Considering a GTS, questions...

[Parabolica]

Hey all,

I'm considering the GTS along with a couple of Porsche options. My questions are below:

1- Looks like many of these cars are now out of warranty. Any issues that I should be aware of or that I should check during a PPI? Looks like extended factory warranties are quite pricey.

2- How does the car feel overall? Does it feel like a special vehicle? I know this is subjective. Just trying to get an idea. I am also looking at a GT4 but to me it's really not that special. My number one choice is a GT3 but the pricing may be out of my range.

3- I have a MPE on my F80. Is that transferable to the GTS or is it not necessary?

[4play]

1 - the F80/2 is pretty reliable actually. Most people have barely driven their GTS, so you will probably be getting a low mileage car that won't need anything major for a long time.

As best as I know, I have the highest mileage one in the world (just under 37k miles) and it runs like a top. Nothing major, just fluid changes and spark plugs. No water injection issues like some of the owners with less frequently used cars.

2 - I have actually never driven a base M4 (M2 Comp is the closest) and came from Civic Type R / Audi RS4. It feels special. The interior, startup, general first impressions are that it is a special car. Personally, I like a 991 GT3 with carbon buckets a bit more for that "specialness", but the GTS is not far off at all.

3 - Stock GTS exhaust is steel to the back box (which is titanium like the MPE), but has a different back box design and better weld quality than MPE. MPE would be a significant downgrade.

[786]

I just went through the same process considering various Porsches etc. and bought a GTS. My last two cars were Porsches in fact.

1. Check the water injection, valve block can go bad and BMW made a revised part denoted by a ‘-2’. Other than that they’re pretty reliable, enough so that I didn’t bother getting an extended warranty. Nothing else really expensive to go wrong so I wouldn’t worry.

2. Feels amazing and really special. Everything about it feels special, from the moment you fire it up. The steering, damping, dynamics, all expertly judged. It’s a really fun car to drive even at legal speeds and everything it does just feels natural. It doesn’t bite or do anything you don’t expect, just reacts to your inputs. Rear end can be pretty mobile but very intuitive and easy to catch, it’s a pointy car (which I prefer) so take care in the wet. I looked at a GT4 as well but besides the gear shift nothing felt special about that car. It was slow, cramped, and just felt boring. Assuming you’re also looking at a 991.1 GT3, beware engine issues on those. They’re definitely not resolved. And it doesn’t feel special under 5k rpm, you have to really wring it’s neck to get to the fun zone. Once there it sounds glorious, but in street driving doesn’t feel as fast or wieldy because it has no torque. I didn’t think it was worth $50k more than a GTS. Also, with all the details the GTS has (cage, cf doors w/ door pulls, lightweight seats, KW 3-ways, full titanium exhaust, oled tails, cf everywhere etc.) it gave me the same feeling of specialness I got when driving my buddies GT3RS, it’s on that level of special/cool in my book. Regular GT3 seems a bit boring afterwards. It’s also fairly rare so you're not likely to run into another.

3. No way, stock GTS exhaust way better and sounds so awesome.

[Darth One]

Reliability - agree with the above, my water injection has been Infuriating at times but everything else is solid.

Specialness - Does your F80 feel special to you? If so, you're likely to feel the GTS to be even more so. But the flaws of the platform are not fixed by the GTS treatment, so if there's stuff you don't like about the F80, they won't go away with the GTS (unless the flaw is you want more power)

[Gomeler]

1 - water injection as others have covered.

2 - It is a gussied up F82. That being said the car is quite entertaining to drive, with numerous beautiful and neat details, if you like race-car inspired stuff. The knuckles are hidden gems. The hood weave makes popping it a treat. The exhaust with the baffles open is easily the best sounding OEM S55 exhaust setup. The 3-way suspension has enough compliance in it that driving on the street isn't spine compressing. With aftermarket buckets + harnesses, the car is a delight on the track.

3 - Don't bother, the GTS specific exhaust is fantastic.


This was me: the GT3RS was appealing and preferable, but the $170k used tag was too much at the time. The GT3 was a compromise, at $120k, but then there's the GT4! On paper it sounds right. You drive the GT4, and find the experience to be very uninspiring compared to its GT3 sibling.

I don't regret buying a M4GTS, but long-term I see it complimenting or being replaced by a GT3RS in my garage. I'll hold onto the M4GTS as long as it is financially possible, I'm crossing my fingers it has stabilized in price.

