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      10-10-2016, 05:55 PM   #23
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Ummm.. I didn't come up with the Macan?

Furthermore, I'm not looking for a car to take to a track and beat the hell out of it. Considering the M2, it'd just have mixed feelings mixed feelings tracking a car I waited for for about a year. But that's just me

About the 997.1 / 328i idea (not even sure if you're mocking me with that one, but anyway):
997.1s are lovely cars, especially the classic pre-dfi-sound. But the "aerokit cup" is a little too much for me and the wings seems strange without the GT center exhaust. Plus you can't find cars with Porsche approved anymore. The 328i is certainly a nice car (had one as a loaner), but the sound just ruins it for me. Talking about regular F30s, the 340i would then be the only choice. Problem is though that resale value of "normal" cars (no M, RS, AMG) with big petrol engines is pretty weak over here. People love 330d's etc.

Last edited by daffyduck; 10-10-2016 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Typo
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      10-10-2016, 08:55 PM   #24
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You're right, others chose the Macan for you! My bad!

I was actually being dead serious about the 997 and F30 combo. I was thinking about doing a 997.1 TT instead of F80, but euro delivery was too compelling. I do still wonder about splitting into a "fun" car and a daily driver, rather than trying to do both with F80

Re the cupkit, I was kind of poking fun, since the photo aspect of M2 seemed to really appeal to you. With debadge, and aerokit, you might get a lot pictures of your "gt3"

I too waited a long time for my F80 (~8 months from order to US redelivery) They are definitely worth waiting for, regardless of whether or not you track. so many ways to enjoy the car
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      10-11-2016, 01:16 AM   #25
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I didn't know you where talking about 997.1TT when you said 997.1 Especially since the aerokit on the turbos was only a slightly bigger (fixed) rear wing, I think? That being said, same problem: rarely any cars from official dealers with low mileage and P-approved on the market (and I don't want to be the one replacing those turbines - even though the Metzger engines in general are said to be very robust!)

You got me wrong about photo aspect of the M2. Over here, people take photos of this car just for the unknown appearance and the sheer rarity of the thing. It's simply an unusual sight in the streets. By the way, over here no one turns his head for a Porsche (same applies to most AMGs & Ms btw), except for maybe a (loud! gotta be loud) lava orange 991RS.
Despite the fact that I think a 997 with aero won't be getting any attention anyway, I simply wouldn't put an aerokit on a Porsche to be confused with a GT3

Last edited by daffyduck; 10-11-2016 at 04:40 AM.
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      10-12-2016, 06:34 AM   #26
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Still wondering about how the passive suspension in a base F80 compares to the F87? I find the stock suspension of the M2 very nice and settled for the city as well as for twisty roads - not having any problems at all considering comfort.
What concerns me is that on one hand I sometimes hear people complaining about how the F87's setup isn't sporty enough (probably for track use..), on the other hand I read in this forum about F80 passive susp. being between adapt. sport and sport+ - and to hard for daily driving.
Has anyone driven both F87 and F80 with passive dampers and tell me something about it? Is the F80's base setup rougher than the F87 in terms of ride comfort?
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      10-12-2016, 07:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
Still wondering about how the passive suspension in a base F80 compares to the F87? I find the stock suspension of the M2 very nice and settled for the city as well as for twisty roads - not having any problems at all considering comfort.
What concerns me is that on one hand I sometimes hear people complaining about how the F87's setup isn't sporty enough (probably for track use..), on the other hand I read in this forum about F80 passive susp. being between adapt. sport and sport+ - and to hard for daily driving.
Has anyone driven both F87 and F80 with passive dampers and tell me something about it? Is the F80's base setup rougher than the F87 in terms of ride comfort?
My F80 was active, but the ones I test drove were passive. The F80's passive is between Sport and Sport+, and so is the M2. Roughly the same ride comfort.
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      10-12-2016, 08:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I've driven both... on a track...

Here are my simple take always... no need to go further unless you want to waste time.

BMW M2

Pros-

1) Feels Smaller
2) Much easier to drive at the limit.
3) Easier to live with track car if your abilities are limited.

