savagegeese F80 M3 review - "One of the best things BMW has done in modern history"

DanMpower · 12-11-2019, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgere

Truest best car of this generation is gulia qv

Chris Harris doesn't seem to think so.

It seems to me like most US journalists want to see someone, ANYONE, dethrone the king (M3) so any new challenger they seem biased against the M3. In the End the M3 will always prevail as being the best car at what it does. It excels in ALL areas, not just 1 or 2... that makes it the best.

icegrill · 12-11-2019, 10:18 PM

F' the car I'm in for a thorough type a review of Patagonia!

clee1982 · 12-11-2019, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvit27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You are correct that "emotional connection" is totally subjective. But if enough people complain about it there has to be truth to it. I don't think I've read a single review/comparison test that didn't mention the lack of steering feedback in the F8X chassis. The car feels so refined...to a fault.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No.401_Speed

There is a familiar refrain in the comments of an Autocar & Motor review of the E36 M3 published way back in 1992 with those posted by Mark in his Savage Geese video.

You be the judge and when reading this writer's impressions, substitute the obvious emotional attachments he had to the E30 M3 with those expressed by Mark for his E92 in comparison with the F80. The pattern is repeated and the points virtually identical. Then place these into the context of your personal experiences and emotional responses to the F80/F82.

"The self-conscious '90s call for purity of line to replace the bulging be-winged machismo that so distinguished the M3 in the carefree '80s.

Take another look at that gear lever. M3s used to put first, not fifth, out on its own, in classic racing style. No more. It's a small point, especially as BMW says a conventional layout is the more popular, but it is significant.

Anyone who has driven the latest 3 Series will feel at home as immediately as any old M3 driver will feel alienated. I struggled to see the difference between this and the 325i Coupe that had been my transport for the previous week. Where was the thrill, that raw seam of inspiration that, in M3s of yore, captured your heart and mind as soon as you saw the car and didn't let go until you were safely home again?

It may have six cylinders, but the heart and soul of the M3 lives and breathes in this engine as much as ever before....but, the same cannot be said for the chassis and steering. The old M3's precision, it's essence of all that is good in a racing car's chassis distilled into a civilized road machine, is gone.

The M3 has missed the point. It is not the first car to mistake pace for pleasure and it will surely not be the last, but if you expect it to encapsulate the spirit of the true road racer as it's forerunner did so well, you are likely to be disappointed. I know I was."

I've seen this pattern throughout my lifetime. Some folks just can't let go of the past and acknowledge that modern applications of tech are better, while being a bit more sterile, than previous designs. We can expect that similar comments have been made as each new generation of M3 hit the show room floor.

I take my driving cues from my eyes and the seat of my pants and don't quite understand the mysticism surrounding steering wheel feedback. OK, I'm an amateur, I don't race cars for a living, so maybe I've never gained that insight. But if each generation of M3 has "lost" something of it's predecessor, then why is the F80/F82 so vastly superior to the original E30 M3. I once watched a documentary of an old M2000 fighter pilot bemoaning the lack of "feel" from his new F16 Falcon, so it's a common refrain.

Frankly, this is precisely the reason that I opted to purchase a modern, state of the art sports coupe versus spending bags of money rescuing a 1960-1970's muscle car. I prefer modern tech to old. In that the Savage Geese review devoted so much time praising the technical precision of the car and then had to revert to criticizing the car on the basis of the psychology of the experience and digging very deep to compare it to a Hellcat, well, that just spoke to me as having too few things to complain about.

It's a great car boys, it's unique, beautifully styled and expertly engineered and yes, one day you too will be able to draw comparisons to the F80/F82 when judging the G80's lack of feedback, sterile driving experience and loss of driver focus at BMW. I say, bring it on (just ditch that ugly grill!!)

