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      06-24-2018, 08:47 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minorfall@yahoo.com View Post
My wife did that the other day and accidentally hit the gas pedal. The car lurched forward and hit me. Fortunately, I did not get hurt. The parking brake is no substitution for being in Park. The engine will overpower the parking brake. It is dangerous to leave it in drive and rely on the parking brake.
This could be why I was told by my dealership to follow this sequence, pull to enable park brake, put into N, then tap the on/off button. Vs going directly into P with the car in gear.

Might be a good procedure to follow to help keep the car stable when going into P?
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      06-24-2018, 07:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by MomoM3 View Post
Been driving exclusively manual BMWs for 15 years. Came here to say I had an F80 DCT for a weekend recently and hated how unintuitive the gear selector was.

I understood there wasnít a P, my issue was that over the weekend I couldnít quite figure out how to go from R to 1 logically or easily put into N. I felt clueless. So much so that I didnít want it in my next car. I felt that the DCT over-complicated the experience.
To move from R to 1, you simply pull the gear selector back into the gate, (kind of like putting it in the neutral or non-engaged position of a manual transmission). It will then be in either D1 or S1, depending on which mode you started in. Pushing it to the right again will toggle between D1 and S1. To put it in N, move the gear selector to the left. It's something you quickly become used to when done regularly. If I have to move the car back and forth, to center the car in a parking space for example, I have no problem easily moving between R and 1. In fact, on my Z4 M Roadster, it's harder to put it into reverse because of the strong detent. I have to shove it to the left and up pretty hard and I don't always get it on the first try when backing up.

I rented a Mercedes a while ago and I literally couldn't figure out how to back the car up to leave the rental place. There was no gear selector on the console. The gear selector looked just like a turn signal stalk or a windshield wiper stalk which was at a 45 degree angle above the wiper stalk. It was because I wasn't used to it. Never had a problem after that, once I figured out what I had to do.
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      06-25-2018, 10:03 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
To move from R to 1, you simply pull the gear selector back into the gate, (kind of like putting it in the neutral or non-engaged position of a manual transmission). It will then be in either D1 or S1, depending on which mode you started in. Pushing it to the right again will toggle between D1 and S1. To put it in N, move the gear selector to the left. It's something you quickly become used to when done regularly. If I have to move the car back and forth, to center the car in a parking space for example, I have no problem easily moving between R and 1. In fact, on my Z4 M Roadster, it's harder to put it into reverse because of the strong detent. I have to shove it to the left and up pretty hard and I don't always get it on the first try when backing up.

I rented a Mercedes a while ago and I literally couldn't figure out how to back the car up to leave the rental place. There was no gear selector on the console. The gear selector looked just like a turn signal stalk or a windshield wiper stalk which was at a 45 degree angle above the wiper stalk. It was because I wasn't used to it. Never had a problem after that, once I figured out what I had to do.
We have a Mercedes ML and X5M and I would sometimes hit my windshield wiper stalk on the X5M trying to put the beast in drive lol.
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      06-26-2018, 07:00 AM   #92
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This post is so funny. Amazes me how people cannot, or maybe will not learn anything new. This isn't 1950, MOVE ON!

The park process is the simplest I have ever had in a car. It works perfect.

Come to stop, pull parking brake, shut off engine, DONE!

BMW just needs its buyers to pass a simple IQ test before they let anyone buy an M. HAHA
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      06-26-2018, 11:16 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
I've quoted my previous post above. It's this simple:
  1. Pull into your garage or parking space
  2. Pull up the parking brake
  3. Press the On/Off Button once. This turns off the ignition and immediately puts the car in Park. (Don't put the car into neutral first!)
  4. Take your foot off the brake
    • Press the button again if you want. This turns off the car, or just wait until step 5.
    • If you have a manual, take your foot off the clutch (extra step for the die hards)
  5. Get out of the car and lock the car. Locking the car turns off the car, same effect as pushing the on/off button twice, except that it also locks the car.
It's literally that freaking simple. It's exactly the same freaking procedure for a DCT or a 6MT. The gist of it is in steps 2 and 3.

If your BMW "Genius" told you to first put the car in Neutral before pressing the on/off button, then they're an idiot, this is totally not necessary. If you do this, you will be in Neutral and when you turn off the ignition with the first button press, the car will complain. Pressing the button the second time will automatically put the car in Park. So just don't do it this way, press the on/off button while still in gear and this will put the car in Park.

If you're watching the video with the German speaker, just turn on closed captioning in your browser and you can read everything he says.

No, your steps are not simple.

