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      07-29-2017, 11:21 PM   #45
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
We might just be getting hung up on semantics here.

But I don't see a 330i being faster than an M3/4 when properly driven. IMO, the only way to compare how fast they are is in a WOT drag race. Partial throttle is a pointless comparison. If we're saying one is "faster" than the other for a given throttle application, does it really mean anything ? I say Just apply more throttle on the other and it will be faster.

What I mean by "responsive" is a more prompt response at initial tip in when launching from rest. With the DCT, there is an inherent delay before the clutch is engaged after throttle tip in, which can make it feel sluggish off the line. When being heavy footed, there will be an even longer delay because the DCT will wait for the engines revs to climb before releasing the clutch. With a torque converter, the car will start to move forward as soon as the brake is released, regardless of how much throttle is applied. Hence more "seamless". But there are ways to work around this with DCT, by slighly tapping the gas pedal just before accelerating to get the clutch to engage, and then roll onto the throttle for a smoother launch. Once the clutch is engaged, the S55 is way more responsive to throttle input than the B48 - Period .

If the OP is driving his DCT like any other automatic, his perceptions might be true. But having very recently (two weeks ago) driven a 330i xDrive 8AT loaner for two days, I can attest my DCT M4, when properly driven, is in no way slower than the the 330i.
OK, probably semantics - but I would postulate that there's no way to drive an M4 "properly" in slow and heavy traffic - period.

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      07-30-2017, 05:59 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycaudioman View Post
I know this post will elicit some harsh flaming, but it is about psychology and so I actually look forward to the responses. I recently brought my M4 in for the 1200 mile service and was given a 330 loaner. As you may know, that engine is a tiny 4-cylinder.

But surprisingly, in some way, around town it felt faster than my M4. I am not by any means saying it is objectively faster - it is not obviously - but by seat of the pants and effort level to get up to around-town speed it was snappy in a way the M4 does not feel.

Since the 330 is not faster objectively by any means, I have some theories here:

1. The 330 feels faster because it is super quiet. The power just comes on unexpectedly from 0 up to 30/40 MPH. Sounds and feels effortless.

2. The automatic transmission crawl that starts when you lift your foot off the brake (compared to the DCT not being engaged) gives an impression of the car pulling forward earlier.

3. The M4 transmission gearing or settings (I am usually in Sport with the transmission in the middle setting) affects the feel.

Again, feedback is most appreciated, especially from anyone else who had the odd feeling of getting in a 330 loaner and saying "this feels zippy."
Its not and so there are only two explanations: (1) your M car is jacked up and needs a reflash or warranty work; or (2) your a negative person that for some odd reason just looking for something else to complain about so your perception is skewed.

I guess more of a (2) based on previous posts, but holy cow is this a funny thread reading some trying to make sense out of something nonsensical. The ONE thing I can truly say the F8Xs have going for them is an incredibly linear, flat torque curve that has a very strong pull from very low rpms to deep in the rev range. Take it out of efficient mode, remove head from butt and enjoy.

Last edited by 996ttelise; 07-30-2017 at 06:11 AM..
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      07-30-2017, 08:48 PM   #47
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DCT has to slip a clutch off the line.
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      07-31-2017, 04:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by M4Now! View Post
I'll buy the tranny differences, but also bet you drive it differently. I've had 330 loaners too, and you get used to giving it way more throttle off the line. If I gave my M that much throttle it would light up the tires - so think you get used to driving more smoothly in the M.

Also, if you're driving the 330 in auto mode, the tranny will pick the best gear for you. In MT mode in the M, if you're just cruising you're probably in a taller gear than optimal for acceleration.

Cheers
^This.

You mash the gas on lower powered loaners. You tend to not mash the gas all the time on an M cruising around town, it would be too ridiculous.
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      07-31-2017, 10:16 PM   #49
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Being 6MT old dudes in Camry's take me off the line all the time. Those same guys go home, tell the wife how they smashed a M3 today during rush hour and probably find a way to get a little action later. I think of it as my civic duty. So yes a 330 around town probably feels a bit peppier to me as a result, hell my wife's MDX feels downright giddy when I mash the gas off the line, but I also know doing the same in the M likely excites lots of wheel spin and curses from my neighbors (it's a frickin orange M3 after all) so I take things a bit slower about town and save the hooliganism for the track.
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      08-01-2017, 10:05 AM   #50
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Automatics Rule in Traffic