Speaking from a racing/motorsport background, I personally don't get the heavy emphasis on hydraulic steering "feel". It's a bit more comprehensive to understand what a chassis is doing and if you rely solely on the steering wheel to feel bumps you're missing A LOT of data. But nowadays the EPS ratios are so much more intuitive with your hand movements it's a worthwhile tradeoff IMO

Especially in this context while comparing to the the E30/E36/E46 people forget the steering systems in those cars were so slow & isolated that swapping racks with faster ratios is a popular mod. Many of us have deleted rubber steering giubos and bushings to gain PRECISION back. Combined with the softer chassis and older tire/damper technology of yore, you're glorifying cars that have a ton of deflection compared to the new stuff that is so much stiffer and more responsive.

As always it comes down to peoples' driving ability. People like the older cars because the limit is lower and more in line with what they can feel. The more capable these new cars become, the more accuracy they can deliver at a much higher limit. But most drivers' don't have enough hertz in the seat of their pants to FEEL what the car can communicate. And this is the plight that modern supercars have - they have to be pushed to a much higher limit than can be done on public roads to appreciate. The refinement engineered into them to filter out the unnecessary 'noise' at slower speeds is what disengages those who can't see the actual improvements in how a car loads up the suspension, reacts to inputs, distributes the weight, manages the power, etc etc.

Right, but that's kind a problem, no way we can push modern car at 9 /10th on public road without going to jail or endanger someone... I suppose that's the appeal of bike, you get a lot more sense even at low speed

BeachieM3 · 12-11-2019, 10:43 PM

My F80 was very tail happy on Super Sports, but significantly stickier on 4S's. Made a huge difference, but now that it's settled down and hooking up easily, I'm wanting some BootMod3 magic to push it further. I have CCB's also and feel that the ability to brake easily from whatever speed adds quite a bit to the drama and fun factor. Don't know what settings they were using , but I keep it in Sport Plus everything but steering all the time in the dry. I also start with exhaust valve open routine as well so I'm getting plenty of drama around here.

Fugly M3 · 12-11-2019, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Germanauto

At least they made the point of stating this problem isn't unique to BMW. Even modern Porsches are subjectively less "fun" than they used to be.

I can't help but wonder...what if this is all a grand plot by the carmakers...numb the models up to drive us into the more visceral, more sporty, more extreme CS, AMG S, RS, GTS/2/3 +!* whatever...keep 'em upgrading in search of the, "feel."

My 2002 basic 325Ci 5MT coupe went and cornered nothing like my 2018 F82...but it felt solid, tight and super-engaging. I love my F82, but I do seem to keep searching for that "BMW."

georgere · 12-12-2019, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSXiMUS

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgere

Truest best car of this generation is gulia qv

Chris Harris doesn't seem to think so.

It seems to me like most US journalists want to see someone, ANYONE, dethrone the king (M3) so any new challenger they seem biased against the M3. In the End the M3 will always prevail as being the best car at what it does. It excels in ALL areas, not just 1 or 2... that makes it the best.

Lookup his subsequent reviews of f80 or other similar cars where he mentions shortcomings of f80. additionally F80 has lost many reviews by most reviewers to Chevy, Alfa etc.
drive Alfa and you probably will see stock for stuck it is more fun car.
Ps I loved my f80 for speed, DCT, front grip, most visual design elements, how traction/diff are setup. Hated steering feel, sound, turboed engine, complete lack of comfort for daily use (noticeable after awhile). After 4 years I started hating the car. I was about to leave the brand after so many years with BMW but then I met her - 2020 m550

Humdizzle · 12-12-2019, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F82PRETEND

I can't help but wonder...what if this is all a grand plot by the carmakers...numb the models up to drive us into the more visceral, more sporty, more extreme CS, AMG S, RS, GTS/2/3 +!* whatever...keep 'em upgrading in search of the, "feel."

My 2002 basic 325Ci 5MT coupe went and cornered nothing like my 2018 F82...but it felt solid, tight and super-engaging. I love my F82, but I do seem to keep searching for that "BMW."

you wont find a 'bmw' from bmw anymore. But there are plenty of cheaper cars that are very involving to drive in my opinion. Toyota 86 / Mazda Miata / Veloster N.

