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      06-09-2013, 11:14 AM   #23
solstice
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Isn't there a sound engineer or just a geek here that could run the ring clips through some SW which can spit out an analysis that could determine if it's an I6 or V6? You would think the exhaust note would give that away at some level.
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      06-09-2013, 12:27 PM   #24
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I think, this video F80 M3 has definitely inline engine, V-layot not sound so aggressive and raspy.

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      06-09-2013, 12:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
These rumors are from 3 different sources ... AutoBild is one of them.

The technical points are nearly the same, but one source says neutral 6-Cylinder (AutoBild) ... one clearly V6 (most probably an M-GmbH insider - posted also pics of the F80 brake calibers) ... and the third R6, but with the same facts incl. the exact ccm number - what seems not possible(!?)




According to my informations it could be possible, that an V6 and an I6 were developed side by side ... and the I6 was later used for fake leaks to hide the choosen V6 ... has no one wonder about how such perfekt pics could be leaked?

Greets Uli_HH

I would not bet on what that insider says I don't know him as well as you know him, but he is not an insider himself, but knows some insider. I've been saying V6 since the very beginning, not really knowing which V6 if there were more of them, he his version was changing every week. I thought his next car would be the C55 AMG with 4.0l V8. The pics he posted were often fake. That supposed leaked M4 was nothing else than the 4 Series Concept, the M3 F80 underbody was nothing else than a 328i F30 and the supposed M3 F80 brake calipers are nothing else than some custom made AP Racing. BMW M3/M4 will not get AP Racing brakes, as the M3 GT4 Motorsport, but Brembo brakes. I am not aware that the brake calipers will get "M3" badgeinstead of the now usual "M" badge.

I would not take his claims for granted. And the reason I yet bet on V6 is not because of his "insider information".

Anyway there is no point bringing up the old news nobody believes in. The M3 is just a month away from reaveal, so no big deal discussing anything. We'll soon know what its about.

PS: Funny nobody yet posted pics of CF chassiss parts used in M3.
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      06-09-2013, 02:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
I think, this video F80 M3 has definitely inline engine, V-layot not sound so aggressive and raspy.

Nothing personal but I don't trust anyones ear to determine that, especially on an FI engine. There are some pretty aggressive and raspy V engines out there. Ever visited an F1 race...

I do suspect though that there are unique characteristics in the pulses that would enable a sientific sound analysis to determine if it's an inline or v engine with 100% accuracy.

Is the official reveal only a month away? I thought it was targeted for Geneva next year with production start late spring?
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      06-09-2013, 03:10 PM   #27
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Good (possibly...) information Uli. It is not implausible that two choices were developed in parallel, although given how much simulation is used to develop modern engines, it shouldn't really be required to develop two alternates in parallel. At this weight and power it would even outperform the recent updated simulations I made, it would be brutally fast.

There are very good arguments either way for I6 or V6, basically heritage vs. S85 compared to S65. Cost would very likely favor the I6 and for that reason alone it is still more likely in my opinion. For a semi-random selection with an iconic FI motor, the Porsche 911 Turbo, it provides the same specific torque and power output as the M4 would at 450 hp, 400 ft lb with only 3.0 liters. Thus 3.3 liters is not really required for the car.
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      06-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Is the official reveal only a month away? I thought it was targeted for Geneva next year with production start late spring?
Yes M4. M3 will be at the IAA.
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      06-09-2013, 03:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB
I am not an engineer and I am by no means an authority on engines, but the image of the next generation M3/M4 engine looks similar to me in comparison to the f30 N55 engine. It looks like the oil filter module is in the same place. The air intake box on the drivers side of the engine bay looks very similar and there appears to be another air intake box added on the passenger side of the engine bay. If I would have to guess, this would make me feel that this is most likely an inline engine and a derivative of the N55 as opposed to a V6. Any thoughts?
I AM an engineer, and there is no way in hell that engine is a V6. WTF is wrong with people who continue to perpetuate the V6 rumor mill? In what possible scenario does it make sense for this ca to be. v6 over an I6?
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      06-09-2013, 03:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I AM an engineer, and there is no way in hell that engine is a V6. WTF is wrong with people who continue to perpetuate the V6 rumor mill? In what possible scenario does it make sense for this ca to be. v6 over an I6?
I think it's going to be an I6 but it's not such a stretch to imagine an S63tu with one V removed. It shouldn't be that much extra $$$ compared to an I6 and it would keep the M-divisions engines more homogenous and the "sharing" within M at a higher level. They would also avoid any sh*t about the M3 just being an N55 with a tune. Instead it's an mutilated N63 with a tune
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      06-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Yes M4. M3 will be at the IAA.
Do you have any more specifics on the M4 being revealed? This is to be an official reveal made available to the general public during the month of July? If that is the case it would be great news. I never expected it to be so soon.
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      06-09-2013, 06:05 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think it's going to be an I6 but it's not such a stretch to imagine an S63tu with one V removed. It shouldn't be that much extra $$$ compared to an I6 and it would keep the M-divisions engines more homogenous and the "sharing" within M at a higher level. They would also avoid any sh*t about the M3 just being an N55 with a tune. Instead it's an mutilated N63 with a tune
Not strictly true, a V6 is not a naturally balanced engine, needing much work in the form of counterbalance shafts etc, to make it smooth. V12-V10-V8 are all easy, V8 to V6 is not easy, mainly due to the counterbalances and the bank angle being different. Most efficient V6 angle is 60deg. S63Tu is 90deg. When you consider the magnitude of the changes required, you may as well build an new engine from scratch.

