M4 GTS on Motor Trend's Ignition (Laguna Seca Lap Time Inside)

[CirrusSR22]

     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com

Video is up on Motor Trend on Demand. Randy Pobst did a lap time at Leguna Seca.

1:37.66

The Mustang GT350R did about 1:36.06 ("1.6 seconds faster")
The Camaro SS 1 LE ($44,000) basically tied the M4 GTS.

[M4_GTS]

I guess the M4 GTS will not likely have a chance at winning their "best driver's car 2016".

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Thats the time of a GT4 as recal it did something simular? Was that the understeery gt4, did they not test it several times?

[jml]

If you listen to Jason's comments while on the track, he said it felt numb and was hard to drive quickly. I'm sure that is foreshadowing that it's not going to win, especially given the contenders this year. I'm a bit disappointed in the lap time as well. Maybe it needed some more tweaking to improve rear grip.

[ASAP]

The fact that a company's most ambitious and fastest track car ever for a $150k price is tied by a Camaro... is rather shocking... either something is very wrong w the settings, or BMW is royally messing up the performance cars.

[mu2002cs]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The fact that a company's most ambitious and fastest track car ever for a $150k price is tied by a Camaro... is rather shocking... either something is very wrong w the settings, or BMW is royally messing up the performance cars.

Let's remember that he was driving a pre-production car built over a year ago. These cars have been used for testing, dealer and trade shows, been on and off trucks who knows how many times, and, driven very hard by BMW drivers on various tracks. Other than maintenance, no "production improvements" have been made to these cars, including software, suspension settings, etc. Take all of these initial "road tests" with a grain of salt. Best to read those that used an actual production car.

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by mu2002cs

Let's remember that he was driving a pre-production car built over a year ago. These cars have been used for testing, dealer and trade shows, been on and off trucks who knows how many times, and, driven very hard by BMW drivers on various tracks. Other than maintenance, no "production improvements" have been made to these cars, including software, suspension settings, etc. Take all of these initial "road tests" with a grain of salt. Best to read those that used an actual production car.

How do you know for sure the car he was driving was built a year ago? How do you know that car was used for testing? Do you really think BMW would give the journalist a car that is not 100% up to spec?

All your points may or may not be valid. But I am pretty sure all the North American preproduction M4 GTS cars was not used during for development purposes.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The fact that a company's most ambitious and fastest track car ever for a $150k price is tied by a Camaro... is rather shocking... either something is very wrong w the settings, or BMW is royally messing up the performance cars.

...or maybe Motortrend is on a mission

[Leaveit2bevo]

lolz base Corvette is a couple tenths off

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

...or maybe Motortrend is on a mission

lol i am w u

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

lol i am w u

I just had dinner over the weekend with a good buddy of mine who is a financial analyst and broker. He was telling me how worried he is about the automotive market, how he is seeing the financial bubble move from real-estate to vehicles and the increasing level of debt of American car makers (especially GM). There are strong incentives...

[mu2002cs]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

How do you know for sure the car he was driving was built a year ago? How do you know that car was used for testing? Do you really think BMW would give the journalist a car that is not 100% up to spec?

All your points may or may not be valid. But I am pretty sure all the North American preproduction M4 GTS cars was not used during for development purposes.

Besides having an excellent relationship with BMW, the VIN number tells the truth. The car was built mid-November and is one of the 10 pre-production cars. I was at Laguna Seca and saw both of the M4 GTS. I always check the VIN, and then chat with the techs about the "state of these cars" vs "production" cars.

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by mu2002cs

Besides having an excellent relationship with BMW, the VIN number tells the truth. The car was built mid-November and is one of the 10 pre-production cars. I was at Laguna Seca and saw both of the M4 GTS. I always check the VIN, and then chat with the techs about the "state of these cars" vs "production" cars.

It's just too bad I don't know anyone at BMW. Bugger. we will just have to believe everything you say about these cars then.

But how is a mid November build m4 gts over a year old? it's also too bad thee GTS can't even take a little track beating. I guess these cars is build like jello.

[mu2002cs]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

It's just too bad I don't know anyone at BMW. Bugger. we will just have to believe everything you say about these cars then.