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyMack View Post
Being 6MT old dudes in Camry's take me off the line all the time. Those same guys go home, tell the wife how they smashed a M3 today during rush hour and probably find a way to get a little action later. I think of it as my civic duty. So yes a 330 around town probably feels a bit peppier to me as a result, hell my wife's MDX feels downright giddy when I mash the gas off the line, but I also know doing the same in the M likely excites lots of wheel spin and curses from my neighbors (it's a frickin orange M3 after all) so I take things a bit slower about town and save the hooliganism for the track.
I doubt if those old guys generally even know what an M car is, so no bragging. The thing is, an M driver rowing a 6-speed will tend to be slower than any number of automatics (including granny in the Buick), because the M driver will value smoothness, especially with passengers aboard. If your passengers tend to nod with each shift, then you're doing it wrong. If those passengers are your friends, they will then ride you without mercy at every botched shift, which is what friends are for.

What you do with the six-speed car is take off at whatever level of acceleration that is normal for the situation, but you will begin tapering off the gas just before the shift, make the shift, and then taper back up with the gas until you're back at your desired acceleration, resulting in around a two-second gap in "normal" acceleration, or even a little more. Result? Grandpa/granny in the Camry/Buick kicks your ass, because they don't have to taper off the gas for two seconds around each lazy shift. The torque converter and cone clutches take car of smoothness.

It used to be that stick drivers could console themselves with the fact that, given a little skill, they were consistently faster in a race/on track than their automatic brethren.

No more. The manufacturers/developers of traditional torque converter/sun-and-planetary-geared boxes have struck back with nine and ten-speed offerings that are fast as hell. Everywhere. Often better mileage, as well.

Sigh.

It's an ugly world when you are clearly disadvantaged if you insist on rowing your own.

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      08-01-2017, 01:03 PM   #51
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I just picked up a 340i MSport xDrive loaner, I was surprised how different the steering and brakes feel, not in a good way. It made me appreciate my M3ís seats too. I will say the 340i feels pretty smooth at 90ish mph where you can feel the road surface imperfections more in my M3.
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      08-03-2017, 10:05 PM   #52
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My car is slow as F compared to others I drive. Mainly because I'm tuned, and car will either spin, or traction control kicks in, once I hook though I am off like a rocket. My old 2.5 z4 feels faster than my M3 around town. I could flat foot that bitch and not lose traction...but yes I agree whenever I get into a loaner or rental I immediately think my car is slow.
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      08-05-2017, 05:59 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 04cobra View Post
My car is slow as F compared to others I drive. Mainly because I'm tuned, and car will either spin, or traction control kicks in, once I hook though I am off like a rocket. My old 2.5 z4 feels faster than my M3 around town. I could flat foot that bitch and not lose traction...but yes I agree whenever I get into a loaner or rental I immediately think my car is slow.
Your problem is nothing that a set of 305s on the back wouldn't fix.

Seriously - of all the mods I've done on my car (and there are many) getting more rubber is the best.
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      08-05-2017, 08:11 PM   #54
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This thread is nonsense.

OP's car is messed up or traction control is killing the fun.

Let's be real here, if you took an M3 dyno and compared it to the 330 at any RPM, the wheel HP, torque and well anything at any RPM would be night/day.

I had a 330 loaner last month while the beast was at the dealership and the absolute last thought I had was, wow, you know this 248 HP 4 cylinder is quicker than my car.

You all realize the M3/4 makes 250 HP at the wheels at 3,000 RPM right? Yes, this car makes more power at the wheels at a measly 3K RPM than the 330i makes at the crank in total.

Last edited by neilum; 08-06-2017 at 10:14 AM..
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      08-05-2017, 09:44 PM   #55
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I currently have a 330 loaner and it takes off smoother because of traction. I tried merging onto highway and it was slow af lmao
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      08-07-2017, 08:16 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilum View Post
This thread is nonsense.

OP's car is messed up or traction control is killing the fun.

Let's be real here, if you took an M3 dyno and compared it to the 330 at any RPM, the wheel HP, torque and well anything at any RPM would be night/day.

I had a 330 loaner last month while the beast was at the dealership and the absolute last thought I had was, wow, you know this 248 HP 4 cylinder is quicker than my car.

You all realize the M3/4 makes 250 HP at the wheels at 3,000 RPM right? Yes, this car makes more power at the wheels at a measly 3K RPM than the 330i makes at the crank in total.
Do you have a reading disorder?

The only one talking about racing in this string is you.