BMW M3

Pros-

1) Far Faster
2) Far better interior
3) Far more capable track car (if your ability is up to par... chances are high they are not)
4) Far better street car due to size and power


Summary-

If you want a track car and have limited abilities, get the M2... for absolutely every other scenario... get an M3.

good day
I've driven both on track too and I have to say that the above is dead on accurate. Especially the bold part. This M3 is not a car to pretend you know how to drive in, the M2 will let you get away with pretending.
I have a tracked both. Agree with the above assessment. M3 is a phenomenal drivers car to drive on the track. For me there was no comparison between the two.
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      10-12-2016, 11:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KZEVO View Post
I have a tracked both. Agree with the above assessment. M3 is a phenomenal drivers car to drive on the track. For me there was no comparison between the two.
Track times from you guys would be nice. It would add some credibility
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      10-13-2016, 05:42 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal
Quote:
Originally Posted by KZEVO View Post
I have a tracked both. Agree with the above assessment. M3 is a phenomenal drivers car to drive on the track. For me there was no comparison between the two.
Track times from you guys would be nice. It would add some credibility
Sorry don't have track times to offer. My reference point is not what's faster (lap times) but what is more engaging and fun to drive and I preferred the m3 over the m2. I clearly remember when I got out of the m3 in the pits I was blown away by its performance, handling and how engaging it was to drive compared to the m2. I think m2 is a great car as it offers better traction off the line than the m3 but for me it stopped there. People say the m2 feels lighter than the m3 and I would agree with that on the road but on the track the m3 feels very different. To me it felt like a different car, more responsive, more engaging, precise to place into the apex, much faster acceleration. It is just a phenomenal car to drive and I really have started to appreciate it a lot more after tracking it vs as a DD. Hope this helps.
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      10-13-2016, 08:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Track times from you guys would be nice. It would add some credibility
Couple of points. Most track days are strictly not timed. You want same driver and same day times, which I can't provide as my track days were different days.

As a result I would recommend using the search (or Google) as there are a number of same day, same driver (pro shoe) times out there. Hockenheim is a great example. Using search will provide your requested credibility.
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      10-13-2016, 10:41 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KZEVO View Post
Sorry don't have track times to offer. My reference point is not what's faster (lap times) but what is more engaging and fun to drive and I preferred the m3 over the m2. I clearly remember when I got out of the m3 in the pits I was blown away by its performance, handling and how engaging it was to drive compared to the m2. I think m2 is a great car as it offers better traction off the line than the m3 but for me it stopped there. People say the m2 feels lighter than the m3 and I would agree with that on the road but on the track the m3 feels very different. To me it felt like a different car, more responsive, more engaging, precise to place into the apex, much faster acceleration. It is just a phenomenal car to drive and I really have started to appreciate it a lot more after tracking it vs as a DD. Hope this helps.
This is dead on... I hate to say this, but I found the M2 to not be special at all... The N55 somewhat ruined it, but the other small bits and pieces put it to rest.
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      10-13-2016, 02:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by KZEVO View Post
I preferred the m3 over the m2.
So you like the long wheelbase version because it's more engaging and fun to drive

On the dragstrip I agree.
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      10-13-2016, 02:21 PM   #34
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40% of your 5 points have to do with PDC/door size. Those are both fixed easily with the M3. The M3 has nice, short doors. And you can get front PDC.

The rest is just pure bliss. You'll be happy you made the switch once you get over the "unicorn" aspect of the M2, which is a freaking fantastic car!

I got rid of a Ford Raptor because it just was too big to fit into my home and work garage spots (it wouldn't even clear the 6'7" height of the parking garage so I had to go to work an hour early just to get a spot up top). I miss the Raptor every day, but I will own one again when my living/work conditions are better suited for it.

Don't underestimate daily convenience. I'm sure you will love the M3 if you decide to switch. It's an incredibly capable car with some VERY nice M-specific finishes (mirrors, seats, roof, trim) that are an upgrade over your M2.

Cheers!
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      10-13-2016, 05:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
This is dead on... I hate to say this, but I found the M2 to not be special at all... The N55 somewhat ruined it, but the other small bits and pieces put it to rest.
Each to thier own. You are in the minority tho.

The M3 used to have legend status, these days you can be parked next to one at a shopping centre and not notice it. The same cant be said for a M2 ( excepting white ones)

If the kids were still at home I would consider the M3 but would most likely buy the Alfa.

I would love someone to define engaging, whilst thier at it do raw as well.
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      10-13-2016, 06:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Each to thier own. You are in the minority tho.

The M3 used to have legend status, these days you can be parked next to one at a shopping centre and not notice it. The same cant be said for a M2 ( excepting white ones)

If the kids were still at home I would consider the M3 but would most likely buy the Alfa.

I would love someone to define engaging, whilst thier at it do raw as well.
happy to help you out here, bro.

Engaging. Involving the driver in the experience. Comes from not only things like rowing your own gears and having to constantly make adjustments to your other inputs (i.e. steering, throttle, braking), but it also comes from the feedback you get (felt through the steering wheel, seat, etc.) and the sounds you hear.

Raw. unrefined, rough. a stiff suspension would generally be considered raw. other things like a lack of smoothness in the engine or drivetrain would make something feel raw (for instance, when you start up a GT3 engine and hear and feel the rough idle as compared with a Carrera engine, you'll know what raw means).


