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      09-17-2021, 06:38 AM   #1629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure View Post
Do these seals keep debris out or brake fluid in?

What happens when the caliper seals wear out/fail? Catastrophic?

How do I know if my seals are toasted?
There are dust seals and then piston seals.
dust seal: avoids water/salt/crap from contacting most of the piston or entering the piston/caliper channel
piston seal: avoids fluid from coming out

Piston seals do wear as they get hot/cold, but the piston usually seizes inside it's hole once the piston seal is sufficiently degraded.

A good rule of thumb for piston seals is they will either leak slightly or increase the resistance on the piston when they're getting to the end of their lives. So if you have trouble rotating the rotors it's most likely the seals that are dead
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      09-17-2021, 08:27 AM   #1630
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thanks. I've recently began experiencing significant resistance when compressing the pistons for pad changes. In fact, I had to borrow a piston spreader whereas I previously used my fingers. Does this suggest seal fatigue? Maybe just arthritis?

I really just want you to validate my desire for a BBK.
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      09-17-2021, 09:56 AM   #1631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure View Post
thanks. I've recently began experiencing significant resistance when compressing the pistons for pad changes. In fact, I had to borrow a piston spreader whereas I previously used my fingers. Does this suggest seal fatigue? Maybe just arthritis?

I really just want you to validate my desire for a BBK.
I bet those are the seals. They are easy enough to replace and you can upgrade them to the high temp seals.

However, I also understand the desire for nice shiny things! They make the world go round!
If you want a BBK, you may be better served by the AP 'street' kit they offer. I would not buy any of the race kits (PFC, BW-Alcon, AP Radical) for a car that's used as a daily in NYC/anywhere where it snows.
The AP Street kit has good performance but retains dust boots. You may also want to look at Stoptech kits which also retain dust boots... although at some point I'd prefer to use oem calipers with high temp seals, F+R girodiscs, PFC11 pads. In winter you just swap rotors to OEM and you're good to go
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      09-17-2021, 01:18 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure View Post
Maybe just arthritis?
This is the depressing shit I have to start asking myself as I get into my mid-40's. Is there something wrong with X, or am I just fcking old now?
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      09-17-2021, 04:22 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
This is the depressing shit I have to start asking myself as I get into my mid-40's. Is there something wrong with X, or am I just fcking old now?
thats the truth, sometimes you wake up and have to think what i do yesterday? why am i sore?
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      09-17-2021, 04:51 PM   #1634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure View Post
thanks. I've recently began experiencing significant resistance when compressing the pistons for pad changes. In fact, I had to borrow a piston spreader whereas I previously used my fingers. Does this suggest seal fatigue? Maybe just arthritis?

I really just want you to validate my desire for a BBK.
I bet those are the seals. They are easy enough to replace and you can upgrade them to the high temp seals.

However, I also understand the desire for nice shiny things! They make the world go round!
If you want a BBK, you may be better served by the AP 'street' kit they offer. I would not buy any of the race kits (PFC, BW-Alcon, AP Radical) for a car that's used as a daily in NYC/anywhere where it snows.
The AP Street kit has good performance but retains dust boots. You may also want to look at Stoptech kits which also retain dust boots... although at some point I'd prefer to use oem calipers with high temp seals, F+R girodiscs, PFC11 pads. In winter you just swap rotors to OEM and you're good to go
thank you. I've got Lime Rock and a two day event at WGI remaining for the season. Should I urgently get my seals replaced before those events?

Is this the one to purchase or is there a superior product?

https://racingbrake.com/bb-43bs

also, in the OEM caliper scenario, why do you advise against keeping the girodisc rotors on during the winter?

ty
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      09-17-2021, 05:04 PM   #1635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure View Post
thank you. I've got Lime Rock and a two day event at WGI remaining for the season. Should I urgently get my seals replaced before those events?

Is this the one to purchase or is there a superior product?

https://racingbrake.com/bb-43bs
That would be it. Very interesting that they offer stainless steel pistons like the AP/Alcon ones! Make sure to get the blue seals.

I would not urgently replace anything. If they were leaking yes, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Just see if they're leaking or not.
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      09-17-2021, 05:37 PM   #1636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle ben View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRLane View Post
Nope you won't see them as the slightest bit of material will cause the vibration. This exact scenario happened to me on my first track weekend and I was told it was warped rotors by my instructor which wasn't true. It's a common misdiagnosis.

The flex hone is cheap and easy. I'm 99.9% confident this will solve your issue. Going forward for track days get a track pad or if you're going to double duty consider a Ferodo 2500.

When you come into the paddock try not to touch the brakes. Pull into your spot and let the car come to rest in neutral then cut the engine. Don't use the parking brake or touch the brake pedal as the goal is keep the pads from clapping down and then sitting on a hot rotor.

Technically the parking brake is inside the rotor hat and isn't really an issue. But I think keeping hot metal from resting on hot metal is better practice. Just put the car in gear.

As pace picks up or you get sticker tires then explore BBK or at the very least dedicated track pads.

Well I used a flex hone and completely cleaned off my front rotors, and while the vibration has improved, it is still there. Also I noticed when my wheel was off, that when I spun the front disc, it would hang up on the brake pad at one spot on the disc, almost like the disc was warped. Pretty bummed that this didn't fix things. Also have some ferodo 1:11 front and rear pads arriving on Monday. I figure I'll install them and see if it helps with the vibration. If not it's looking like a ap front big brake kit for me, as I don't want to be replacing warped rotors after every couple of track days.
This is my first aftermarket "BBK" so take my comment for a grain of salt. I had the same vibrations when I installed my girodisc and Pagid RSL29's on my CCB rotors and I also thought my rotors were warped too. It was particularly noticeable at higher temperatures, but after my first track session the rattle was completely gone. Still scratching my head on what it was but my performance mechanic said that it's fine when I replicated the vibrations. He said it's what comes with this aggressive of a rotor. :

Last edited by Sh4d0w; 09-17-2021 at 08:47 PM..
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      09-17-2021, 07:31 PM   #1637
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shadow, does PFC actually make a race BBK for the F80?

I'm interested in a BBK as well but I believer you and others stated that the AP rotors do not last long so I'd prefer to go with PFC and then Alcon if PFC is not available.

what are your recommendations for a race BBK? my car is street driven infrequently in these later years of ownership so I don't believe that I'd suffer with a race BBK as you suggested earlier in the thread.
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      09-17-2021, 09:16 PM   #1638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaX PL View Post
shadow, does PFC actually make a race BBK for the F80?

I'm interested in a BBK as well but I believer you and others stated that the AP rotors do not last long so I'd prefer to go with PFC and then Alcon if PFC is not available.

what are your recommendations for a race BBK? my car is street driven infrequently in these later years of ownership so I don't believe that I'd suffer with a race BBK as you suggested earlier in the thread.
They do not, although we designed a bracket and were able to run the E9X kit on the F8X

Now I run full PFC on one car and full BW-Alcon on the other. At this point you can only buy the BW-Alcon new, so I'd get that.

Edit: you know, we get told we are 'whiny' about track brakes. I wondered why, as there are faster M3s than us. The other day a M3 friend sent his 1:58 WGI AIM data and the answer was right there: although 6 seconds slower, in every straight we reach higher speeds (no aero drag) and in every turn we have much lower minimum speeds (no aero benefit). I bet we're putting an extra 30-40% of energy into the brakes in each lap. I plan on opening a thread on this when I do the calcs.
At least this explains how our reality fits into the overall tribal knowledge in the forum.

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 09-17-2021 at 09:31 PM..
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      09-17-2021, 10:13 PM   #1639
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Iím running -3 camber with very little toe on Vorschlag plates. I just switched to Girodisc rotors on the front and will test over the weekend at PittRace.

For reference my best lap at VIR was 2.06, quick but not blindingly fast. Still doing ok brake wise, and with my alignment I got 24 heat cycles out of a set of Hoosiers, so wear is pretty good Iíd say. Street wear also seems adequate.

If you want to go faster, or significantly more than 6-7 weekends per year, BBK may start to make sense. I guess what Iím saying is that there are more ways to skin the cat, and your experience will greatly vary. But thatís good, people should experiment and find out what works for themÖ
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      09-17-2021, 11:08 PM   #1640
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Speaking of brakes I'm a strong believer of cooling. My e46 m3 has the vorshlag brake deflectors installed where they scoop up air and direct it to the braking system. It's really helped me get more life from my pads.
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      09-18-2021, 04:48 AM   #1641
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I've got a set a front Girodiscs arriving this week just as my track season is winding down.

Any reason to swap back to the OEM swiss cheese rotors for winter or can I just leave the girodiscs installed year round? The car is generally only used on weekends.

edit: answered my own question. Per AP website...

"...road salt and other gunk gets wedged between the hat and iron disc ring, and it is essentially impossible to remove short of taking the disc apart. The salt eats away at the aluminum hat, eventually flaking, chipping, etc. Again, this is a problem that will be encountered on ANY aftermarket big brake kit. Also, the same sort of things happen with the caliper brackets on just about ANY aftermarket BBK. They're almost all anodized aluminum."
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      09-18-2021, 09:31 AM   #1642
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Ok Guys, This week installed MCS 2 way Coilovers with remote (end links, bars, etc) 1st track day tomorrow. Updates to follow.

Replaced OEM EDC dampeners with MPHAS.
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      09-18-2021, 11:54 AM   #1643
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Originally Posted by VeloF1 View Post
Ok Guys, This week installed MCS 2 way Coilovers with remote (end links, bars, etc) 1st track day tomorrow. Updates to follow.

Replaced OEM EDC dampeners with MPHAS.
Interesting combo. I was told my MPHAS were a bit underdampened.
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      09-18-2021, 08:14 PM   #1644
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Interesting combo. I was told my MPHAS were a bit underdampened.
The MPHAS was definitely better than stock. And, nice for daily driver looking for upgrade. Yet, IMO the stock dampeners w/ MPHAS was a little underperforming with a heavier track car w/ a fair amount of horsepower. It worked good on track, not great though.
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      09-18-2021, 10:01 PM   #1645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloF1 View Post
Ok Guys, This week installed MCS 2 way Coilovers with remote (end links, bars, etc) 1st track day tomorrow. Updates to follow.

Replaced OEM EDC dampeners with MPHAS.
awesome, you will like them

Whats your spring rates/tire setup?
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      09-18-2021, 10:46 PM   #1646
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I give a definite thumbs up to my MCS 2WR after a couple track days, and makes street driving quite a bit more interesting, although my track settings are pretty insane on the freeway. I can catch just a little air a couple places because of how stiff everything is.

I was at F bump 11 rebound 13 (from full soft) and R bump 10 rebound 13. For street I'm at F bump 7 rebound 2, R bump 6 rebound 2

I also upgraded to the racingbrake high temp seals and boots I saw mentioned here. Trying to get a bit more life out of my OEM brakes for now. I somewhat wish I had gotten BBK already, but hit my comfortable budget limit for the year upgrading to MCS. Those things are not cheap.

Probably consider BBK once I get near end of life on my rotors. I'm also running carbotech XP12/10 which are crazy friendly to rotors so it might take a while to get there. I now daily drive the XP12/10 just because I am too lazy to change them back and forth all the time. Hell of a lot of squeal and dust but it beats changing brake pads all the time and the bite is addictive. I just chuckle to myself when pedestrians look in horror as they swivel their heads in my direction at my squealing. I think the folks in my cul-de-sac are annoyed too, lol
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      09-19-2021, 03:26 AM   #1647
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Track forum general chit chat

How are your high temp boots and seals working out?

Can you recommend a DIY to help me assess whether to outsource it?
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      09-19-2021, 07:22 AM   #1648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melanthius View Post
I give a definite thumbs up to my MCS 2WR after a couple track days, and makes street driving quite a bit more interesting, although my track settings are pretty insane on the freeway. I can catch just a little air a couple places because of how stiff everything is.

I was at F bump 11 rebound 13 (from full soft) and R bump 10 rebound 13. For street I'm at F bump 7 rebound 2, R bump 6 rebound 2

I also upgraded to the racingbrake high temp seals and boots I saw mentioned here. Trying to get a bit more life out of my OEM brakes for now. I somewhat wish I had gotten BBK already, but hit my comfortable budget limit for the year upgrading to MCS. Those things are not cheap.

Probably consider BBK once I get near end of life on my rotors. I'm also running carbotech XP12/10 which are crazy friendly to rotors so it might take a while to get there. I now daily drive the XP12/10 just because I am too lazy to change them back and forth all the time. Hell of a lot of squeal and dust but it beats changing brake pads all the time and the bite is addictive. I just chuckle to myself when pedestrians look in horror as they swivel their heads in my direction at my squealing. I think the folks in my cul-de-sac are annoyed too, lol
You may want to go way down on bump for the street.

I drive my 3WR MCS at 0 high and low speed compression. I don't touch rebound
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      09-19-2021, 12:08 PM   #1649
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Anyone on the fence for these upgrades, sold my MCS 1W and AP Essex BBK very quickly upon selling the car - for about 60% of new.
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      09-19-2021, 04:15 PM   #1650
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Question for everyone/anyone here: does anyone know of any F82 harness bars? Not a full roll cage, something that's bolt in like the BK bar for F80 (below). More curiosity than anything else, I'm thinking of adding some Sportster CSs in which case I'd like to run a harness and HANS just for safety. Maybe the easiest answer is those Schroth Quickfits?

https://www.bkauto.com/R_1205_BMW_F3...r_p/r-1205.htm
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