But how is a mid November build m4 gts over a year old? it's also too bad thee GTS can't even take a little track beating. I guess these cars is build like jello.

OK, 9 months old This is a pretty common practice for new BMWs. When the i8 was introduced, the press drove pre-production cars quite a bit. Some of them had the cars for several days to do long drives. Some of them disclosed the status in their articles, and some did not. Ditto for the M2s.

I look forward to a full test being published with measurement, timing equipment, etc installed. I suspect we will see the first tests from the European press.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by ASAP

lol i am w u

seconded here. The conspiracy theory of GM and MT sleeping together gets more realistic with this latest test. The GTS is a direct GT3 competitor that has posted similar lap times, long and short tracks, as the Porsche. For reference, what was the 991 GT3 Leguna time?

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

seconded here. The conspiracy theory of GM and MT sleeping together gets more realistic with this latest test. The GTS is a direct GT3 competitor that has posted similar lap times, long and short tracks, as the Porsche. For reference, what was the 991 GT3 Leguna time?

Other motortrend times .No conspiracy lol , Randy drives them as fast as he can . Hell Chevy sent a bad Z06 for its first test , was almost 2 seconds off the pace of another one they tested later . The time is what it is don't make excuses , for BMW . It's poor if that's all the car can do or its poor that BMW sent a poorly prepped car . Not Motortrends fault .

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Other motortrend times .No conspiracy lol , Randy drives them as fast as he can . Hell Chevy sent a bad Z06 for its first test , was almost 2 seconds off the pace of another one they tested later . The time is what it is don't make excuses , for BMW . It's poor if that's all the car can do or its poor that BMW sent a poorly prepped car . Not Motortrends fault .

If you watch the old z06 and the ats-v/cts-v tests, the GM crew sent a large contingent of staff to tweak the chassis and change tires, even Motortrend talks about how the GM staff was there helping MT with lap times.

Now the z06 engine did go into limp mode last year and MT said not even the gm staff could fix it.

Smart move by GM- they wanted to make sure that their cars are driven right considering all the advertisement they pay on mt, it makes sense.

I would consider also that MT says the X5/X6M models are faster around the track than the F8X M'S- see their times on willow springs. It is interesting to note that NO OTHER TRACKS do the X5/X6M's run even CLOSE to a F8x.

NONE, in fact the x5m/x6m can barely keep up with e9x track times, much less a F8X.

I think it is a usual thing for MT to have results that don't jive with the rest of the world's results- not just for BMW's, but for whatever brand they feel like making fun of.

Their videos are more for entertainment than actual facts. They spend more than half the time bashing or mocking brands/cars rather than review them.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

If you watch the old z06 and the ats-v/cts-v tests, the GM crew sent a large contingent of staff to tweak the chassis and change tires, even Motortrend talks about how the GM staff was there helping MT with lap times.

Now the z06 engine did go into limp mode last year and MT said not even the gm staff could fix it.

Smart move by GM- they wanted to make sure that their cars are driven right considering all the advertisement they pay on mt, it makes sense.

I would consider also that MT says the X5/X6M models are faster around the track than the F8X M'S- see their times on willow springs. It is interesting to note that NO OTHER TRACKS do the X5/X6M's run even CLOSE to a F8x.

NONE, in fact the x5m/x6m can barely keep up with e9x track times, much less a F8X.

I think it is a usual thing for MT to have results that don't jive with the rest of the world's results- not just for BMW's, but for whatever brand they feel like making fun of.

Their videos are more for entertainment than actual facts. They spend more than half the time bashing or mocking brands/cars rather than review them.