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgere

Lookup his subsequent reviews of f80 or other similar cars where he mentions shortcomings of f80. additionally F80 has lost many reviews by most reviewers to Chevy, Alfa etc.
drive Alfa and you probably will see stock for stuck it is more fun car.
Ps I loved my f80 for speed, DCT, front grip, most visual design elements, how traction/diff are setup. Hated steering feel, sound, turboed engine, complete lack of comfort for daily use (noticeable after awhile). After 4 years I started hating the car. I was about to leave the brand after so many years with BMW but then I met her - 2020 m550

thats true. The Alfa is probably the more fun car. But there are other things that drive a purchase besides fun. Like reliability / dealer network. That car and driver long term test pretty much killed it. 14 month test and it spent 3 of those months in a shop for various issues.

G35POPPEDMYCHERRY · 12-12-2019, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

you wont find a 'bmw' from bmw anymore. But there are plenty of cheaper cars that are very involving to drive in my opinion. Toyota 86 / Mazda Miata / Veloster N.

thats true. The Alfa is probably the more fun car. But there are other things that drive a purchase besides fun. Like reliability / dealer network. That car and driver long term test pretty much killed it. 14 month test and it spent 3 of those months in a shop for various issues.

my buddies miata always seems to put more of a smile on my face than the f80. shit is like a go kart on the back roads

ntg44 · 12-12-2019, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

my buddies miata always seems to put more of a smile on my face than the f80. shit is like a go kart on the back roads

Hasn't the answer always been Miata?

That car is begging for another speed version. Doesn't even need a turbo, just give it something like the F20C from the S2000

Fuller · 12-12-2019, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

you wont find a 'bmw' from bmw anymore. But there are plenty of cheaper cars that are very involving to drive in my opinion. Toyota 86 / Mazda Miata / Veloster N.

thats true. The Alfa is probably the more fun car. But there are other things that drive a purchase besides fun. Like reliability / dealer network. That car and driver long term test pretty much killed it. 14 month test and it spent 3 of those months in a shop for various issues.

my buddies miata always seems to put more of a smile on my face than the f80. shit is like a go kart on the back roads

The Miata is more fun because it's built solely for fun. The Miata is a focused sports car that weighs around 1000 lbs less than the m3 (or somewhere thereabout). You can't carry more than one passenger in a Miata though....or pick up groceries, or whatever. A car like an m3 is good for someone who wants a Swiss Army knife-like car. It's a car that can perform the daily grind and perform on a track. More importantly, it's car that allows one to have a smile on occasion during the daily grind. You can experience it everyday, not just on sunny weekends (depending on how bad your daily commute is).

minn19 · 12-12-2019, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuller

The Miata is more fun because it's built solely for fun. The Miata is a focused sports car that weighs around 1000 lbs less than the m3 (or somewhere thereabout). You can't carry more than one passenger in a Miata though....or pick up groceries, or whatever. A car like an m3 is good for someone who wants a Swiss Army knife-like car. It's a car that can perform the daily grind and perform on a track. More importantly, it's car that allows one to have a smile on occasion during the daily grind. You can experience it everyday, not just on sunny weekends (depending on how bad your daily commute is).

Which, is funny because most people (90%?) only use them as a fast DD and they never even sniff a track.