This is simple (from my non-inspiring dual clutch PDK /s)

1. Pull into your garage or parking space
2. Put the car in Park.
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      06-26-2018, 11:19 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minorfall@yahoo.com View Post
My wife did that the other day and accidentally hit the gas pedal. The car lurched forward and hit me. Fortunately, I did not get hurt. The parking brake is no substitution for being in Park. The engine will overpower the parking brake. It is dangerous to leave it in drive and rely on the parking brake.
It happens to me today too.

My wife accidentally hit the gas pedal while she tried to reach for my coat at the back seat. I was getting out of the car with my one foot on the ground. The car dragged me for about five feet and it totally re-aggravated my knee problem.

One positive is my wife is totally traumatized and hates the M4 so much. The car is all mine now.
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      06-27-2018, 04:05 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluM4 View Post
It happens to me today too.

My wife accidentally hit the gas pedal while she tried to reach for my coat at the back seat. I was getting out of the car with my one foot on the ground. The car dragged me for about five feet and it totally re-aggravated my knee problem.

One positive is my wife is totally traumatized and hates the M4 so much. The car is all mine now.
So the argument is that one could put a different gearbox in P, but couldn't put this one in N?
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      06-27-2018, 12:39 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluM4 View Post
No, your steps are not simple.

This is simple (from my non-inspiring dual clutch PDK /s)

1. Pull into your garage or parking space
2. Put the car in Park.
So you don't put on the parking brake? You don't turn off the ignition? You don't take your foot off the brake? You don't lock your car? You're right, your sequence is "simple", it leaves out the other major steps.

I dunno, maybe Porsches are that different...
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      06-27-2018, 12:42 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluM4 View Post
It happens to me today too.

My wife accidentally hit the gas pedal while she tried to reach for my coat at the back seat. I was getting out of the car with my one foot on the ground. The car dragged me for about five feet and it totally re-aggravated my knee problem.

One positive is my wife is totally traumatized and hates the M4 so much. The car is all mine now.
And this is the fault of the transmission how?

Rule #1: After parking the car, always secure it before doing anything else, including reaching for your husband's coat in the back seat...
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      06-27-2018, 04:25 PM   #98
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      06-27-2018, 08:37 PM   #99
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This thread is so ridiculous.
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      07-07-2018, 01:47 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
P.S. Not to mention, you can repeat this process with BMW cars w/ ZF transmissions that do have P button. I have tested this before, you don't need a P button. A F30 can completely bypass it's park button if you do exactly what you do with a F80 DCT to a F30 Auto car. It is NOT a big deal.
Just had a 320i loaner while my M3 was in for routine servicing.
First time driving a non-M of the current 3-series generation.

Whatever type of torque converter auto transmission it had, while the gear selector had a P button, it did switch to P on its own when I shut down the engine while in D.

While overall probably a decent car, and on par with its class, I thought the 320i was pretty disappointing to drive.
Can't believe that the 320i and my M3 are fundamentally the same.

I've never driven a DCT M3, but can see how having an auto transmission in the M3 would be nice at times. Generally easier to get around, especially in stop-and-go traffic, and can just focus on steering and braking.
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      07-08-2018, 05:58 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by eonflux View Post
Just had a 320i loaner while my M3 was in for routine servicing.
First time driving a non-M of the current 3-series generation.

Whatever type of torque converter auto transmission it had, while the gear selector had a P button, it did switch to P on its own when I shut down the engine while in D.

While overall probably a decent car, and on par with its class, I thought the 320i was pretty disappointing to drive.
Can't believe that the 320i and my M3 are fundamentally the same.

I've never driven a DCT M3, but can see how having an auto transmission in the M3 would be nice at times. Generally easier to get around, especially in stop-and-go traffic, and can just focus on steering and braking.
It's not really the same per say.

The ZF in the F30 are designed more for street driving with a hint of sport. There isn't much to the transmission other than, it's a very typical... normal ZF Auto you'll find in other cars. Almost all ZFs are the same, regardless if M got their hands on it.

M-DCT is different than most transmissions, even compared to other DCTs as it is designed to mimic a 6MT. 15-16 M-DCTs were very rough, Sport+ was near impossible to drive smoothly on the street, only after a lot of firmware updates did this get smoothed out. Obviously the other difference is the parking feature, which I love being the way it is with the F80/F82. The main reason why so many online complain about this is because they have 0 experience with manual and how they are generally put into park.

You always use the handbrake first. Once you do this, the rest isn't a problem. This is not difficult.
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      07-08-2018, 07:05 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
The main reason why so many online complain about this is because they have 0 experience with manual and how they are generally put into park.
This sounds right. Love the DCT as its intuitive for manual drivers. And so much better than the S-Tronic dual clutch in the previous gen Audi S4.
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      07-08-2018, 11:50 AM   #103
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This is BMWs way of classifying the DCT as "manual" car. No park button, just stop, pull handbrake and turn off the car. Makes finding a real manual car frustrating as hell when you filter for manuals and DCTs are grouped into into that.
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      07-08-2018, 04:03 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
It's not really the same per say.