I'm also calling BS on this one. Look at the following times for Hockenheim Short (cars that tied the M4GTS in green, cars with slower times in red, and the current-generation Camaro SS 1LE in blue assuming it was equally as fast at the M4 GTS):

26. Porsche 911 R (991) Christian Gebhardt 1:09.10 507 / -
27. Mosler MT 900 GTR unknown 1:09.20 521 / 1278
28. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst Von Saurma 1:09.20 570 / 1430
27. Mosler MT 900 GTR unknown 1:09.20 521 / 1278
28. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst Von Saurma 1:09.20 570 / 1430
29. McLaren MP4-12C Spider unknown 1:09.20 625 / 1453
30. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) unknown 1:09.20 476 / 1425
31. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) unknown 1:09.30 520 / 1595
32. Murcielago LP 670-4 SV unknown 1:09.50 670 / 1664
33. Porsche 911 GT3 RS Walter Rohrl 1:09.50 450 / 1400
34. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 1:09.50 500 / 1360
35. Lexus LFA Nurburgring Package unknown 1:09.50 570 / 1509
36. Audi R8 GT Horst von Saurma 1:09.60 560 / 1520
37. Nissan GT-R (R35 550 PS) Christian Gebhardt 1:09.60 550 / 1736
38. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S unknown 1:09.60 510 / 1674
39. Porsche 911 Carrera S unknown 1:09.60 420 / 1440
40. BMW M4 GTS unknown 1:09.60 500 / -
40B. Camaro SS 1LE: 109.60
41. Porsche 911 GT2 (997) unknown 1:09.70 530 / 1440
42. Wiesmann GT MF5 unknown 1:09.70 507 / 1380
43. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 1:09.70 570 / 1485
44. Caterham Seven 620R Christian Gebhardt 1:09.70 315 / 500
45. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT Ola Källenius 1:09.80 591 / 1620
46. Corvette 427 Convertible Christian Gebhardt 1:09.80 512 / 1522
47. Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet Christian Gebhardt 1:09.80 560 / 1675
48. Koenigsegg CCR unknown 1:09.80 806 / 1418
49. Ferrari F12 Berlinetta Horst Von Saurma 1:09.90 740 / 1699
50. Nissan GT-R (R35 550 PS) unknown 1:09.90 550 / 1736
51. Nissan GT-R (R35 530 PS) unknown 1:10.00 530 / 1736
52. Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) Christian Gebhardt 1:10.10 385 / 1340

On the Nurburgring GP:
1. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 Paul Englert 1:33.30 610 / 1422
2. McLaren 675LT Christian Gebhardt 1:34.40 675 / 1230
3. McLaren 650 S Paul Englert 1:34.40 650 / 1428
4. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 unknown 1:34.90 610 / 1422
5. Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991) unknown 1:35.00 500 / 1420
6. BMW M4 GTS unknown 1:36.80 500 / -
6. Camaro SS 1LE (2017 Model): 1.36.80
7. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 1:37.80 570 / 1485
8. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 1:38.10 500 / 1360
9. Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 unknown 1:38.80 700 / 1731
10. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT unknown 1:38.80 461 / -
11. Porsche 911 Carrera S (991) unknown 1:39.10 400 / 1415
12. Porsche 911 GT2 RS (997) unknown 1:39.30 620 / 1370
13. Porsche 911 Turbo S unknown 1:39.31 530 / 1585
14. Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet unknown 1:39.60 530 / 1660
15. Nissan GT-R (R35 530 PS) unknown 1:39.62 530 / 1736


