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      05-14-2022, 07:05 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I realize they aren't even anywhere near the same league but I'd be interested to hear a compare and contrast between your old CS and current 911 Turbo.
Very different machines in terms of driving experience. My M4cs will keep a treasured place in my heart as one the most enjoyable cars I’ve owned and was a fantastic dual use car. I love the concept of one car that does it all, and the M4cs fit that bill very well. I also loved the looks of my M4cs, I never got tired of looking at it. It is one great looking car.

The 911 has the advantage of being built as a sports car from the ground up, as opposed to the more humble foundations of the M4, so it offers more purity in terms of driving and connection. The handling is super precise, responses to inputs almost seem telepathic. While the M4 was still quite amenable to throttle steer, the 911 is on another level in that respect where just a slight lift promptly tucks the nose in. So one can position the car much more easily. The rear axle steer surely contributes to that nimbleness. The AWD on the turbo is also superbly tuned and mainly feels like a RWD car, where you can get nice power on rotation on corner exit. You only feel the AWD when the rear steps out a little too far, stay on the throttle and the front axle will pull you out of the slide. The M4cs was still a very precise track machine, particularly when compared to its direct competitors like the the C63 or RS5, but when compared to the 911 it needed a bit more muscle and anticipation to hustle on track. I’ve always liked the alcantara steering wheel in my M4cs and the feedback it provided, but driving my buddies M4cs on track after having driven my turbo, the steering wheel seemed fat, heavy and stuck in molasses in contrast. The M4cs was obviously more practical with full rear seats and a much larger cargo area that allowed me to carry my track tires. With the 911 I need to compromise with dual use street/track tires and the PSC2 (I use the 991.2 GT2/3RS spec) do a very decent job. Now that I’ve got the setup properly dialled in in terms of pressures and alignment, I am getting 8+ track days out if the tires plus the daily drive. Which is twice what I got out of the track only NT01 on the M4cs. The PSC2 is not as grippy as the NT01 (~1.5sec/lap slower than the NT01 on my M4cs), but offers a very decent compromise. Despite the less sticky tires, I am still 3 sec/lap faster in the turbo compared to the M4cs, and I am convinced there is still plenty of improvement room left as I get more familiar with the platform (going from 20 years of front engine RWD to rear engine AWD does require some level of adaptation). Acceleration on the turbo is also on another level, which is expected from 120 additional hp for about the same weight. Launch control is total bonkers, with repeatable back-to-back 2.4~2.5sec 0-60mph stints. And the brakes are just superb. The completely stock brakes (even the pads) perform flawlessly on track with zero signs of fade.

For the daily use, the 911 still offers very decent practicality. On a few occasions, I took the whole family (wife and two kids 8 and 11) on road trips. We made the 2~3 hour drive to the cottage in relative comfort with 3 carry-0n sized suitcases (two in the frunk and one on the shelf behind the rear seats), fishing gear and a dozen bottles of wine. Quite impressive. My Sport-PASM equipped 911turbo rides quite more firmly than my M4cs, but the damping in the 911 is much better controlled, even though I found the CS damping to be top tier. For winter driving, the turbo beats the M4cs hands down with the AWD being a key ally, but also the active aero that retracts the front splitter for improved ground clearance. In contrast, the CF front splitter was barely an inch off the ground on my lowered cs, but it was still a blast to drive in the white stuff.

For sure the turbo is 2x the initial investment over the M4cs. However, I’ve been pleasantly surprised with the running costs so far. Track days consumables are practically on par with the M4cs despite being significantly faster. Depreciation will be the big question mark which I’ll find out about in three years when I sell the 911, but I suspect it might not be that bad. All in all, quite pleased with 911 experience so far and I do not regret having made the jump

PS: sorry for the long winded post, got up early as I couldn’t sleep and just typed away waiting for the family to wake up
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      05-14-2022, 07:44 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I realize they aren't even anywhere near the same league but I'd be interested to hear a compare and contrast between your old CS and current 911 Turbo.
Very different machines in terms of driving experience. My M4cs will keep a treasured place in my heart as one the most enjoyable cars I've owned and was a fantastic dual use car. I love the concept of one car that does it all, and the M4cs fit that bill very well. I also loved the looks of my M4cs, I never got tired of looking at it. It is one great looking car.