[4play]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

This was me: the GT3RS was appealing and preferable, but the $170k used tag was too much at the time. The GT3 was a compromise, at $120k, but then there's the GT4! On paper it sounds right. You drive the GT4, and find the experience to be very uninspiring compared to its GT3 sibling.

I don't regret buying a M4GTS, but long-term I see it complimenting or being replaced by a GT3RS in my garage. I'll hold onto the M4GTS as long as it is financially possible, I'm crossing my fingers it has stabilized in price.

With you on your postscript. I find myself looking more and more at 991.1 RS (still at $150k+), 650S/570S ($130k), and Deman 4.5L GT4s (GT4 cost + $30k). Also a bit curious about AMG GT-Rs, as those have gotten quite cheap and are immensely quick for the price (<$120k for a very low mileage example, but they are heavy).

Hopefully M4 GTS values start to creep up a bit and bonus season is good this year

[Gomeler]

For better or worse I want something with a high-revving NA engine to compliment my '04 STI and GTS, two engines that generate a good bit of their power through boost. I wish I could get behind the GT350R, sat in a few GT350s, beat on one in a canyon, and while the engine is sublime, the interior/exterior just didn't do it for me. The C8 Z06 with a rumored flat-plane V8 with a stupid-high redline might be another option, but I know I hate the C8 interior, and the rear 3/4 angles. Stupid Porsche ticks most of the boxes.

[Parabolica]

I'm Canada, the GTS is still commanding top dollar in my opinion:

GTS - $110-130k (DCT only)
GT4 - $110-120k (manual)
991.1 GT3 - $130-$150k (PDK only)
991.2 GT3 - $180k+ (manual)

Easily the best car of the bunch is the 991.2. The 991.1 comes with the 10 year engine warranty to offset the risk of failure but they should be done around 2024-2025.

I prefer the manual transmission but the dct is not a deal breaker for me.

Tough choice.

[4play]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

I'm Canada, the GTS is still commanding top dollar in my opinion:

GTS - $110-130k (DCT only)
GT4 - $110-120k (manual)
991.1 GT3 - $130-$150k (PDK only)
991.2 GT3 - $180k+ (manual)

Easily the best car of the bunch is the 991.2. The 991.1 comes with the 10 year engine warranty to offset the risk of failure but they should be done around 2024-2025.

I prefer the manual transmission but the dct is not a deal breaker for me.

Tough choice.

Heck, I'll sell you my GTS for $95k CAD!

Having bought several cars there, Canadian prices are very odd to me. Some cars are a substantial discount to US prices, and other cars (thinking of most Ferraris/exotics) are ridiculously overpriced compared to the US.

[Secret Chimp]

Yes, the car feels special to me. I only ever drove an M3 one time and it was on-track at Thermal in 2018. Compared to that, my GTS feels like a full on race car. The GTS has significantly stiffer suspension, increased NVH inside, and a lot less bells and whistles. The car vibrates at idle in a way that reminds me that this thing means business. The 1/2 roll cage can be seen in the rear view mirror, a constant reminder that this thing is ready to roll onto a track and dominate. The exhaust noise, burbles and pops, though a bit juvenile, make for a fun soundtrack. The performance, I just can't get over how much car @$75k gets you with the GTS. It feels sort of like I lucked into the German performance bargain of the year. Once the news gets out, these things won't be this cheap ever again.

Things to look out for...One thing not mentioned here is the billet uprights on the front suspension. This is a GTS-specific part ($$$) and they have been known to crack. As others have mentioned, the water injection systems are failing on cars with low miles (including the one on my car). If you find a car with the carbon wheels, make sure the inner barrel isn't scored from road debris getting trapped between the brake caliper and the wheel. The 2-piece front splitter is pretty low. If you live in an area with poor road surfaces and steep driveways, you will want to run the car at the street road height, or be ready to replace the splitter every couple of years.

As an aside, as I read the posts around here, I get the feeling that we are all 911 GT3 owners in waiting. lol

[Maitre_Absolut]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

I'm Canada, the GTS is still commanding top dollar in my opinion:

GTS - $110-130k (DCT only)
GT4 - $110-120k (manual)
991.1 GT3 - $130-$150k (PDK only)
991.2 GT3 - $180k+ (manual)

Easily the best car of the bunch is the 991.2. The 991.1 comes with the 10 year engine warranty to offset the risk of failure but they should be done around 2024-2025.