And on the Nurburgring Nordschleife:
22. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) Timo Kluck 7:25.00 476 / 1425
23. Ferrari Enzo Marc Basseng 7:25.21 660 / 1365
24. SLS AMG Black Series Markus Hofbauer 7:25.67 631 / 1550
25. KTM X-BOW RR unknown 7:25.72 365 / 810
26. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) unknown 7:26.00 560 / 1605
27. Nissan GT-R (R35) Toshio Suzuki 7:26.70 480 / 1740
28. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 7:27.00 500 / 1360
29. BMW M4 GTS unknown 7:27.88 500 / -
29B. Camaro SS 1LE (2017 Model): 7.27.88
30. McLaren MP4-12C Horst von Saurma 7:28.00 600 / 1434
31. Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991) Christian Gebhardt 7:28.00 500 / 1420
32. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 Christian Gebhardt 7:28.00 610 / 1422
33. Porsche Carrera GT Marc Basseng 7:28.71 612 / 1380
34. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) unknown 7:29.00 520 / 1595
35. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT unknown 7:30.00 591 / 1620
36. Porsche 911 GT2 (997) Walter Rohrl 7:31.00 530 / 1440
37. Porsche 911 Turbo S Walter Rohrl 7:32.00 530 / 1585
38. Audi R8 V10 Plus (Mk II) unknown 7:32.00 610 / 1454
39. Ford Shelby Mustang GT350R unknown 7:32.19 - / -
40. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) unknown 7:32.20 476 / 1425
41. Pagani Zonda F unknown 7:33.00 602 / 1371
42. Porsche 911 GT3 RS unknown 7:33.00 450 / 1400
43. Ferrari F12 Berlinetta Horst von Saurma 7:33.00 740 / 1699
44. Koenigsegg CCX Marc Basseng 7:33.55 806 / 1456
45. Koenigsegg CCR unknown 7:34.00 806 / 1418
46. Audi R8 GT Horst von Saurma 7:34.00 560 / 1520
47. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) Horst von Saurma 7:34.00 560 / 1605
48. Porsche 911 Carrera S Christian Gebhardt 7:34.00 420 / 1440
49. Nissan GT-R Spec-V (R35) unknown 7:34.46 492 / 1680
50. RUF RT12 unknown 7:35.00 650 / 1573
51. McLaren 650 S Spider unknown 7:35.00 650 / 1468
52. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S unknown 7:35.00 510 / 1674
53. Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 unknown 7:37.47 507 / 1702
54. Porsche 911 Carrera S (991) Timo Kluck 7:37.90 400 / 1415
55. Porsche 911 Turbo (997) unknown 7:38.00 480 / 1585
56. Lexus LFA unknown 7:38.00 560 / 1609
57. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst von Saurma 7:38.00 570 / 1430
58. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 7:38.00 570 / 1485
59. Porsche Panamera Turbo (Mk II) unknown 7:38.00 550 / -
60. Ferrari 430 Scuderia unknown 7:39.00 510 / 1402
61. Porsche 911 Turbo unknown 7:39.00 500 / 1570
62. Alfa Romeo Giulia QV unknown 7:39.00 510 / -

So - to validate some of the skeptical points above - interesting how Motor Trend's results place the M4 GTS farther back relative to the same/similar cars versus the other published results above. I find it hard to believe that the M4GTS tested by Motor Trend was not in fact a preproduction model that is not going to perform as well as a production-spec model.

And before Motor Trend (or anyone else on here) is ever-so-ready to bash the F8x chassis (which is really getting old) - how would Motor Trend or these other people explain how the Camaro SS 1LE is faster than all of the other cars in red on these additional tracks (again - taking Motor Trend's word for it that the M4 GTS is no faster than a $44k Camaro SS 1LE? (not to mention that a lot of those other cars in red are even more expensive than the M4 GTS)?

When Camisa was at Road and Track he criticized the M3/M4 as having too much torque and not being able to put traction down. However, in that same test, he praised the far-more oversteer-prone RWD Jaguar F-Type R

I cannot believe that Motor Trend, which goes so far out of its way to criticize the F8x gen M3/M4, gets consistently worse lap times relative to other car test results (i.e., F8x vs. X6M) is unbiased toward that car. The numbers are simply too far off other magazine's testing times...

[DieGrüneHölle]

I was expecting a 1:37.xx actually.

I wasn't blown away with the Sport Auto lap times.

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I just had dinner over the weekend with a good buddy of mine who is a financial analyst and broker. He was telling me how worried he is about the automotive market, how he is seeing the financial bubble move from real-estate to vehicles and the increasing level of debt of American car makers (especially GM). There are strong incentives...

I heard the same too

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I'm also calling BS on this one. Look at the following times for Hockenheim Short (cars that tied the M4GTS in green, cars with slower times in red, and the current-generation Camaro SS 1LE in blue assuming it was equally as fast at the M4 GTS):