The ZF in the F30 are designed more for street driving with a hint of sport. There isn't much to the transmission other than, it's a very typical... normal ZF Auto you'll find in other cars. Almost all ZFs are the same, regardless if M got their hands on it.

M-DCT is different than most transmissions, even compared to other DCTs as it is designed to mimic a 6MT. 15-16 M-DCTs were very rough, Sport+ was near impossible to drive smoothly on the street, only after a lot of firmware updates did this get smoothed out. Obviously the other difference is the parking feature, which I love being the way it is with the F80/F82. The main reason why so many online complain about this is because they have 0 experience with manual and how they are generally put into park.

You always use the handbrake first. Once you do this, the rest isn't a problem. This is not difficult.
Wasn't trying to say that the 320i ZF would be similar to the M3 DCT. Just meant to convey that it gave me some sense of what driving a 3-series vehicle would be like without a manual but with an automatic transmission of some type by simply not having to deal with a clutch and shifting all the time.

I had a 991.1 with PDK and have driven other dual clutch vehicles (e92 M3, 991.2, McLaren 650S, Audi TTS, etc). How is the F80 DCT more like a manual than those other dual clutch transmissions? All those other dual clutches similarly behaved differently than a torque converter auto, and one can hear/feel clutch engagement, etc, but I don't recall them being so different in terms of fundamental operation. Yes, perhaps in how quickly/abruptly they shifted, and pattern of shifting, but not in how they engaged, behaved at slow speed, etc. Interesting to hear that the F80 DCT is somehow closer to a manual than other dual clutches, and would like to hear more about that.

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      07-08-2018, 06:27 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eonflux View Post
Wasn't trying to say that the 320i ZF would be similar to he M3 DCT. Just meant to convey that it gave me some sense of what driving a 3-series vehicle would be like without a manual but with an automatic transmission of some type by simply not having to deal with a clutch and shifting all the time.

I had a 991.1 with PDK and have driven other dual clutch vehicles (e92 M3, 991.2, McLaren 650S, Audi TTS, etc). How is the F80 DCT more like a manual than those other dual clutch transmissions? All those other dual clutches similarly behaved differently than a torque converter auto, and one can hear/feel clutch engagement, etc, but I don't recall them being so different in terms of fundamental operation. Yes, perhaps in how quickly/abruptly they shifted, and pattern of shifting, but not in how they engaged, behaved at slow speed, etc. Interesting to hear that the F80 DCT is somehow closer to a manual than other dual clutches, and would like to hear more about that.
As far as I can see, the PDK in the GT3s do not behave differently than a auto. The only reason why people know it is a PDK is purely because of Porsche and they always push for it. They don't have the habit of mixing their transmissions together. When you say Porsche, you either think of PDK or 6MT. Comapred to BMW for instance, usually (as of late) ZF Autos except for M-DCT. The general population cannot tell the difference between a DCT and Torque Converter Auto because they don't care and BMW doesn't put the M-DCT in any other car. The Cayenne is the only exception running a ZF because the needed torque. (I might be wrong so if I am sorry). Even the PDK in the Macan are the Audi DSG converted to Porsche PDK but almost all of them behave like an Auto. When you go into a red light or dead stop, they will eventually roll forward if you don't keep your foot down or you put the car into Hold for lights. That's how it is for the Macan S we have. Even when you park the PDK regardless if it is a 911 or Macan, you just park it. It is the same with Audi or VW.

M-DCT for the F80/F82 do not do this at all. They do not roll forward from a dead stop, in fact you can tell when the clutch in the M-DCT lets go and in a technical sense goes into Neutral unless you put your foot back down or you press the Gas again where the transmission reingages. My older 15 M4, I can actually feel the M-DCT do it but I cannot tell as easily with my 18 M3. The M-DCT also has a hold function for hills, that lasts for maybe 2 seconds give or take otherwise it'll start rolling forward or back given the road conditions. The more you drive the M-DCT, the more you can tell BMW purposely did this with the M-DCT to mimic as much of the 6MT as possible. The only thing I would tell new drivers about the M-DCT is, think of it literally as a Automatic 6MT. I taught the buyer of my 15' M4 in a few minutes how to park the car, he never been in one nor driven a M-DCT before and he got it down within minutes. I never heard from him having issues parking.

When it comes to just straight technical sense, yes all DCTs are the same, more or less anyway. PDK, DSG, M-DCT, VW DCT, even the Benz DCT, technology wise they are the same. It's just the different ways that each car manufacturers goes about applying it is what makes them different.