It's torque converter vs DCT at low throttle, tough guy. Try reading it again.
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      08-07-2017, 12:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Do you have a reading disorder?

The only one talking about racing in this string is you.

It's torque converter vs DCT at low throttle, tough guy. Try reading it again.
Holy smokes, someone off their meds again?
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      08-17-2017, 12:27 AM   #58
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Learn how to drive!

That mini van /330i or whatever can't do 0-60 like an F8X.

Here is what I feel is the biggest issue. Stop racing any car while on MAX AC.
IT KILLS RESPONSE TIME AND HP.

"Owe my car in the summer feels slow, should it be warranted?"

- no it's called summer and running AC stupid.
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      08-17-2017, 12:29 AM   #59
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It's not slower. Take off all traction control in the city with bumps all over and then see what happens, but keep your car straight please.
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      08-17-2017, 11:56 AM   #60
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I've had a couple F80s and an F30 328i as well as an X3 28i... I noticed the 28i cars, when in Sport Plus had extremely sensitive throttle response .. which is why it "felt fast" ... it went from the proverbial 0-100 in a split second ... it always felt jerky and uncomfortable to me so i hated it.
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      02-12-2021, 07:53 PM   #61
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I will just add my two cents here.

While I sent my F83 to service, I got a G20 3 series loaner. Around town it does feel Ďfasterí. Using its sport display, I saw the acceleration jumps to ~0.6g the moment I floor the gas and then decreases to ~0.4g. My Laptimer on the other hand shows that in around town driving, my F83 typically registers 1/5 throttle and when accelerating ~0.3-0.4g. There is typically a half second lag between throttle and the car starting moving.

I think this shows that a few reasons discussed in this thread all contribute to the the observed feeling:

The DCT vs ZF 8-speed difference makes 330iís power feels more instantaneous.

330iís body rolling/weight shift under hard acceleration might partially account for the initially large acceleration felt but they donít quite contribute to getting the vehicle moving.

Driving M4 around town makes us very conservative on applying the throttle whereas on a 330i, it feels more safe and less noticeable to floor the gas. (And also more throttle is needed for 330i in usual traffic; just imagine applying 1/5 all the time, the car would hold up traffic too much.)

Overall 330i is an excellent DD that pretends to be sporty-in itís core itís a quiet, very comfortable car with some cool technology, whereas M4 is a sport car in its core that is daily drivable to some extent.
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      02-13-2021, 09:17 PM   #62
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Has anyone heard from the OP over the last 5 years? I just want to know if he’d kicked his drug habit
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      02-13-2021, 10:04 PM   #63
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This is simple.

330i loaner especially x drive you can go at 1/2 pedal to WOT and hookup and go, make no noise, smooth as hell, light. It feels like it pulls hard.

On the other end i drive my M4 at 10% pedal putting around town, if i go half pedal in first and second i might induce alot of wheel spin and also stress myself out. If i go WOT i will end up in someone's lawn.

Driving the 330i near it's limits in the city is definitely faster than driving an M4 at 1/10.

It isn't just a FEELING. It's reality, the loaner is FASTER around town, for the simple fact that you can drive it fast without worrying about dying.

I genuinely fear going WOT in my GTS tuned M4 in anything below 3rd gear, so i never do it and i actually end up driving slower than mashing the pedal in my father's acura ilx which will never step out on me and which i also have no mechanical sympathy for.
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      02-15-2021, 05:47 PM   #64
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gearing, engine, tune.

my 335 felt quicker around town because it has a tiny turbo that spools quicker and an 8 speed auto. But hustle it on a back road and you will easily see the difference between a 3 series and M4.

this is why people feel that teslas are so fast. you are at peak torque with awd all the time. you dont have to work for anything.
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      02-25-2021, 03:04 PM   #65
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Recently had a 330 x drive loaner while my M3 was in for service and it felt pretty similar to what people have said. Brake boosting off the line, with traction control off and in the most sporty settings really increases the acceleration off the line (and shifts), and is faster than my car could ever be (6 speed) in most situations below highway speeds. Every other part of the car feels so much different compared to my car; it's actually pretty impressive considering they're both the same chassis underneath. It's pretty similar with my wife's SQ5. It's got lots of traction, a quick spooling turbo and lightening fast shifts and on an impromptu traffic light race, I was seeing her taillights until about 50mph when I started to go past her, but then I was already speeding and had to slow down.
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      02-27-2021, 09:48 PM   #66
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Recently returned a 330i. Itís a little zippy, but I donít find it fast at all. No comparison to an f80
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