I prefer the manual transmission but the dct is not a deal breaker for me.

Tough choice.

My choice would be GT4 but a 2020 718. There are 16 available brand new at dealers as low as 137k right now, no waiting lists or mark up. There price delta vs used makes it a no brainer.

And why GT4? Just because you already have an F80 M3, difference will be marginal (while still large, its not a completely different car). There are so many cars out there and so little time to experience them all. I will never buy the same car, ie not even a different generation, just like I will never vacation at the same place twice...

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by 786

I just went through the same process considering various Porsches etc. and bought a GTS. My last two cars were Porsches in fact.



2. Feels amazing and really special. Everything about it feels special, from the moment you fire it up. The steering, damping, dynamics, all expertly judged. It’s a really fun car to drive even at legal speeds and everything it does just feels natural. It doesn’t bite or do anything you don’t expect, just reacts to your inputs. Rear end can be pretty mobile but very intuitive and easy to catch, it’s a pointy car (which I prefer) so take care in the wet. I looked at a GT4 as well but besides the gear shift nothing felt special about that car. It was slow, cramped, and just felt boring. Assuming you’re also looking at a 991.1 GT3, beware engine issues on those. They’re definitely not resolved. And it doesn’t feel special under 5k rpm, you have to really wring it’s neck to get to the fun zone. Once there it sounds glorious, but in street driving doesn’t feel as fast or wieldy because it has no torque. I didn’t think it was worth $50k more than a GTS. Also, with all the details the GTS has (cage, cf doors w/ door pulls, lightweight seats, KW 3-ways, full titanium exhaust, oled tails, cf everywhere etc.) it gave me the same feeling of specialness I got when driving my buddies GT3RS, it’s on that level of special/cool in my book. Regular GT3 seems a bit boring afterwards. It’s also fairly rare so you're not likely to run into another.
.

Completely disagree...I drove an M4 GTS and didn't like it at all. Going from an F80 and to that didn't seem all that worthwhile. Not that I care that much, but the M4 GTS looks like a regular M3 with aftermarket parts, vs a purpose built car that came from the factory that way. I ended up buying a 991.1 GT3 a few months ago and have zero regrets.

The car is not "torqueless". Yes, the peak torque is up there, but the powerband is way more linear than than just about any turbo car...but it never feels slow in any gear.

I bought the GT3 specifically because it felt special at ANY speed. The steering feel, the exhaust sound, the way the car buzzes, engine clacks/clicks, gear whine...all of it just makes you realize you're not in a normal car..all while you're going 30 mph.

[786]

Originally Posted by 4play

Also a bit curious about AMG GT-Rs, as those have gotten quite cheap and are immensely quick for the price (<$120k for a very low mileage example, but they are heavy).

These are becoming a real value, under $100 would be really interesting but might not be different enough to warrant the second garage space.

Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut

My choice would be GT4 but a 2020 718. There are 16 available brand new at dealers as low as 137k right now, no waiting lists or mark up. There price delta vs used makes it a no brainer.

I'd drive one before you go too far down that rabbit hole. Was a big let down for me. Boring.

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Completely disagree...I drove an M4 GTS and didn't like it at all. Going from an F80 and to that didn't seem all that worthwhile. Not that I care that much, but the M4 GTS looks like a regular M3 with aftermarket parts, vs a purpose built car that came from the factory that way. I ended up buying a 991.1 GT3 a few months ago and have zero regrets.

The car is not "torqueless". Yes, the peak torque is up there, but the powerband is way more linear than than just about any turbo car...but it never feels slow in any gear.

I bought the GT3 specifically because it felt special at ANY speed. The steering feel, the exhaust sound, the way the car buzzes, engine clacks/clicks, gear whine...all of it just makes you realize you're not in a normal car..all while you're going 30 mph.

You're not biased at all right? What did you dislike about the GTS besides looks?

I consider 324 lb-ft @ 6250 rpm torqueless, and the car feels gutless under 5k rpm to me. It's only fun above that and you're in 'lose your license' territory. Not usable unless you track all the time. And the engine issues are not resolved, really put me off. I don't care if it has a 10 yr warranty, 2024-2025 is not that far away. And as you bring up looks, I think the 991.2 makes the 991.1 look really dated.

It just didn't excite me as much as it did you apparently, and that's fine. To me, the GTS feels special at any speed. And the massive torque allows a lot of fun at legal speeds, with tons of mini slides to correct etc. GT3 didn't give me that fun feeling, it felt too serious and that it would rather be on a track than sliding around some backroads. To each his own.