I understand your editorial commentary regarding how these terms are thrown around quite loosely on the internet, but they do actually mean something.
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      10-13-2016, 06:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
happy to help you out here, bro.

Engaging. Involving the driver in the experience. Comes from not only things like rowing your own gears and having to constantly make adjustments to your other inputs (i.e. steering, throttle, braking), but it also comes from the feedback you get (felt through the steering wheel, seat, etc.) and the sounds you hear.

Raw. unrefined, rough. a stiff suspension would generally be considered raw. other things like a lack of smoothness in the engine or drivetrain would make something feel raw (for instance, when you start up a GT3 engine and hear and feel the rough idle as compared with a Carrera engine, you'll know what raw means).


I understand your editorial commentary regarding how these terms are thrown around quite loosely on the internet, but they do actually mean something.

Excellent thanks for that.
The points you have referenced as engaging are:

Rowing your own gears. Most F8*s are DCT which are used on M drive days.

Steering - Deemed inferior to M2,s by most who have driven both

Sound - F8* Universally panned by all.

For some reason this still adds up to more engaging for some. Oh well


Raw - Mezger engine in a GT3 - Great analogy
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      10-13-2016, 10:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Excellent thanks for that.
The points you have referenced as engaging are:

Rowing your own gears. Most F8*s are DCT which are used on M drive days.

Steering - Deemed inferior to M2,s by most who have driven both

Sound - F8* Universally panned by all.

For some reason this still adds up to more engaging for some. Oh well


Raw - Mezger engine in a GT3 - Great analogy
Not sure if you're trolling, so I'll respond to your old info.

Most M3/M4 are DCT, I'll give you that one, mine isn't.

Steering Feel- Old info. Given, the early M3/M4's had lesser steering. The hardware is the same as now, and the same in the M2. It is just software. My M3 was on early firmware, and when I got it updated it was much better. Same as the M2. I've had some seat time in the ZCP and it is the same as the M2 in back to back driving.

Exhaust - Old info - Let's compare two current cars. The M2 and M3 ZCP both sound great. Yes the early cars exhaust was not great and was paned, but again out of date info.

The M3/M4's have received numerous improvements since their launch, and those improvements were incorporated in the M2. As a result the M2 at launch was better prepared then the M3/M4 at launch. That said, comparing the current cars is appropriate, not just a regurgitation of the early reviews.

I own an M2 now, so this isn't me repeating someone else's opinions. Looking forward to getting back in an M3 next week.
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      10-14-2016, 05:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
Not sure if you're trolling, so I'll respond to your old info.

Most M3/M4 are DCT, I'll give you that one, mine isn't.

Steering Feel- Old info. Given, the early M3/M4's had lesser steering. The hardware is the same as now, and the same in the M2. It is just software. My M3 was on early firmware, and when I got it updated it was much better. Same as the M2. I've had some seat time in the ZCP and it is the same as the M2 in back to back driving.

Exhaust - Old info - Let's compare two current cars. The M2 and M3 ZCP both sound great. Yes the early cars exhaust was not great and was paned, but again out of date info.

The M3/M4's have received numerous improvements since their launch, and those improvements were incorporated in the M2. As a result the M2 at launch was better prepared then the M3/M4 at launch. That said, comparing the current cars is appropriate, not just a regurgitation of the early reviews.

I own an M2 now, so this isn't me repeating someone else's opinions. Looking forward to getting back in an M3 next week.

Thanks but i wasnt talking about your comments or your car.

I was referring to the "much better and engaging" trackstars opinions.

Anyway whilst you are here, in your opinion the "current F8* ZCP steers as good ands sounds as good as a M2.
Im good with that. I value that you have owned both, and that carries a lot more weight than a M drive day.
For the record I think all M cars dating back to the E28 M5 are pretty special.
I just dont value opinions that beat on other other M cars unless they are credentialed.
Seems to be the way of the world these days to belittle as a pathway to feel better about your own purchase
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      10-14-2016, 08:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Each to thier own. You are in the minority tho.

The M3 used to have legend status, these days you can be parked next to one at a shopping centre and not notice it. The same cant be said for a M2 ( excepting white ones)

If the kids were still at home I would consider the M3 but would most likely buy the Alfa.

I would love someone to define engaging, whilst thier at it do raw as well.
Good discussion here...

I'm a fan of both the M3 and M2 (haven't driven M2), but have to agree that the M2 garners more attention, at least with the general public. A big part of that is coupe vs sedan obviously. People in the know how, may be more interested in the M3 however.

The next iteration of the M3\M4 is a huge one for BMW. If Alfa comes out with a car this good in its first try (pending its actual release, reliability, etc), it spells trouble for the M division, BUT, it also means the next M3 can be very special.
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      10-14-2016, 09:31 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Seems to be the way of the world these days to belittle as a pathway to feel better about your own purchase
I think most here will agree with you on that. It isn't needed. These cars stir enough passion without people adding anecdotal evidence.