The Outrage · 12-12-2019, 07:56 AM

SavageGeese top five sports cars of all time:

1996 Honda Civic EX (mediocre)
1999 Honda S2000 (revs too high, like a motorcycle, too much fluff)
2004 Honda S2000 (revs too low, like a tractor, too much fluff)
2000 Ariel Atom (lacking in visceral excitement, too much fluff)
2012 Hyundai Veloster (too many doors, too much fluff)

Richbot · 12-12-2019, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvit27

Speaking from a racing/motorsport background, I personally don't get the heavy emphasis on hydraulic steering "feel". It's a bit more comprehensive to understand what a chassis is doing and if you rely solely on the steering wheel to feel bumps you're missing A LOT of data. But nowadays the EPS ratios are so much more intuitive with your hand movements it's a worthwhile tradeoff IMO

Especially in this context while comparing to the the E30/E36/E46 people forget the steering systems in those cars were so slow & isolated that swapping racks with faster ratios is a popular mod. Many of us have deleted rubber steering giubos and bushings to gain PRECISION back. Combined with the softer chassis and older tire/damper technology of yore, you're glorifying cars that have a ton of deflection compared to the new stuff that is so much stiffer and more responsive.

As always it comes down to peoples' driving ability. People like the older cars because the limit is lower and more in line with what they can feel. The more capable these new cars become, the more accuracy they can deliver at a much higher limit. But most drivers' don't have enough hertz in the seat of their pants to FEEL what the car can communicate. And this is the plight that modern supercars have - they have to be pushed to a much higher limit than can be done on public roads to appreciate. The refinement engineered into them to filter out the unnecessary 'noise' at slower speeds is what disengages those who can't see the actual improvements in how a car loads up the suspension, reacts to inputs, distributes the weight, manages the power, etc etc.

yuuuuup

The thing the F80 bugs me about is the whole frontend is a bit dead and artificial feeling, at least the one I drove on 18's/PSS was. It felt very much like there was an extra step somewhere in there sorting out how much to tell me about what the front tires are doing. I think that feeling may be the auto-damping/hysteresis program in the electric motor - that judder and grind you get through the wheel also comes through the pedals and the chassis - the steering was accurate but I couldn't get a read on what my next input would do, if that makes sense. It's a car dominated by what you can do with the tail and that's not a bad thing - the front is pretty damn well stuck from the factory which is impressive considering all the understeering messes BMW has sold us before - the steering isn't great but so much about it is that the tradeoffs are worth it. And the front end really is NAILED down compared to the old cars.

Anyway, once you put a proper wide front tire on the front of an FR car, feel starts to give way to how hard you can chuck it in without the back end coming around on you so your attention is all back in the back and the new car wrist-flick slide correction is such a huge improvement from the 90's and especially, the godawful E30 or even worse, unassisted Miata steering - lots of feel, needs a steering wheel spinner. Great fun on a road, liability on track

I've driven the Giulia, the C-class, but haven't tried the RCF - I get the feeling from other lexiii the RCF steering might be the one I like the most. Giulia's steering was good and sharp, but it was on cup tires soooo of course it was. F80's is right in there somewhere. It's not bad. It's just not a Porsche which makes sense, the frontend has to deal with a lot more

And, mommas, don't let your babies grow up to put too much rear tire on their cars, let them have driftos and donuts and such

M3GymNut · 12-12-2019, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgere

Truest best car of this generation is gulia qv

From a pure driving perspective I'd have to respectfully agree. The QV is a thrill to drive and hopefully BMW takes notice because Alfa Romeo is an infotainment and some refinements here and there from being the sports sedan to get. If you haven't driven one drive one, it's that good.

M3GymNut · 12-12-2019, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

thats true. The Alfa is probably the more fun car. But there are other things that drive a purchase besides fun. Like reliability / dealer network. That car and driver long term test pretty much killed it. 14 month test and it spent 3 of those months in a shop for various issues.

That car and driver car was literally one of the first models. Since then AR has done the necessary improvements to the vehicle. A QV now is just as reliable as an M3. Can't knock it until you try it and/or do the necessary research to see that they're take in rate is about the same as MERC or BMW. One thing I will say and agree with you is that dealer network is extremely lacking on some of them not all. The dealerships where AR is with Masserati are the ones to go to.