The 911 has the advantage of being built as a sports car from the ground up, as opposed to the more humble foundations of the M4, so it offers more purity in terms of driving and connection. The handling is super precise, responses to inputs almost seem telepathic. While the M4 was still quite amenable to throttle steer, the 911 is on another level in that respect where just a slight lift promptly tucks the nose in. So one can position the car much more easily. The rear axle steer surely contributes to that nimbleness. The AWD on the turbo is also superbly tuned and mainly feels like a RWD car, where you can get nice power on rotation on corner exit. You only feel the AWD when the rear steps out a little too far, stay on the throttle and the front axle will pull you out of the slide. The M4cs was still a very precise track machine, particularly when compared to its direct competitors like the the C63 or RS5, but when compared to the 911 it needed a bit more muscle and anticipation to hustle on track. I've always liked the alcantara steering wheel in my M4cs and the feedback it provided, but driving my buddies M4cs on track after having driven my turbo, the steering wheel seemed fat, heavy and stuck in molasses in contrast. The M4cs was obviously more practical with full rear seats and a much larger cargo area that allowed me to carry my track tires. With the 911 I need to compromise with dual use street/track tires and the PSC2 (I use the 991.2 GT2/3RS spec) do a very decent job. Now that I've got the setup properly dialled in in terms of pressures and alignment, I am getting 8+ track days out if the tires plus the daily drive. Which is twice what I got out of the track only NT01 on the M4cs. The PSC2 is not as grippy as the NT01 (~1.5sec/lap slower than the NT01 on my M4cs), but offers a very decent compromise. Despite the less sticky tires, I am still 3 sec/lap faster in the turbo compared to the M4cs, and I am convinced there is still plenty of improvement room left as I get more familiar with the platform (going from 20 years of front engine RWD to rear engine AWD does require some level of adaptation). Acceleration on the turbo is also on another level, which is expected from 120 additional hp for about the same weight. Launch control is total bonkers, with repeatable back-to-back 2.4~2.5sec 0-60mph stints. And the brakes are just superb. The completely stock brakes (even the pads) perform flawlessly on track with zero signs of fade.

For the daily use, the 911 still offers very decent practicality. On a few occasions, I took the whole family (wife and two kids 8 and 11) on road trips. We made the 2~3 hour drive to the cottage in relative comfort with 3 hand carry suitcases (two in the frunk and one on the shelf behind the rear seats), fishing gear and a dozen bottles of wine. Quite impressive. My Sport-PASM equipped 911turbo rides quite more firmly than my M4cs, but the damping in the 911 is much better controlled, even though I found the CS damping to be top tier. For winter driving, the turbo beats the M4cs hands down with the AWD being a key ally, but also the active aero that retracts the front splitter for improved ground clearance. In contrast, the CF front splitter was barely an inch off the ground on my lowered cs, but it was still a blast to drive in the white stuff.

For sure the turbo is 2x the initial investment over the M4cs. However, I've been pleasantly surprised with the running costs so far. Track days consumables are practically on par with the M4cs despite being significantly faster. Depreciation will be the big question mark which I'll find out about in three years when I sell the 911, but I suspect it might not be that bad. All in all, quite pleased with 911 experience so far and I do not regret having made the jump