For the record they are both engaging on the track, just in different ways.

The M2 is all about mid-corner speed, get that wrong and it isn't as good as you might believe. If you get that right it's awesome. It won't bite you if you make a mistake. Once you start to unwind on corner exit you can just hammer the throttle. It can make a novice look like a hero.

The M3 is all about managing the power on corner exit, and getting it down as soon as possible, but not too soon. The base M3 is slower mid-corner then the M2, but it picks that back up quickly. (The M3 ZCP appears to have fixed that corner speed issue, basing this on reviews, I haven't tracked one yet.) The M3 is much trickier to drive at the limit. If you get it right it's disturbingly quick, and the ZCP has supposedly made it quicker in the corner. If you get it wrong, it's a handful.

The above is based on my track experience in the Base M3 and M2.
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      10-14-2016, 09:51 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koastal View Post
Each to thier own. You are in the minority tho.

The M3 used to have legend status, these days you can be parked next to one at a shopping centre and not notice it. The same cant be said for a M2 ( excepting white ones)

If the kids were still at home I would consider the M3 but would most likely buy the Alfa.

I would love someone to define engaging, whilst thier at it do raw as well.
I guess I'm in the minority too. I really wanted an M2 and I was on the wait list well before they even had a release date. Was super disappointed once I finally got to drive one and replaced my M3 with an M4 ZCP instead.
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      10-14-2016, 09:09 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08
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Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
There are difference that make them appeal to different audiences.
M2 appeals to a slightly younger audience (All the comments I get are from 20 somethings). No kids, not over 5'10", Not-truly a daily driver, and/or if price difference is a hit to your standard of living, then get the M2.

M3 appeals to BMW guys (Most comments come from 30+ year olds.) Have kids, over 5'10", truly a daily driver, and/or price difference makes no real difference to your standard of living then go for the M3 (I have no experience in the M4)



There is no good info coming from the M2 boards as they are all set on their purchase and very few have experience in the M2 and it's older 1/2 siblings. I've got over 8K miles in a non-ZCP M3 and over 2500 miles in an M2. I'm looking forward to my return to the M3 (Now ZCP) in a week and a half. Yes, the difference is in the engine and the body/interior.



There is definitely a reason it costs more. The question is if it is worth $20k more to you. That $20k is what you are really looking at feature for feature. The suspension is the same (ish, adaptive vs. passive), the steering is the same. I've driven about 100 miles in a ZCP and they fixed the dead spot on center issue and the steering feels just like the M2. In the older M3's it was not as well sorted. The steering is actually quite good. The ZCP is better planted then the early M3's that were tail happy and tricky to drive. The software update for the early M3's got them to 90% of the ZCP, but 90% is not 100%.

In a straight line there is no comparison. The M3 will walk away from the M2. The M3's engine is special, the M2's is "only" great. My take is that the M3 justifies $10k of the difference here.

The M2 is easier to drive and drive fast. Part of this is that the car is MUCH shorter. It is more of a sports car, than the M3's sport sedan. The M3 ZCP is faster. The M2 at 10/10ths is easy and accessible, even to a novice. Not so in the M3. A ZCP M3 at 9/10 is faster than the M2 at 10/10. Going past 9/10 in the M3 you know there is an angry beast waiting for you if you cross the line. With the M2 there isn't.

The interior of the M2 is nothing special, the M3's interior is. I find the M2's seats crippling after a long drive. I found the M3's seats to be very comfortable. I would easily say the M3's interior is $10k better than the M2's.

Convenience of 4 doors. If this is important to you (kids) then there isn't a comparable car on the market to the M3. I also think it's the best looking of the M2/M3/M4 family.

Note: Part of why people associate fun with the M2 is that a majority of them are sticks. The stick adds a character to the M cars that can't be replaced by any level of jiggery pokery from a DCT. Even if it's slower. My F87 is stick and so is my upcoming M3.
Agree with everything except the 5'10" comments. I fit well in both cars and I'm 6'7"
I'm impressed you fit. Absolutely no grease spot on the ceiling liner where you sit??. Joking of course.
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      10-15-2016, 01:21 PM   #44
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My F80 was active, but the ones I test drove were passive. The F80's passive is between Sport and Sport+, and so is the M2. Roughly the same ride comfort.
Well now that's a surprise! I wouldn't have thought that the F87's suspension actually equals a Sport/Sport+ adaptive. Makes me wonder just how comfortable Comfort must be - and if it's worth satisfying the excellent passive spring/damper setup for some extra luxury. (not to mention the adaptive dampers are optional $$ over here)
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