[4play]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Completely disagree...I drove an M4 GTS and didn't like it at all. Going from an F80 and to that didn't seem all that worthwhile. Not that I care that much, but the M4 GTS looks like a regular M3 with aftermarket parts, vs a purpose built car that came from the factory that way. I ended up buying a 991.1 GT3 a few months ago and have zero regrets.

The car is not "torqueless". Yes, the peak torque is up there, but the powerband is way more linear than than just about any turbo car...but it never feels slow in any gear.

I bought the GT3 specifically because it felt special at ANY speed. The steering feel, the exhaust sound, the way the car buzzes, engine clacks/clicks, gear whine...all of it just makes you realize you're not in a normal car..all while you're going 30 mph.

Eh, I have a pretty good amount of seat time in a 991.1 GT3. If they were the same price as a GTS, I would pick the 991.1, but not for 1.5x the price or more, which is how the market currently prices them.

Compared to the GTS, the GT3 is quite torqueless. Peak wheel torque is around 285 lbft, whereas the M4 GTS is around 430 lbft. That's a 50% increase.

Curious if you actually drove the GTS hard (on track or above 8/10ths) or just drove it around a test drive loop from a dealership? Around town, it's basically what you described - a hotted up M4. Pushed harder, it is much, much faster.

[fanatic1]

Just wow!

https://apple.news/AQuo2VinYQZKNVngf_1D5rg

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by 4play

Eh, I have a pretty good amount of seat time in a 991.1 GT3. If they were the same price as a GTS, I would pick the 991.1, but not for 1.5x the price or more, which is how the market currently prices them.

Compared to the GTS, the GT3 is quite torqueless. Peak wheel torque is around 285 lbft, whereas the M4 GTS is around 430 lbft. That's a 50% increase.

Curious if you actually drove the GTS hard (on track or above 8/10ths) or just drove it around a test drive loop from a dealership? Around town, it's basically what you described - a hotted up M4. Pushed harder, it is much, much faster.

First..sorry if this is going to go OT..but..after owning a tuned F80, I'm quite aware of the torque difference, but give me the 9,000 RPM sound track and linear powerband over the vacuum cleaner that is the S55. Just personal preference. It's not like the GT3 is a slow car by any stretch and I'm personally done "chasing numbers".

I drove the GTS hard-ish, but I'm not a track day guy at all..just a guy who wants to drive on empty back roads and enjoy my own skill level and the car under me. The GT3 does that way better. Plus, I bought mine for a little under $100K during the early pandemic months when the economy crashed so I didn't spend that much more than I would have to buy a GTS.

And I love not having to worry about damaging a front splitter on speed bumps and driveways (nose lift FTW).

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by 786

These are becoming a real value, under $100 would be really interesting but might not be different enough to warrant the second garage space.



I'd drive one before you go too far down that rabbit hole. Was a big let down for me. Boring.



You're not biased at all right? What did you dislike about the GTS besides looks?

I consider 324 lb-ft @ 6250 rpm torqueless, and the car feels gutless under 5k rpm to me. It's only fun above that and you're in 'lose your license' territory. Not usable unless you track all the time. And the engine issues are not resolved, really put me off. I don't care if it has a 10 yr warranty, 2024-2025 is not that far away. And as you bring up looks, I think the 991.2 makes the 991.1 look really dated.

It just didn't excite me as much as it did you apparently, and that's fine. To me, the GTS feels special at any speed. And the massive torque allows a lot of fun at legal speeds, with tons of mini slides to correct etc. GT3 didn't give me that fun feeling, it felt too serious and that it would rather be on a track than sliding around some backroads. To each his own.

No, I'm not really biased- I've owned every generation of M3 and was planning on just upgrading to a G80..until I saw it. I've in general been a big fan of the brand, but am not a fan of the direction BMW has gone.

991.2 vs 991.1 looks, I kind of agree, and I kind of disagree. I like some angles of the 991.2 but I think the 991.1 is smoother looking in some ways. I think that to non-car and non-Porsche people, they all look the same anyway. I think the my Sakhir Orange M3 was in many ways the better looking car (F80 is the best looking M3 ever IMHO).

Having to work to slide the GT3 on public roads...that's not how I drive anyway, but the aero and the crazy wide Cup 2's probably also play a role in the fact that the GT3 is hard to break loose.