The only supporting factor for V6 being a reality, is that BMW have worked extensively on a new range of 3 cylinder engines. Not inconceivable to believe they could join two together to make a V engine. But would they really go through all that trouble to make a similar displacement 6 cylinder engine to one they already have? After all, the only possible advantage of a V would be the shorter engine, and it's rearward CG making balancing the car easier.

Regarding the videos and sound profile, to be honest it could well sound like a V6, it does have a warble tone to it consistent with a V6 engine.....or then again it could be the different timing of the twin turbo's exhaust plumbing on a straight 6
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      06-09-2013, 07:58 PM   #33
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While a 90 degree V6 isn't optimal for balance it's not uncommon today, both he Panny V6 and Audi 3.0T V6 are both 90 degrees and pretty nice engines. An advantages is that they are lower in height for a lower hood line etc. I wouldn't count that as a disqualifier.
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      06-09-2013, 09:57 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
...V8 to V6 is not easy, mainly due to the counterbalances and the bank angle being different. Most efficient V6 angle is 60deg. S63Tu is 90deg. When you consider the magnitude of the changes required, you may as well build an new engine from scratch.
Mostly not true. So much can be reused beginging from basic 3D design of major and minor components and including testing results as well. Sure, balancing will add some extra balance shafts but again, mostly incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
The only supporting factor for V6 being a reality, is that BMW have worked extensively on a new range of 3 cylinder engines. Not inconceivable to believe they could join two together to make a V engine. But would they really go through all that trouble to make a similar displacement 6 cylinder engine to one they already have? After all, the only possible advantage of a V would be the shorter engine, and it's rearward CG making balancing the car easier.
Well, and their adaptation of the S85 to the S65 as I mentioned earlier...

It's tough to know their exact cost structure based on cylinder configuration but again, this probably comes down to cost above all else. And at the same volume the I6 is likely to cost less mostly due to heads/valves and related part count.

Last but not least we don't have to worry about the car achieving 50-50 weight balance as closer to 40-60 is much more ideal from a true physics/engineering perspective. Of course BMW won't achieve anything like this and will continue their marketing drivel about 50-50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Regarding the videos and sound profile, to be honest it could well sound like a V6, it does have a warble tone to it consistent with a V6 engine.....or then again it could be the different timing of the twin turbo's exhaust plumbing on a straight 6
As I've said time and time again, I'd place money that no one here on this forum can positively identify I6 vs. V6 based on that difference alone. Split pin V6's fire every 120° as do I6's making identification based on exhaust acoustics alone very difficult (perhaps nearly impossible).
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      06-10-2013, 10:17 AM   #35
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Interresting thread...

A trunkated S6344Tu would definitely make the F8X M3/M4 engine unique and special, which I like. A turbo V6 in an M car, I will need to get used to this thought though.

A lot of speculation here but cetainly not impossible. These "facts" are not new rumors, but no longer in line with the latest trends. ///M did say they would surprise us with this car though...
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      06-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
While a 90 degree V6 isn't optimal for balance it's not uncommon today, both he Panny V6 and Audi 3.0T V6 are both 90 degrees and pretty nice engines. An advantages is that they are lower in height for a lower hood line etc. I wouldn't count that as a disqualifier.
A 90degree V6 is and always has been a compromised design. They are only born out of a bigger brother V8. A cheap small displacement option. I can't see BMW a ,manufacturer that stands proudly behind their engine heritage to make a compromised engine, S63TU or not.

Besides that, I doubt a 90 V6 would fit in the F30 engine bay.
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      06-10-2013, 01:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Mostly not true. So much can be reused beginging from basic 3D design of major and minor components and including testing results as well. Sure, balancing will add some extra balance shafts but again, mostly incorrect.
As mentioned above, a 90degree is a compromised design, OK for downsizing (cheapening) a Pan, not OK for a flagship icon.

So if we are talking 60degree V6, then all I said is true, would cost a magnitude more than adopting the I6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Well, and their adaptation of the S85 to the S65 as I mentioned earlier...
Sorry, but s85 to s65 is worlds apart as a comparison to s63 to v6.



Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Last but not least we don't have to worry about the car achieving 50-50 weight balance as closer to 40-60 is much more ideal from a true physics/engineering perspective. Of course BMW won't achieve anything like this and will continue their marketing drivel about 50-50.
Interesting, please tell us more on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
As I've said time and time again, I'd place money that no one here on this forum can positively identify I6 vs. V6 based on that difference alone. Split pin V6's fire every 120° as do I6's making identification based on exhaust acoustics alone very difficult (perhaps nearly impossible).
Depends on many factors, so would agree with this.
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      06-10-2013, 03:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
A 90degree V6 is and always has been a compromised design. They are only born out of a bigger brother V8. A cheap small displacement option. I can't see BMW a ,manufacturer that stands proudly behind their engine heritage to make a compromised engine, S63TU or not.

Besides that, I doubt a 90 V6 would fit in the F30 engine bay.
Wrong. Regardless of the M3, 90° V6 is build for a certain purpose. With counter-rotating balance shafts a 90° V6 is almost as smooth as an I6. A 90° V6 has many advantages when turbocharged. You'll see that in 2014 in F1. The Honda-McLaren F1 engine is a 1.6l 90° V6.
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      06-10-2013, 04:03 PM   #39
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The source cited for this info has admitted that it was a joke all along.
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