PS: sorry for the long winded post, got up early as I couldn't sleep and just typed away waiting for the family to wake up
A fantastic candid review. It's amazing what a capable track weapon the turbo is and how overshadowed it is by the GT cars in this department. Add in its year round usability, AWD, and the ability to haul people and stuff and your choice of the turbo becomes clear. Would you say it feels more or less raw than a CS? I agree about your impressions of the fat steering wheel and it's characteristics btw.
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      05-14-2022, 11:03 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
A fantastic candid review. It's amazing what a capable track weapon the turbo is and how overshadowed it is by the GT cars in this department. Add in its year round usability, AWD, and the ability to haul people and stuff and your choice of the turbo becomes clear. Would you say it feels more or less raw than a CS? I agree about your impressions of the fat steering wheel and it's characteristics btw.
Porsche infused a lot of “GT” in the turbo for the 992 generation. In the various interviews with Porsche, they said they wanted to bring more sportiness to the turbo series and make it less of grand tourers. They said they want it to be the sportiest non-GT 911. The Sport-PASM suspension was in fact developed by the GT division. The now available Sport exhaust makes it sound more throaty and less like a vacuum cleaner. The vast majority of the folks I know that own GT-series 911 all say these cars are too harsh to drive on the street. Most even trailer them to the track because they deem them to harsh just to drive to the track. I had the opportunity to drive several GT series 911 on track (a 991.2 GT2RS just last week) and for sure they offer a much purer driving experience on track, but I find a well specced turbo offers a very decent compromise.

Interestingly, the turbo feels both more raw and more refined at the same time than the M4cs. You sit much lower in the 911 making you feel more connected with the road. In the most aggressive Sport+ setting, it is more raw in driving dynamics, much more brutal in ever way. The suspension is quite stiff, the tires noisy (particularly the PSC2j and the engine ferocious. Dial it down to the Normal setting and it become more refined. The suspension, while still quite stiff, dampens all the sharp edges of the road. The interior remains boomy from road noise, but the chassis is super stiff with no rattles, squeaks or suspension noises to be heard. You just feel surrounded in a higher level of luxury than in the M4cs.
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      05-14-2022, 11:21 AM   #180
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Some paddock photos
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      05-15-2022, 11:08 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Like most dealer service departments (when they do an oil change on an M2 CS, M3 CS or M4 CS and leave it a 1/2 liter short on the fill), I forgot about that part. P/N: 11-13-7-838-706. Looks like it is $896.50 at getbmwparts.
The oil level sensor is also of a different PN on the CS and GTS, has a different length to correctly read the oil level.
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      05-15-2022, 06:47 PM   #182
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Can’t recall what year they switched the CF driveshaft from carbon fiber to steel, but the CS got the CF variant.
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      05-17-2022, 09:24 PM   #183
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So been daily driving for a few days with Cup2s on and my immediate impression is that the CS really deserves them. Steering feedback is bumped up a notch and the car feels even more lively through the steering wheel, and so far I can immediately tell that there is a ton of grip there that I think they're perfectly livable with a better than expected ride quality. I guess the caveat here is I'm on G80 Cup2s (275F/285R) but I imagine the older 180tw still feel pretty similar.

I'm pretty excited to run a couple back roads this weekend and probably another track day next month to really get some usage out of them.
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      05-19-2022, 04:04 AM   #184
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Quote:
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Chassis tuning, e diff, bushings, sway bars, wheels, springs all different on CS. Good luck getting exact CS performance without spending a fortune. Suspension was just part of the 25 K markup. Then add motor tuning, carbon fiber bits, different interior etc. etc. and the 25K extra everybody complained about was not a bad bargain.
The electrically controlled mechanical LSD diff is the identical part in all M3, M4, M2, so it's only a matter of coding to choose CS settings or perhaps GTS. Similarly the CS engine tune is out there along of course with other choices too. The front sway bar is an OE part from the base M3. Damper tuning is again a choice of coding, base, ZCP, CS, GTS. The 763M wheels are the most expensive part to purchase perhaps along with the carbon fiber bits. However, for a mild outlay of $, you can get very close to the CS performance envelope starting with a base M3, perhaps a 2016 higher mileage example if you forego all the appearance items.