Last edited by Arcades; 07-08-2018 at 06:35 PM..
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      07-08-2018, 06:50 PM   #106
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This thread is so ridiculous.
Talking about making a mountain into a mole hill. WHEEL CHOCKS?!
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      07-09-2018, 12:19 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
As far as I can see, the PDK in the GT3s do not behave differently than a auto. The only reason why people know it is a PDK is purely because of Porsche and they always push for it. They don't have the habit of mixing their transmissions together. When you say Porsche, you either think of PDK or 6MT. Comapred to BMW for instance, usually (as of late) ZF Autos except for M-DCT. The general population cannot tell the difference between a DCT and Torque Converter Auto because they don't care and BMW doesn't put the M-DCT in any other car. The Cayenne is the only exception running a ZF because the needed torque. (I might be wrong so if I am sorry). Even the PDK in the Macan are the Audi DSG converted to Porsche PDK but almost all of them behave like an Auto. When you go into a red light or dead stop, they will eventually roll forward if you don't keep your foot down or you put the car into Hold for lights. That's how it is for the Macan S we have. Even when you park the PDK regardless if it is a 911 or Macan, you just park it. It is the same with Audi or VW.

M-DCT for the F80/F82 do not do this at all. They do not roll forward from a dead stop, in fact you can tell when the clutch in the M-DCT lets go and in a technical sense goes into Neutral unless you put your foot back down or you press the Gas again where the transmission reingages. My older 15 M4, I can actually feel the M-DCT do it but I cannot tell as easily with my 18 M3. The M-DCT also has a hold function for hills, that lasts for maybe 2 seconds give or take otherwise it'll start rolling forward or back given the road conditions. The more you drive the M-DCT, the more you can tell BMW purposely did this with the M-DCT to mimic as much of the 6MT as possible. The only thing I would tell new drivers about the M-DCT is, think of it literally as a Automatic 6MT. I taught the buyer of my 15' M4 in a few minutes how to park the car, he never been in one nor driven a M-DCT before and he got it down within minutes. I never heard from him having issues parking.

When it comes to just straight technical sense, yes all DCTs are the same, more or less anyway. PDK, DSG, M-DCT, VW DCT, even the Benz DCT, technology wise they are the same. It's just the different ways that each car manufacturers goes about applying it is what makes them different.
The contrast is essentially that Porsche tried to mimic the "creep" of torque converter automatic transmissions with PDK while BMW did not with DCT.

With PDK, when you lift of the brake, the clutch engages automatically so the car can start to move slowly. But my 991.1 did so clumsily at times, especially on hills with the car slipping in the other direction a bit more than I was happy with, and hill hold wasn't always predictable or consistent.

To have a consistent transmission experience across M vehicles, the creep characteristic was programmed out of the ZF transmission in my X6M (F86). After coming to a stop, at some point which didn't seem consistent, the transmission shifted into neutral, so that when I let go of the brake, the X6M didn't move, and sometimes rolled (in neutral) in the direction I didn't want. BMW evidently wanted the X6M ZF to act like a DCT.

I'm not sure which is sillier, for Porsche to try to make PDK act like a TC auto but somewhat failing, or for BMW to make a TC auto act like a dual clutch.

As you point out above, at least Porsche is trying to make the experience with an automatic type transmission consistent across all their vehicles, while BMW makes it a bit confusing with some automatic type transmissions behaving like TC autos and others not.

Which gets at the heart of the original post of this thread, and why I think not having a P button/mode on DCT wasn't a good idea. Most on this board are more knowledgeable about cars in general and M3s/M4s in particular, and more likely to have owned manual cars, than the entire universe of M3/M4 owners who are coming from other PRND cars and wonder why their new fancy M car with RND doesn't have a P, and have no idea how to park a manual car. But even some on this forum occasionally forget about the unique behavior of their DCT. And if you include temporary drivers (valets, car washers, etc), then the potential for confusion and possibly accidents is even greater.

Last edited by eonflux; 07-09-2018 at 03:00 PM..
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      07-11-2018, 01:00 PM   #108
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Dont over think it. Just pull into the space... pull up e-brakes.... press button to turn off engine.... and Voila!! You're in "P" mode like magic!


*** but to be honest.... i had to call my dealer the first day when i took it home while in my garage.... just to ask how to put it in Park. Lmao.
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      07-11-2018, 11:32 PM   #109
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The only time the no Park button bothers me is when I want to get out without turning the motor off, while on a hill. That definitely annoys me sometimes.
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      07-12-2018, 08:19 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IbizaSandro View Post
The only time the no Park button bothers me is when I want to get out without turning the motor off, while on a hill. That definitely annoys me sometimes.
Why ?

Jut pull the handbrake.
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