[786]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

No, I'm not really biased- I've owned every generation of M3 and was planning on just upgrading to a G80..until I saw it. I've in general been a big fan of the brand, but am not a fan of the direction BMW has gone.

991.2 vs 991.1 looks, I kind of agree, and I kind of disagree. I like some angles of the 991.2 but I think the 991.1 is smoother looking in some ways. I think that to non-car and non-Porsche people, they all look the same anyway. I think the my Sakhir Orange M3 was in many ways the better looking car (F80 is the best looking M3 ever IMHO).

Having to work to slide the GT3 on public roads...that's not how I drive anyway, but the aero and the crazy wide Cup 2's probably also play a role in the fact that the GT3 is hard to break loose.

You make some good points. I’m not a fan of the direction BMW is going either. I also started out looking to get a G8X but, like you, I saw it...then I read it was 500lbs heavier with the same power... I want my cars to feel really special and exciting because I only get time to drive them on the weekends. GTS does exactly that and I’ve no regrets buying one.

I like 991.1 front and 991.2 rear. For some reason the 991.1 rear dates the car for me. But I don’t like 991.2 front and it feels like they couldn’t top the 991.1 but felt they had to do something different. Definitely these nuances only appear to car people, to non-car people a 911 is a 911. Agree F80 is the high water mark for M3s.

I’ve got a fair amount of seat time in a 991.1 GT3, I think it’s the wide tires coupled with the engine weight in the rear giving such good traction. It’s ideal for a track setting but for roads you need a bit of yaw at legal speeds to have fun, otherwise the car feels a bit inert imo. But that’s just personal preference, I like pointy cars with loose rears, makes them a lot more fun to corral. And honestly, it’s just the way I drive because this isn’t an inherent trait of the GTS. It just does what it’s told, that’s what I love about it. Very very natural car to drive. You don’t get a Ring time faster than a CGT without having outstanding balance.

With the GT3, I think Porsche designed the powerband to be linear of course, but also they put the torque high up the rev range to make the car more accessible to more people. If a powerful rear-engined rwd car had a lot of torque down low it could catch people out and you can’t fight physics forever. Exactly why the GT2 is called the “Widowmaker”. The GT3 is a lot more benign and doesn’t bite in the same way a GT2 would. It’s a great car really, winding it out above 5k rpm is glorious. It’s almost worth the price of entry for the sound alone, but I still don’t think it’s worth $50k more than a GTS for driving thrills. Especially as the motor can pop at anytime. If their used prices were more comparable though it might have been worth a punt. Anyway, enjoy the GT3 man, there are no losers here.

[Parabolica]

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Just wow!

https://apple.news/AQuo2VinYQZKNVngf_1D5rg

Yeah the 992 GT3 is going to be awesome. I wish I had the dough and of course connections to get my hands on one.

[786]

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Just wow!

https://apple.news/AQuo2VinYQZKNVngf_1D5rg

Pretty awesome. And if it gets the Speedster’s engine with ITBs as rumored should be even more special. Looking forward to the full reveal and I’m sure someone I know will get one.

Edit: it is getting the Speedster’s engine per AP

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...03bhp-flagship

[mmic77]

Sorry to say that but after the S55 I don’t miss the torque in my GT4. Car is much lighter and for me it feels special. Maybe its an european thing were the roads are more twisty but I could not care less about low end grount.

[786]

Originally Posted by mmic77

Sorry to say that but after the S55 I don’t miss the torque in my GT4. Car is much lighter and for me it feels special. Maybe its an european thing were the roads are more twisty but I could not care less about low end grount.

You have a point about the twisty roads, I've been to Germany many times and the roads are excellent there. We definitely don't have twisty roads like that where I live.

The GT4 I drove had a great gear shift and nice balance, it did feel light, but there were no fireworks to that engine. And without the fun roads you mention, the car was really pretty boring around town to me. These cars are all at the pointy end of the grid so it's just personal preference, but I like a challenge and something to tame. The Porsche GT cars have a nice linear powerband but that also means you have to really rev them out to get moving and, unless you track all the time, it limits the road experience. The GTS has such a nice torque hit down low you can get the car moving around and feeling some yaw at legal speeds, which makes it really entertaining to drive. Otherwise, you're just chasing the power peaks all the time looking over your shoulder for cops. At least that was my experience in these cars on the street. I will say the GT3 makes it more rewarding with that amazing exhaust note up top.