The flip side to the above is that the current market is pricing so little premium on M3 CS examples versus same mileage non-CS cars, that it's a fantastic deal to buy one now if you plan to keep for the long haul. That spread between CS and non-CS cars will widen substantially going forward I would guess...it surely won't collapse further than the current moment in time.
I think price spread might be because so many dealers are listing M3 cars as CS modes when they are not. It's affecting comps. I see quite a few and when I click on them first thing I look for is CS hood which in some cases is not there.
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      05-19-2022, 05:06 AM   #185
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I think price spread might be because so many dealers are listing M3 cars as CS modes when they are not. It's affecting comps. I see quite a few and when I click on them first thing I look for is CS hood which in some cases is not there.
We've had discussions about this issue in the M3 CS for sale thread. Yes, this is a huge problem for all those pricing algorithms. For the past two years dealers and individuals have been listing many ZCP competition pkg cars as a CS, so kbb, cargurus, autotrader, etc pricing models are completely worthless for a true CS. For whatever reason, this issue is not nearly as prevalent for the M4 CS.
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      05-19-2022, 06:40 AM   #186
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I got a couple of trade-in quotes for my M3CS from two different BMW dealerships, and both gave me Comp value (~63k). Both times I told the used car manager to talk to new car sales rep in order for them to figure out what exactly a CS was; one of them even sent me a spreadsheet with local “CS” inventory in order to justify their shit offer, and nearly all the cars on that list were Comps listed as CS.

Needless to say, selling to an enthusiast who knows what’s up is the best way to get full value on a CS. Wish they’d be this ignorant about M2 Comp vs. CS pricing 🙄
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      05-19-2022, 07:07 AM   #187
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I got a couple of trade-in quotes for my M3CS from two different BMW dealerships, and both gave me Comp value (~63k). Both times I told the used car manager to talk to new car sales rep in order for them to figure out what exactly a CS was; one of them even sent me a spreadsheet with local “CS” inventory in order to justify their shit offer, and nearly all the cars on that list were Comps listed as CS.

Needless to say, selling to an enthusiast who knows what’s up is the best way to get full value on a CS. Wish they’d be this ignorant about M2 Comp vs. CS pricing 🙄
This will correct over time as the CS 2nd+ owners will more likely to be fully knowledgeable about the car. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those BMW dealerships know exactly what they were trying to do. If the car is in exceptional condition, perhaps contact EAG about their offer on it, or put it on BaT.
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      05-19-2022, 08:50 AM   #188
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This will correct over time as the CS 2nd+ owners will more likely to be fully knowledgeable about the car. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those BMW dealerships know exactly what they were trying to do. If the car is in exceptional condition, perhaps contact EAG about their offer on it, or put it on BaT.
That was my thought too, that they’re playing the dumb card hoping I’d accept the offer, then they flip it for $20k more.
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      05-20-2022, 10:11 AM   #189
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Can’t recall what year they switched the CF driveshaft from carbon fiber to steel, but the CS got the CF variant.
Depends on date of manufacture. Europe got the m4cs 2017/18 only. At the same time, we got the m3 CS.

Our M4cs didn't show up until 2019, which by then we got the non-CF driveshaft. My 2020 does not have it.
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      05-20-2022, 12:00 PM   #190
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Depends on date of manufacture. Europe got the m4cs 2017/18 only. At the same time, we got the m3 CS.

Our M4cs didn't show up until 2019, which by then we got the non-CF driveshaft. My 2020 does not have it.
Are you sure about that? According to the BMW ETK, all F8Xcs have the CF driveshaft. It was also explicitly mentioned in the press releases.
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      05-21-2022, 06:17 AM   #191
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s View Post
Depends on date of manufacture. Europe got the m4cs 2017/18 only. At the same time, we got the m3 CS.

Our M4cs didn't show up until 2019, which by then we got the non-CF driveshaft. My 2020 does not have it.
Are you sure about that? According to the BMW ETK, all F8Xcs have the CF driveshaft. It was also explicitly mentioned in the press releases.
Yes. CS retained CF driveshaft because they didn't have OPF.

