

As soon as I switched to FI-Rs the feel in steering was improved a lot. Then of course switching into KW DDC with CS EDC coding changed the feeling of my car significantly. Is it close to CS car? I'm honestly not sure, it might be one of those person to person type things but most of the hardware of the CS can be retrofitted. The only thing you cannot fully replicate is the CS tune BMW does. BMW has a odd ability to tune their cars so uniquely that it's just close to impossible to 100% replicate.
Did you compare stock suspension with CS EDC vs KW DDC with CS EDC? what were your impressions?
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 04:00 PM   #61
Arcades
Lup's Kid
Arcades's Avatar
Taiwan
2169
Rep
3,549
Posts

Drives: 18' Grigio Medio F80
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehifi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
If you are comparing stock to stock, for me, it has a lot to do with 666m wheels the ZCP has. 20" (way heavier rims) and stiffer spring rates doesn't make it a super comfortable ride. Not to mention the notifiable stiffer rebound, I found just annoying. non ZCP suspension was floaty on rebound, stock ZCP suspension was stiffer and I found that to be annoying too.

As soon as I switched to FI-Rs the feel in steering was improved a lot. Then of course switching into KW DDC with CS EDC coding changed the feeling of my car significantly. Is it close to CS car? I'm honestly not sure, it might be one of those person to person type things but most of the hardware of the CS can be retrofitted. The only thing you cannot fully replicate is the CS tune BMW does. BMW has a odd ability to tune their cars so uniquely that it's just close to impossible to 100% replicate.
Did you compare stock suspension with CS EDC vs KW DDC with CS EDC? what were your impressions?

I didn't do so because I switched out my stock suspension before I did my coding. But I remember how floaty my non-ZCP 15' M4 was and I found the rebounding just aggravating. Half of the time I felt that the car was going to literally float up and away.

KW DDC w/ CS EDC coding feels good. Comfort is very comfy. Sport feels a like a good in between which is what I tend to use when I get lazy. Sport+ is very stiff, you feel everything. But the most important part is that dampening and rebound is noticeable between all three settings. You literally feel the car change now, unlike stock suspension where the dampening seems to not change but the rebound does.
__________________
'18 Grigio Medio/Nutmeg BMW F80 M3 Competition "Stella" // '17 Mahogany Metallic/Black Porsche Macan S "Gisele"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
You're making babies for me!
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-25-2019, 04:36 PM   #62
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
10054
Rep
16,192
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty088 View Post
Why wouldn’t a cs coded ZCP car handle more sporty/firm/better than a cs? It has the same software but more aggressive hardware.

Then run a bm3 stage 1. And it’s good night.

The negative obviously is warranty. But these cars are starting to age. Warranty is going away anyways.

I do love the hood and lip spoiler though and that blue is exceptional. But I think from a pure performance perspective the ZCP car is the better choice.
The damping needs to be matched to the spring rates for optimal ride/handling results. As has been discussed in this thread, it seems that BMW elected to use the non-CP spring rates on the M3cs, which means a more stiffly sprung M3CP would be under-damped when coded with the M3cs EDC. It would be interesting to try the M4cs EDC coding on an CP M3 (if it is even possible), since the M4cs is specced with the CP spring rates. But even then, the front swaybar would need to be changed to a softer non-CP one for more optimal results.

Note that stiffer does not necessarily imply better performance. In general terms softer suspension tuning translates to increased overall grip while stiffer translates to a sharper handling response.
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates

Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-25-2019 at 04:42 PM..
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-25-2019, 05:03 PM   #63
stevehifi
First Lieutenant
149
Rep
347
Posts

Drives: 17 F80 M3 ZCP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Irvine,CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The damping needs to be matched to the spring rates for optimal ride/handling results. As has been discussed in this thread, it seems that BMW elected to use the non-CP spring rates on the M3cs, which means a more stiffly sprung M3CP would be under-damped when coded with the M3cs EDC. It would be interesting to try the M4cs EDC coding on an CP M3 (if it is even possible), since the M4cs is specced with the CP spring rates. But even then, the front swaybar would need to be changed to a softer non-CP one for more optimal results.

Note that stiffer does not necessarily imply better performance. In general terms softer suspension tuning translates to increased overall grip while stiffer translates to a sharper handling response.
From what I discussed with Alex, the CS coding is generic for both M3 and M4.

The shocks are valved the same (same dyno curves) and for a certain spring rate range (which the ZCP/Base springs fall into).

It's possible that there is a scaling factor applied based on the measurements
taken from the shock acceleration sensor (sensing the up and down motions
of the wheel when hitting bumps) and telling the electronic adjuster at the top of the shock to stiffen/soften the shock.

So if the M4 runs stiffer springs vs the M3, then it may not matter in the end, since the sensor really is the one determining the appropriate shock adjustment based on wheel motion (up/down).
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2019, 07:22 PM   #64
matty088
Major
231
Rep
1,013
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The damping needs to be matched to the spring rates for optimal ride/handling results. As has been discussed in this thread, it seems that BMW elected to use the non-CP spring rates on the M3cs, which means a more stiffly sprung M3CP would be under-damped when coded with the M3cs EDC. It would be interesting to try the M4cs EDC coding on an CP M3 (if it is even possible), since the M4cs is specced with the CP spring rates. But even then, the front swaybar would need to be changed to a softer non-CP one for more optimal results.

Note that stiffer does not necessarily imply better performance. In general terms softer suspension tuning translates to increased overall grip while stiffer translates to a sharper handling response.
Well I actually agree. I think ZCP is best with ZCP coding. I have been whining about it since I made the change. I am hoping bm3 adds this so I can go back and forth and really test it back to back. .
Appreciate 0
      06-26-2019, 03:14 AM   #65
///M4ster Yoda
Brigadier General
///M4ster Yoda's Avatar
2858
Rep
3,355
Posts

Drives: '16 F82 M4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Agreed. I'm always "searching" for the perfect car for me. Everyones criteria is different. Right now BMW ///Ms are where it's at as they check many of my boxes. Enjoy the new ride. The CS is sweet!
Thanks, you as well! You'll have to let me know how the new DCT ZCP feels compared to your current car. I'm genuinely interested in if it was the 6MT that made it feel slower or if it truly was the engine mapping.
Will do. My 1st Performance Center pickup is in a few weeks. It's gonna be something fun and different then the EDs we have done in the past.
__________________
'03 330 '04 325 '08 328 '11 335 '11 335is
'14 335 '16 340 '16 M4 (Retired)
4 ED's 1 PCD
Current Stable: '19 X3 (Wifey) '20 ZCP M4 (Mine)
Appreciate 1
minn195402.50

      06-26-2019, 04:56 AM   #66
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
10054
Rep
16,192
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehifi View Post
From what I discussed with Alex, the CS coding is generic for both M3 and M4.

The shocks are valved the same (same dyno curves) and for a certain spring rate range (which the ZCP/Base springs fall into).

It's possible that there is a scaling factor applied based on the measurements
taken from the shock acceleration sensor (sensing the up and down motions
of the wheel when hitting bumps) and telling the electronic adjuster at the top of the shock to stiffen/soften the shock.

So if the M4 runs stiffer springs vs the M3, then it may not matter in the end, since the sensor really is the one determining the appropriate shock adjustment based on wheel motion (up/down).
I am surprised BMW would use the exact same EDC software for the F80 and F82 chassis. The two cars have different weight distribution and Cg heights. IMO, it’s more than just the accelerometer input, the starting position of the valves would be different.

If BMW really has the same EDC software in the M3cs than in the M4cs, it truly makes the M3cs a half ass effort.
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST