S55 vs. S65

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I really really reallllyyyy have to roll my eyes at some of this stuff. Let's get some history straight:

1. The S14, the engine that made the m3 come to life in the first place, was based off the m10/m88 and was based off a 6-cylinder with 2 cylinders chopped off. It was built from concept to prototype in TWO WEEKS and the first model was literally just a plate welded onto the gaping hole in the block of 2 cylinders removed.

That engine is at the heart of the m3 series and is still famed today.

2. The s52 in the e36 m3 was heavily based on the m52 with basically some special parts-bin stuff and some tuning.

It's an incredibly reliable, daily driven engine coming on 20 years worldwide. It was also developed quickly based upon an existing platform.

3. The S54 was an M50 evolved for M. More specialized tuning, more unique parts, special VANOS systems - but at heart was an iron block great engine based off an existing engine. The e46 was famous and an amazing new M vehicle

4. The s65 was the first m3 engine that was based off another M engine, which was based off a unique design - the S85. Nevertheless, at heart, the S65 was yet another existing BMW engine modified for use in an M application. This was a special engine, no doubt, but the M3's fame and glory was built on the backs of taking existing engines and improving upon them.

In many ways, the S55 is a cross between the s54 and the s65 - it is a unique block (closed deck, unique valvetronic system, etc.) based upon an existing platform. It is neither a tweaked s54 nor a whole new platform like the s65.

Bravo!

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by solstice

True, the same can said about the power numbers of a tuned N54 vs the S55. So, I think now more than ever it will be the character of the M engine that need to differentiate it from the standard engine. I think they achieved a good distance between them in terms of the 550 and the M5. The response and rev. happiness is significantly better in the M5. I expect the S55 to be quite a bit better than the M5 and put more distance between itself and especially tuned N54s than the M5 vs 550 which it will inevitably be heavily compared to.

Completely logical and what I was alluding to. Although, I think there is even more of a difference in the M3s engine than what's in the 335 than the current 550 and M5.

The performance gap is similar in raw numbers, but let's not get caught up on the engine only. The entire car, like the engine, is a big step up from the 'regular' model it shares most of it's lines with.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

The performance gap is similar in raw numbers, but let's not get caught up on the engine only. The entire car, like the engine, is a big step up from the 'regular' model it shares most of it's lines with.

Completely agree. This is the main reason I'm buying the new M car instead of for example the 335i. You get a meticulously factory tuned and tested "sports car" with all components selected and designed to balance each other. The engine is really just a part like any other to me this time around. I hope and expect it to be good enough no more, no less but I expect the overall package to be up to usual M3 excellence.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by solstice

Completely agree. This is the main reason I'm buying the new M car instead of for example the 335i. You get a meticulously factory tuned and tested "sports car" with all components selected and designed to balance each other. The engine is really just a part like any other to me this time around. I hope and expect it to be good enough no more, no less but I expect the overall package to be up to usual M3 excellence.

I agree!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

IRL the engine is 50% more thrilling than on paper and 100% more thrilling in everyday use than the 'exotic' V8 in the E9xM3.

Let me fix a clear error here...

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

IMO the engine is 50% more thrilling than on paper and 100% more thrilling in everyday use than the 'exotic' V8 in the E9xM3.

Funny also haven't you bashed folks for bashing the car who have not driven it. Now you can praise it as thrilling also without driving it?

There are plenty of others who can already conclude from just looking at the torque curve that there will be some significant loss in thrill.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I think it's also time to realize that they reached the point of diminishing returns at the s65 performance levels.
...
The most common complaints about the S65 were terrible fuel economy and poor low-end torque.

Do you mean to imply that the S65 had to be end of lifed based on it being impossible to make a revised S65, closely based on the existing one, that offers a higher redline, increased fuel efficiency, more torque (and more power which is what really matters)? That is absolutely not the case. Just look at the F430 -> F458, yeah, yeah "don't compare a BMW to a Ferrari", I can, will and do so appropriately all the time. BMW could have easily obtained this "triple crown" of improvements with a revised S65 including direct injection and an even higher compression ratio. They did not do so almost exclusively to save cost on the new engine.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Let me fix a clear error here...



Funny also haven't you bashed folks for bashing the car who have not driven it. Now you can praise it as thrilling also without driving it?

There are plenty of others who can already conclude from just looking at the torque curve that there will be some significant GAIN in thrill.

Let me correct that for YOU!



Please cut the Sheldonism, swamp. I had 2 M3s before my 1M and do trackdays and stuff.

I was talking about the 1M N54 engine, which I drive as a daily. Can't you read!?




Cheers
Robin

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Let me correct that for YOU!

Please cut the Sheldonism, swamp. I had 2 M3s before my 1M and do trackdays and stuff.

I was talking about the 1M N54 engine, which I drive as a daily. Can't you read!?

I did misunderstand your reference to the 1M not the M4 so sorry about that.

However, matters of opinion can't be definitively settled. You like Vette style power, I like Ferrari style power, simple as that and to each their own. I've driven the 1M hard and fast (but have not owned one nor driven it on a track). I find it incredibly boring compared to the M3 in a straight line. I've also owned and tracked all M3s less the E30. I've also taken my cars to the drag strip as well. I don't speak from simulation or theory not grounded in real life observation. I firmly stand by my last post whether or not you are referring to the 1M or M4 as they will be similar in character but clearly not in overall performance.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

We were talking about carprices here , beacause that's the topictitle and it's already getting annoying again because the subject has changed to the engine part . AGAIN. The same old song.

Fanboism, I have to get used to that stuff coming back in any thread...

Did we get off topic because YOU digressed to boast about the 1M engine...

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I did misunderstand your reference to the 1M not the M4 so sorry about that.

However, matters of opinion can't be definitively settled. You like Vette style power, I like Ferrari style power, simple as that and to each their own. I've driven the 1M hard and fast (but have not owned one nor driven it on a track). I find it incredibly boring compared to the M3 in a straight line. I've also owned and tracked all M3s less the E30. I've also taken my cars to the drag strip as well. I don't speak from simulation or theory not grounded in real life observation. I firmly stand by my last post whether or not you are referring to the 1M or M4 as they will be similar in character but clearly not in overall performance.

Come on, I'm the biggest Ferrari fan of them all, I visited the factory twice fgs.
And don't you dare compare 'Ferrari' to that S65 of yours.LOL. You are
totally missing the point with all your theories. Calling a 1M boring. LOL you've never drivin it the way it should. What's the speedlimit in California. Come on man. Please.

You're talking about drag strips? whahaha. Sheldonism. Cut the crap!

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Did we get off topic because YOU digressed to boast about the 1M engine...

WTH! Others(from your group) started it. Not me.

Anyway straight line performance is just on bit of the whole package. I'm more of a 'through the corners/bends' kind of guy. That's why I drive the car i drive and not an E9x M3. |Get it?

Swamp: Please go on talking about engines and stuff in other threads. Not here. Thank you very much


On topic: I guess the M3 in my country will start at 95000 euros.



Cheers
Robin

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Come on, I'm the biggest Ferrari fan of them all, I visited the factory twice fgs.
And don't you dare compare 'Ferrari' to that S65 of yours.LOL. You are
totally missing the point with all your theories. Calling a 1M boring. LOL you've never drivin it the way it should. What's the speedlimit in California. Come on man. Please.

You're talking about drag strips? whahaha. Sheldonism. Cut the crap!

If you can't recognize the shapes of the power and torque curves from the S65 being similar to and in some ways even superior to that of some common V8 Ferrari's that's not my problem. Also if you can't recognize that the 1M and M4 are radically different, also not my problem. Live in denial, fine with me.

The speed limit in CA has nothing to do with how fast one can quite safely enjoy a car. Also utter nonsense.

My point about drag strips is that I do MANY kinds of driving. I obviously appreciate M cars for their ability in the corners and I fully exploit that. I also enjoy going fast in a straight line, it is fun, period. No I don't at all regularly go to the drag strip. If you want to preach that an M car can only be enjoyed in the corners you're both wrong and acting elitist.

Time for you to cut the crap.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Glina

@ Technic. Watch video at 3:00 "M cars are not about engines. M cars are about chassis"

If I got what Chris is saying, he is saying that the engine is quite ordinary and that what makes the 1M are proper ///M car is essentially all the M3 bits

[iPhone vs Android]

S65 is the king, S55 is never going to be able to fill the gap. We are all getting the new car because we have to not because we want to. It is going to be extremely expensive to keep S65 out of warranty.

[duk]

Sorry I'd take the S65 GTS engine over the S55 any day.

S55 built on common engine line up as any other 3 series. =/

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by iPhone vs Android

S65 is the king, S55 is never going to be able to fill the gap. We are all getting the new car because we have to not because we want to. It is going to be extremely expensive to keep S65 out of warranty.

You don't have to do anything. There are other options from other marquees. You are free to leave BMW tomorrow.

[iPhone vs Android]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You don't have to do anything. There are other options from other marquees. You are free to leave BMW tomorrow.

Are you going to stop harassing me or are you going to get this thread locked as well?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by iPhone vs Android

Are you going to stop harassing me or are you going to get this thread locked as well?

Funny guy! I'm not the only one that calls you out (..members have been doing that since you started posting; should I find posts as proof to avoid a senseless rebuttal on your part?). You bring that on yourself.

But back to your statement, you truly aren't forced to stick with the brand and buy the new M3. There are many, many other options to choose from. Don't make it seem like you don't have a choice. After all, you could just keep your current M3, skip the F8X forums altogether, and head back to the E9X forums and chum it up over there.

[iPhone vs Android]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Funny guy! I'm not the only one that calls you out. You bring that on yourself.

But back to your statement, you truly aren't forced to stick with the brand and buy the new M3. There are many, many other options to choose from. Don't make it seem like you don't have a choice. After all, you could just keep your current M3, skip the F8X forums altogether, and head back to the E9X forums and chum it up over there.

I was 15 years old when I saw my first M car and that was a E30. I have never owned a car other than a BMW since that day and every since I got my first M 8 years ago, I cannot look at other cars with the same joy. BMWs have that simplistic, yet luxurious and European design that no other car has (I'm also a European living in U.S.), so I don't think that's going to happen.

I'm sorry, I'm here to stay. I'm extremely uneasy with letting my 8 cylinder go as I babied it since day 1, detailed it every other month (even in 30 degree weather), made sure I was present during every oil change and didn't get a drop of oil on the engine! I change my own oil every 5000 miles, tires, brake fluid, you name it. And I do these things not because I want to save, but because I don't want anyone other than me touching my car. That's how much I love this car. That being said, I know that keeping this car for more than 2-3 years from today is going to cost me an arm and a leg. I'm also a realist and I know I cannot fight with a company like BMW and I know them and the new technology will prevail.

Sad, but true.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by iPhone vs Android

I was 15 years old when I saw my first M car and that was a E30. I have never owned a car other than a BMW since that day and every since I got my first M 8 years ago, I cannot look at other cars with the same joy. BMWs have that simplistic, yet luxurious and European design that no other car has (I'm also a European living in U.S.), so I don't think that's going to happen.

I don't think I'll leave again unless it's for an upper level Porsche, and even then I will always have a special love for BMW ///M cars. I left the marquee once for Infiniti (..traded my '03 M3 for an '04 G35) and I regretted it within 3 months time. I was back in an '05 ZCP M3 in less than a year.

Originally Posted by iPhone vs Android

I'm sorry, I'm here to stay. I'm extremely uneasy with letting my 8 cylinder go as I babied it since day 1, detailed it every other month (even in 30 degree weather), made sure I was present during every oil change and didn't get a drop of oil on the engine! I change my own oil every 5000 miles, tires, brake fluid, you name it. And I do these things not because I want to save, but because I don't want anyone other than me touching my car. That's how much I love this car. That being said, I know that keeping this car for more than 2-3 years from today is going to cost me an arm and a leg. I'm also a realist and I know I cannot fight with a company like BMW and I know them and the new technology will prevail.

Sad, but true.

Look at it this way....


....in 4 years time, when everybody is raving about how the F8X is the 'last real ///M car', you won't worry so much about how the car makes power.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by iPhone vs Android

S65 is the king, S55 is never going to be able to fill the gap. We are all getting the new car because we have to not because we want to. It is going to be extremely expensive to keep S65 out of warranty.

Untrue

I'm getting it because it will be better in every measurable way than the e9x except sound.

It will be a performance beast and drive great under all conditions. Street and track.

Your reasons or decision may be different. To each their own. But not everyone prefers the s65 to the s55 in this application. I don't.

[iPhone vs Android]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Untrue

I'm getting it because it will be better in every measurable way than the e9x except sound.

It will be a performance beast and drive great under all conditions. Street and track.

You see sound is probably the most important thing for me. I don't track my cars and as long as they are "fast enough", I'm happy. I don't care if they do 60 mph in 3.9s vs 4.1s. I'm not going to time myself in a race track. I do care how the car sounds like when I downshift in a tunnel though. I hope the new car sounds good enough.