I've made a terrible mistake - test drove a 2018 Cayman S PDK

[CachacoF80]

Do yourself a favor and drive a Lotus if you want to change your mind again and forget the Porsche. Nothing (except for super cars) beats the steering, connection with the driver and light weight approach. You can get a good Elise for 35-40k, keep the F80 and you don't have to chop off the legs of your kids! The Porsche feels heavy and sluggish after driving a Lotus. But it involves commitment and you'll need to sacrifice comfort.

[hellrotm]

I don’t get how people get past the Subaru sound. Much rather have a clean cpo 981 GTS than any 718. My friend is a salesman at a Porsche dealer, they are not selling eventhough they advertise some of their inventory with close to 10% off. There are even brand new 2017’s leftover.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I don’t get how people get past the Subaru sound. Much rather have a clean cpo 981 GTS than any 718. My friend is a salesman at a Porsche dealer, they are not selling eventhough they advertise some of their inventory with close to 10% off. There are even brand new 2017’s leftover.

911s sound just fine and are selling well. My dealership could not keep new 17 or new 18s in stock. I tried to grab a slot the other day to build one thee way I wanted and their allocations are were gone . . . This is a Sonic dealership that has multiple Porsche stores throughout the country and huge allocations.

The 992 is about to hit the market now so yeah . . . a lot of people in the know and who drive and purchase Porsches are sitting on the sidelines waiting.

Porsche 911s are a bit different market than the BMW market. Cars do end up on lots speced they way people don't want and they sit. 911 buyers are a bit more discriminating and a lot of 911s sit that were speced by dealership or delivered by PCNA with too many options and too high of a price tag for a base or base S model. You get to the point where you might as well move up to a GTS or 4S. I also think the new turbos are getting priced out of their market . . . alas I just purchased one, but you can get Italians in this price range.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

Yeah - but how tall were they ?

There's like no room in the back of a 911.

My now 21 year old is 5'9" and was about that height all the way through high school. My now 22 year old is about 5'5".

It is what you get used to. If you are a regular car guy or an SUV driver, a 911 back seat will look small to you. I am sports car guy and actually view the back seat in a 911 as roomy, especially for a real sports car.

The back seat of a modern 911 is more than sufficient room for kids and I have adults in the back of mine as well, not often . . ., but it happens and it is doable.

[Racer20]

I drove a base 911 careers with 20" wheels. The tire noise and boom from the engine compartment was so bad that I couldn't enjoy driving the car. The damping was also very rear-bias and in uneven pavement the car was quite abrupt. The caymans I've driven have been much better balanced.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I drove a base 911 careers with 20" wheels. The tire noise and boom from the engine compartment was so bad that I couldn't enjoy driving the car. The damping was also very rear-bias and in uneven pavement the car was quite abrupt. The caymans I've driven have been much better balanced.

Interesting, the one area that a modern 911 really excels well above and beyond anything BMW has every produced, including the GTS, is suspension and damping. Porsche has is dialed and dialed correctly correctly with the 911. They are smooth and balanced on the street and docile, communicate well, telegraph and predictably rotate. These are the easiest cars to throttle steer in the world if you know what you are doing. BMWs are kind of mess despite their skid pad or traction umbers.

BMW chassis, suspension and damping are compromised feeling, twitchy and lack feed back. Lol, on the noise. It’s a sports car and has big tires. You would hate my Italians, but probably love my DB11.

Boom from engine compartment in a base 911 is a first though. Then again, I may be half deaf from 20 + years racing and driving cars that are actually old on the street.

[Darth One]

It's funny because the Cayman has the engine even closer to the back of your head, but you didn't mention it bothering you.