Richbot · 12-12-2019, 10:24 AM

The giulia is designed for some other species to operate, maybe one without elbows. Your mileage may vary, everyone's arms and legs are different, but I'm pretty average and I couldn't find a decent driving position that didn't also put some extremity of my body at some weird angle or in contact with something it shouldn't be contacting. EVen if they fixed all of the dealer network and reliability issues (and they're not gone, not entirely anyway, if my neighbor's '19 is a guide) I don't think I'd want to live with it every day

Pretty though. I think the S55 sounds better *ducks*

JoeFromPA · 12-12-2019, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minn19

Scales and weights are all over the place. My MT ZCP M3 with CF roof just extended leather and exec was 36XX. My base M4 CS (lightest version) came in at 3630. Minus 60 pounds for the DCT penalty still puts it in high 35XX. I really don’t see how a non CS M3 gets into the 34XX. M2s are barely that.

Edit: Both were on the same scales done at a BMW dealership by the shop foreman who is a long time BMW track rat/fan. Both also had between half a and 3/4 of a tank of gas IIRC.

Still reading through but just wanted to say I weighed my m3 when it was only a few thousand miles old at a nearby scrap yard with a calibrated scale. They exchange money based upon that scale, so I'd say it's accurate within 10 pounds to be safe.

Mine was 3,450 with maybe 3 gallons in the tank. I have a stripper model with the only option being adaptive suspension, and it's an m3 and not an m4.

Technically, a stripper m4 with a manual transmission and no adaptive suspension SHOULD have been able to be weighed below 3400 pounds with 2-3 gallons in the tank.

Take it for what it's worth.

minn19 · 12-12-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Still reading through but just wanted to say I weighed my m3 when it was only a few thousand miles old at a nearby scrap yard with a calibrated scale. They exchange money based upon that scale, so I'd say it's accurate within 10 pounds to be safe.

Mine was 3,450 with maybe 3 gallons in the tank. I have a stripper model with the only option being adaptive suspension, and it's an m3 and not an m4.

Technically, a stripper m4 with a manual transmission and no adaptive suspension SHOULD have been able to be weighed below 3400 pounds with 2-3 gallons in the tank.

Take it for what it's worth.

I wonder how much lighter the static suspension is and non leather seats are than. I have a very hard time seeing how my base (no options/steel brakes) M4 CS came in at 3630 with between 1/2 and 3/4 of a tank of gas while yours is that. My 6MT ZCP was 3680 with extended leather, MPE and exec package and again roughly 1/2 to 3/4s a tank of gas. I really don't see how it could be that far off from your car.

The base CSs should be the lightest M3s subtracting DCT weight of course. But, this isn't the case and not even close from what I can tell.

JamesGames · 12-12-2019, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minn19

I wonder how much lighter the static suspension is and non leather seats are than. I have a very hard time seeing how my base (no options/steel brakes) M4 CS came in at 3630 with between 1/2 and 3/4 of a tank of gas while yours is that. My 6MT ZCP was 3680 with extended leather, MPE and exec package and again roughly 1/2 to 3/4s a tank of gas. I really don't see how it could be that far off from your car.

The base CSs should be the lightest M3s subtracting DCT weight of course. But, this isn't the case and not even close from what I can tell.

Check this thread for the weight gain across the model years for what it's worth
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1365204
The early model year cars seemed to weigh the least, and gradually the weight increased a tad bit.

minn19 · 12-12-2019, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesGames

Check this thread for the weight gain across the model years for what it's worth
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1365204
The early model year cars seemed to weigh the least, and gradually the weight increased a tad bit.

I've seen that, but these numbers are well over a hundred pounds different. That is what I'm trying to figure out as to how. I don't have a horse in this race, but I am curious as to why the very large discrepancies.