OPF = steel drive shaft. Simple as
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      05-21-2022, 07:51 AM   #192
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Yes. CS retained CF driveshaft because they didn't have OPF.

OPF = steel drive shaft. Simple as
I don’t believe that is the case in North America, as none of the F8X cars got OPF here but were still fitted with the steel two piece driveshaft at some point.
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      05-21-2022, 09:36 AM   #193
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Yes. CS retained CF driveshaft because they didn't have OPF.

OPF = steel drive shaft. Simple as
I don't believe that is the case in North America, as none of the F8X cars got OPF here but were still fitted with the steel two piece driveshaft at some point.
Sometimes, I just forget North America exists

They axed the base and Comp F80 M3 for European markets earlier than the rest of the world, in May 2018, because of the aforementioned emissions regs.
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      05-21-2022, 05:23 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagon View Post
Yes. CS retained CF driveshaft because they didn't have OPF.

OPF = steel drive shaft. Simple as
I don't believe that is the case in North America, as none of the F8X cars got OPF here but were still fitted with the steel two piece driveshaft at some point.
Sometimes, I just forget North America exists

They axed the base and Comp F80 M3 for European markets earlier than the rest of the world, in May 2018, because of the aforementioned emissions regs.
You forget the global hegemons exist? How? Good for you though. Hint: it's why cars get progressively bigger and heavier, and why SUV's even exist let alone dominate the landscape as they do. Kinda hard to ignore or forget.
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      05-22-2022, 01:20 PM   #195
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Quote:
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Depends on date of manufacture. Europe got the m4cs 2017/18 only. At the same time, we got the m3 CS.

Our M4cs didn't show up until 2019, which by then we got the non-CF driveshaft. My 2020 does not have it.
Are you sure about that? According to the BMW ETK, all F8Xcs have the CF driveshaft. It was also explicitly mentioned in the press releases.
As always, the PR department and factory clearly don't communicate with one another. It's true for ECE spec cars as they were built in 2017/2018. However, USA did not get the m4cs until 2019. The M4cs is just another m4, built on the assembly line with all the others. By 2019 bmw wasn't assembling m4s with the CF driveshaft because the ECE spec versions needed the steel version to have room for their OPF. The USA versions didn't get the OPF, but once again, were being built at the same time on the same assembly line with the same steel driveshafts. Let's have someone post a pic of their USA m4cs with a CF driveshaft. I'd like to be proven wrong.
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      05-22-2022, 03:18 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s View Post
As always, the PR department and factory clearly don't communicate with one another. It's true for ECE spec cars as they were built in 2017/2018. However, USA did not get the m4cs until 2019. The M4cs is just another m4, built on the assembly line with all the others. By 2019 bmw wasn't assembling m4s with the CF driveshaft because the ECE spec versions needed the steel version to have room for their OPF. The USA versions didn't get the OPF, but once again, were being built at the same time on the same assembly line with the same steel driveshafts. Let's have someone post a pic of their USA m4cs with a CF driveshaft. I'd like to be proven wrong.
Again, when you look at the BMW ETK (this is the official parts catalogue used by the factory), the CF driveshaft is explicitly specified for the CS models.

When typing the VIN for my old car (July 2018 build), the PN of the CF driveshaft comes out. Looking up late build (Nov-2019) M4cs also calls for the CF driveshaft on the ETK, yet when looking up a non-CS models for the same build date (Nov-2019) it shows the steel 2-piece driveshaft. Look it up for yourself.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-22-2022 at 03:25 PM..
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      05-22-2022, 03:20 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s View Post
Let's have someone post a pic of their USA m4cs with a CF driveshaft. I'd like to be proven wrong.
What r u lazy? Prove it. Do it on your own damn car. lmao

Last edited by 1FZFE; 05-22-2022 at 03:27 PM..
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      05-23-2022, 12:19 PM   #198
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