I agree that 911's make a good amount of noise, but totally disagree with the characterization of that noise being "bad" Porsche flat sixes make the best sounds. Unless you were driving a 991.2 , lolz

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Interesting, the one area that a modern 911 really excels well above and beyond anything BMW has every produced, including the GTS, is suspension and damping. Porsche has is dialed and dialed correctly correctly with the 911. They are smooth and balanced on the street and docile, communicate well, telegraph and predictably rotate. These are the easiest cars to throttle steer in the world if you know what you are doing. BMWs are kind of mess despite their skid pad or traction numbers.

Boom from engine compartment in a base 911 is a first though. Then again, I may be half deaf from 20 + years racing and driving cars that are actually old on the street.

The 911 I drove has very well tuned damping, and is a great sports car. Depending on the roads you drive on, the rear heavy balance of the car may result in a very uncomfortable ride. As for the tire noise, my wife and I took a 300mile road trip in the 911, something that we do regularly in my M3. Neither of us enjoyed the experience due to the noise and abruptness of the ride. (It does handle some types of bad roads well, but others, not so much). For sports car stuff, like weekend blasts in the canyons or track days, or even commuting on good roads, it's fantastic. It's not the right car for all roads and all people though.

The M3 also has issues with damping and ride quality, but they are very different issues and manifest on very different roads. I'd also say that with proper tire pressure, nominal factory alignment, and the 2016 software update, the M3 isn't "a mess" at all and handled quite well. Well enough that I'm typically one of the faster non-R compound shod cars on the track at the local Porsche club events (advanced-solo group).

My opinion is shared among many people who own and drive 911's and BMW's in the vehicle dynamics field in the Detroit area (I.e., experts in this type of thing). 911's do lots of things really well, and we want to love these cars, but they are definitely not as balanced as the Cayman or as comfortable and usable as the M3.

I will say that PDCC might change my opinion of the car, as that should improve the rebound heaviness and head toss in the rear. It helps quite a bit on Panameras, but I haven't driven a 911 with PDCC.

Bottom line is that I love 911's, and it's a better sports car than the M3 hands down. But they don't fit my needs and how I want to use a sports car these days, and to me, it's not a given that "if you like a Cayman, you'll love the 911."

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

All,

I have 47k miles on my '15 F80 m3 6mt. I've considered getting ridden of it but it's just been a spotless all around excellent vehicle. For the sake of this commentary, know that I'm riding on 18" wheels rocking 265/285 continental DW tires (i.e. slightly taller and wider than stock).

My boss just bought a fully loaded 2017 Cayman S. It was a dealer car loaded with every option. PASM, 20" wheels, Sport Chrono, etc.

He handed me the keys and let me drive it the way it's meant to be. And now I can't get it out of my head.

First, let me acknowledge I'm comparing a 4-door sedan to a 2-door mid-engine car. But I'm not comparing their track capabilities. The cayman DROVE better.

I realize this can become a contentious topic because it's the subjective. The feel of a chassis, steering feel, braking feel, ride quality, response, sound, etc.

What first hit me was I drove over a patch of broken up pavement I've driven over many times in the m3. It creates substantial body movements and chassis disruption. It doesn't feel good either. In the Cayman in Sport mode, it floated over it. You felt it, you felt connected to the road, it just didn't bother the cayman.

As I began to toss it around more I began to realize all of it's manners just felt like a higher level than I'm used to.

Now I can't stop thinking about it and need to go drive a 911 with PASM. I can't do a cayman with 3 boys - it's just not right as I'd never be able to take them with me. But if a new(ish) 911 drives like this...

Just wanted to share this.

Joe

P.s. I haven't driven an f8x comp package yet, which I understand also offers a superior suspension feel/ride quality than the adaptive suspension 2015 f8x.

Have you coded your car to the CS EDM version yet? Or made the GTS coding upgrades?

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Interesting, the one area that a modern 911 really excels well above and beyond anything BMW has every produced, including the GTS, is suspension and damping. Porsche has is dialed and dialed correctly correctly with the 911. They are smooth and balanced on the street and docile, communicate well, telegraph and predictably rotate. These are the easiest cars to throttle steer in the world if you know what you are doing. BMWs are kind of mess despite their skid pad or traction umbers.