Humdizzle · 12-12-2019, 02:58 PM

im not sure why the discrepancies exist either. Its pretty well known the sunroof and DCT add about 100 pounds combined weight. but after that its a alot of smaller things

other things would be the carbon driveshaft which was recalled and changed with steel on the later model cars.

ppf particulate filter for emissions

wheel and tire combos for various packages. the 19" 437m and the 20" 763m CS wheel weights are about the same. But the 437 wheel has less tire i'd imagine.

rear sunshade and its motor

minn19 · 12-12-2019, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

im not sure why the discrepancies exist either. Its pretty well known the sunroof and DCT add about 100 pounds combined weight. but after that its a alot of smaller things

other things would be the carbon driveshaft which was recalled and changed with steel on the later model cars.

ppf particulate filter for emissions

wheel and tire combos for various packages. the 19" 437m and the 20" 763m CS wheel weights are about the same. But the 437 wheel has less tire i'd imagine.

rear sunshade and its motor

Neither my M4 CS nor my MT ZCP had the rear sunshade, sunroof and both were on 763s when weighed. My ZCP also still had the CF no PPF.

The heinous looking 666 wheels were/are boat anchors so that I get for some of the incremental weights. PPF/no CF drive shaft makes sense as well.

DCT I've heard between 60-80 lbs alone.

12-11-2019, 10:18 PM	#90
icegrill Lieutenant Colonel 2078 Rep 1,780 Posts Drives: 2015 M3 Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Oregon iTrader: (3)	F' the car I'm in for a thorough type a review of Patagonia!
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12-11-2019, 10:43 PM	#92
BeachieM3 Private 81 Rep 65 Posts Drives: 2015 Silverstone M3/CCB Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Lexington, SC iTrader: (0)	My F80 was very tail happy on Super Sports, but significantly stickier on 4S's. Made a huge difference, but now that it's settled down and hooking up easily, I'm wanting some BootMod3 magic to push it further. I have CCB's also and feel that the ability to brake easily from whatever speed adds quite a bit to the drama and fun factor. Don't know what settings they were using , but I keep it in Sport Plus everything but steering all the time in the dry. I also start with exhaust valve open routine as well so I'm getting plenty of drama around here. Attached Images
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12-12-2019, 07:56 AM	#100
The Outrage Private 65 Rep 70 Posts Drives: 2020 M340i xDrive Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Pennsylvania iTrader: (0)	SavageGeese top five sports cars of all time: 1996 Honda Civic EX (mediocre) 1999 Honda S2000 (revs too high, like a motorcycle, too much fluff) 2004 Honda S2000 (revs too low, like a tractor, too much fluff) 2000 Ariel Atom (lacking in visceral excitement, too much fluff) 2012 Hyundai Veloster (too many doors, too much fluff)
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12-12-2019, 10:24 AM	#104
Richbot Major General 2759 Rep 5,484 Posts Drives: Jerez Black E90 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: STL iTrader: (5)	The giulia is designed for some other species to operate, maybe one without elbows. Your mileage may vary, everyone's arms and legs are different, but I'm pretty average and I couldn't find a decent driving position that didn't also put some extremity of my body at some weird angle or in contact with something it shouldn't be contacting. EVen if they fixed all of the dealer network and reliability issues (and they're not gone, not entirely anyway, if my neighbor's '19 is a guide) I don't think I'd want to live with it every day Pretty though. I think the S55 sounds better ducks __________________
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12-12-2019, 02:58 PM	#109
Humdizzle Brigadier General 6042 Rep 3,616 Posts Drives: GT3 + M2c Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Missouri iTrader: (0)	im not sure why the discrepancies exist either. Its pretty well known the sunroof and DCT add about 100 pounds combined weight. but after that its a alot of smaller things other things would be the carbon driveshaft which was recalled and changed with steel on the later model cars. ppf particulate filter for emissions wheel and tire combos for various packages. the 19" 437m and the 20" 763m CS wheel weights are about the same. But the 437 wheel has less tire i'd imagine. rear sunshade and its motor __________________ 2018 Porsche GT3 6MT 2021 M2C DCT Previous: Ferrari 458 \| R35 GTR \| F80 M3 \| E46 M3 \| E36 M3 \| Scion FRS
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