BMW chassis, suspension and damping are compromised feeling, twitchy and lack feed back. Lol, on the noise. It’s a sports car and has big tires. You would hate my Italians, but probably love my DB11.

Boom from engine compartment in a base 911 is a first though. Then again, I may be half deaf from 20 + years racing and driving cars that are actually old on the street.

Agreed. The suspension geometry and dampening is not matched by any other car maker. There is a world of difference between my f80/2 M3/4 to my 991.2S. The 991.2 is so much more balanced, comfortable, soaks up broken asphalt and pavement like an M car could only wish. It puts down power and has handling and feel few cars can match. On top of that, it sounds great as opposed to sounding like you’re dragging a soup can beind you in the M.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Darth One

It's funny because the Cayman has the engine even closer to the back of your head, but you didn't mention it bothering you.

I agree that 911's make a good amount of noise, but totally disagree with the characterization of that noise being "bad" Porsche flat sixes make the best sounds. Unless you were driving a 991.2 , lolz

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Interesting, the one area that a modern 911 really excels well above and beyond anything BMW has every produced, including the GTS, is suspension and damping. Porsche has is dialed and dialed correctly correctly with the 911. They are smooth and balanced on the street and docile, communicate well, telegraph and predictably rotate. These are the easiest cars to throttle steer in the world if you know what you are doing. BMWs are kind of mess despite their skid pad or traction umbers.

BMW chassis, suspension and damping are compromised feeling, twitchy and lack feed back. Lol, on the noise. It's a sports car and has big tires. You would hate my Italians, but probably love my DB11.

Boom from engine compartment in a base 911 is a first though. Then again, I may be half deaf from 20 + years racing and driving cars that are actually old on the street.

The noise has nothing to do with the engine itself, it's the road, tire, and suspension impact noise that makes its way through the engine compartment to your ears. The engine and exhaust sound fine. Again, it's fine for a weekend sports car, but it got VERY tiring after a couple hours on the freeway and textured B roads that we were on. I can drive hours in my M3 with no issue. I couldn't wait to get out of the 911. The performance on good roads is excellent, but over the course of the weekend, and considering all types of driving and roads, I did not enjoy driving it more than my M3.

[adc]

Originally Posted by mechanic75

Get your software updated then see how you feel about it.

Not all 2015’s can be updated, there was a subtle hardware change at some point in the model year. My 2015 fell in this category so no updates.

I’m jumping into a 2018 this year, will be interesting to compare. And I have an Ohlins suspension lined up already.


Stock for stock, Porsche damping is absolutely incredible, noticeable leap up from BMW.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by Racer20

The noise has nothing to do with the engine itself, it's the road, tire, and suspension impact noise that makes its way through the engine compartment to your ears. The engine and exhaust sound fine. Again, it's fine for a weekend sports car, but it got VERY tiring after a couple hours on the freeway and textured B roads that we were on. I can drive hours in my M3 with no issue. I couldn't wait to get out of the 911. The performance on good roads is excellent, but over the course of the weekend, and considering all types of driving and roads, I did not enjoy driving it more than my M3.

Are you sure it was a 911? Water cooled 911s are much more comfy daily drivers than my F80 ZCP speaking from experience of owning 13 modern or water cooled 911s all purchased new and mostly turbos, except 2 used since my 2001 996tt.

I only once noticed road noise back on one of my 996tts that had the shitty Contis. MPS solved that issue.

My ZCP has a crappy ride and very uncomfortable seats.

[Darth One]

Maybe he drove a GT3 Clubsport? Those Turbos are downright luxury cars when not being driven in anger.

Anyway, not to discount Racer20's opinion, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Any current 911 is quieter and more comfortable than the cars I drive. I don't have a "normal" F8x so I'll take his word that it has better NVh control

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Are you sure it was a 911? Water cooled 911s are much more comfy daily drivers than my F80 ZCP speaking from experience of owning 13 modern or water cooled 911s all purchased new and mostly turbos, except 2 used since my 2001 996tt.

I only once noticed road noise back on one of 996tts had the shitty Contis. MOS solved that issue.

My ZCP has a crappy ride and very uncomfortable seats.

Porsche rides better in 20’s than BMW does on 19s. If you put 19s on a 911 it would ride even better.

The ride quality in the ZCP is downright brittle and not acceptable for a car that starts at 6x,xxx.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by Darth One

Maybe he drove a GT3 Clubsport? Those Turbos are downright luxury cars when not being driven in anger.

Anyway, not to discount Racer20's opinion, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Any current 911 is quieter and more comfortable than the cars I drive. I don't have a "normal" F8x so I'll take his word that it has better NVh control

Mine just has Swift’s, but I hit that liitle preset button that turns everything on to sports plus every single time I cranked my F80 ZCP. Maybe it is a pussy cat on that non sport setting what ever it’s called . . . some thing like p&$&$y. Why even buy me setting.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I don’t get how people get past the Subaru sound. Much rather have a clean cpo 981 GTS than any 718. My friend is a salesman at a Porsche dealer, they are not selling eventhough they advertise some of their inventory with close to 10% off. There are even brand new 2017’s leftover.

I had a hard time hearing any “Subaru” and I’ve logged several hours of drive time in the 718 S and GTS. The GTS sounds very good if you ask me, and downright race like at high rpm. I certainly wouldn’t object to having one. Sure, it’s not as naughty sounding as the 3.4 Flat 6, but no manufacturer that went to turbo motors has been praised for having a better sounding car than their normally aspirated counterpart. Move to the rest of the car, and the 718 feels very GT4 in its delivery of performance and handling and feel - it is about as perfect and ideal as you get.

[nicknaz]

there are some combos of road + tire that make lots of noise and maybe racer20 just had bad luck with his route

It seems to be the noise that bothered him more than the ride

[blschaefer1]

I’ve had a 981 Cayman S and a 991.1 Carrera S. Both had 20’s. Ride quality was fine, but road noise and tire roar was very high in both. Can’t get around it in lightweight small car with large tires and minimal soundproofing. Also, there is no shrouding in the rear fenders, leaving pebbles and debris from the tires to bounce into the mufflers, causing more noise. Never understood why Porsche never addressed this.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

I’ve had a 981 Cayman S and a 991.1 Carrera S. Both had 20’s. Ride quality was fine, but road noise and tire roar was very high in both. Can’t get around it in lightweight small car with large tires and minimal soundproofing. Also, there is no shrouding in the rear fenders, leaving pebbles and debris from the tires to bounce into the mufflers, causing more noise. Never understood why Porsche never addressed this.

None of this is a big deal nor really matters. I am just curious. I also have only raced Spec Caymans, but never actually spent time in street Caymans.

Did you have Contis on the 911? Which tires did you have? I know the Continentals do make noise from experience in turbos with wider tires. I have a 991.2 turbo and my wife has 997.2 with 305s. Both have PS4s. I have been driving my turbo all day and was listening for road noise since this thread.

Lol, I must be deaf from my band touring days because I don't hear crap or pebbles. My wife's car is dead quiet also and both of ours are cabriolets with a lot of camber.

[nicknaz]

^ I have been listening too, but europipe "loud" exhaust lives up to its name and drowns it all out.

[Fined]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Now I can't stop thinking about it and need to go drive a 911 with PASM. I can't do a cayman with 3 boys - it's just not right as I'd never be able to take them with me. But if a new(ish) 911 drives like this...

PASM is good. Sport PASM is that bit more that really gels the whole thing. It was one of my requirements.

The right performance options really make the experience on a 911. They are making these cars to appeal to a broad range of folks so the difference between a base model without performance options and a top spec Carrera with driver focused options is big.

I daily drove my 997 GTS for 2 years and loved every minute of it.