26. Porsche 911 R (991) Christian Gebhardt 1:09.10 507 / -
27. Mosler MT 900 GTR unknown 1:09.20 521 / 1278
28. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst Von Saurma 1:09.20 570 / 1430
27. Mosler MT 900 GTR unknown 1:09.20 521 / 1278
28. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst Von Saurma 1:09.20 570 / 1430
29. McLaren MP4-12C Spider unknown 1:09.20 625 / 1453
30. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) unknown 1:09.20 476 / 1425
31. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) unknown 1:09.30 520 / 1595
32. Murcielago LP 670-4 SV unknown 1:09.50 670 / 1664
33. Porsche 911 GT3 RS Walter Rohrl 1:09.50 450 / 1400
34. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 1:09.50 500 / 1360
35. Lexus LFA Nurburgring Package unknown 1:09.50 570 / 1509
36. Audi R8 GT Horst von Saurma 1:09.60 560 / 1520
37. Nissan GT-R (R35 550 PS) Christian Gebhardt 1:09.60 550 / 1736
38. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S unknown 1:09.60 510 / 1674
39. Porsche 911 Carrera S unknown 1:09.60 420 / 1440
40. BMW M4 GTS unknown 1:09.60 500 / -
40B. Camaro SS 1LE: 109.60
41. Porsche 911 GT2 (997) unknown 1:09.70 530 / 1440
42. Wiesmann GT MF5 unknown 1:09.70 507 / 1380
43. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 1:09.70 570 / 1485
44. Caterham Seven 620R Christian Gebhardt 1:09.70 315 / 500
45. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT Ola Källenius 1:09.80 591 / 1620
46. Corvette 427 Convertible Christian Gebhardt 1:09.80 512 / 1522
47. Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet Christian Gebhardt 1:09.80 560 / 1675
48. Koenigsegg CCR unknown 1:09.80 806 / 1418
49. Ferrari F12 Berlinetta Horst Von Saurma 1:09.90 740 / 1699
50. Nissan GT-R (R35 550 PS) unknown 1:09.90 550 / 1736
51. Nissan GT-R (R35 530 PS) unknown 1:10.00 530 / 1736
52. Porsche Cayman GT4 (981) Christian Gebhardt 1:10.10 385 / 1340

On the Nurburgring GP:
1. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 Paul Englert 1:33.30 610 / 1422
2. McLaren 675LT Christian Gebhardt 1:34.40 675 / 1230
3. McLaren 650 S Paul Englert 1:34.40 650 / 1428
4. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 unknown 1:34.90 610 / 1422
5. Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991) unknown 1:35.00 500 / 1420
6. BMW M4 GTS unknown 1:36.80 500 / -
6. Camaro SS 1LE (2017 Model): 1.36.80
7. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 1:37.80 570 / 1485
8. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 1:38.10 500 / 1360
9. Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 unknown 1:38.80 700 / 1731
10. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT unknown 1:38.80 461 / -
11. Porsche 911 Carrera S (991) unknown 1:39.10 400 / 1415
12. Porsche 911 GT2 RS (997) unknown 1:39.30 620 / 1370
13. Porsche 911 Turbo S unknown 1:39.31 530 / 1585
14. Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet unknown 1:39.60 530 / 1660
15. Nissan GT-R (R35 530 PS) unknown 1:39.62 530 / 1736


And on the Nurburgring Nordschleife:
22. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) Timo Kluck 7:25.00 476 / 1425
23. Ferrari Enzo Marc Basseng 7:25.21 660 / 1365
24. SLS AMG Black Series Markus Hofbauer 7:25.67 631 / 1550
25. KTM X-BOW RR unknown 7:25.72 365 / 810
26. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) unknown 7:26.00 560 / 1605
27. Nissan GT-R (R35) Toshio Suzuki 7:26.70 480 / 1740
28. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 (997) unknown 7:27.00 500 / 1360
29. BMW M4 GTS unknown 7:27.88 500 / -
29B. Camaro SS 1LE (2017 Model): 7.27.88
30. McLaren MP4-12C Horst von Saurma 7:28.00 600 / 1434
31. Porsche 911 GT3 RS (991) Christian Gebhardt 7:28.00 500 / 1420
32. Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 Christian Gebhardt 7:28.00 610 / 1422
33. Porsche Carrera GT Marc Basseng 7:28.71 612 / 1380
34. Porsche 911 Turbo (991) unknown 7:29.00 520 / 1595
35. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT unknown 7:30.00 591 / 1620
36. Porsche 911 GT2 (997) Walter Rohrl 7:31.00 530 / 1440
37. Porsche 911 Turbo S Walter Rohrl 7:32.00 530 / 1585
38. Audi R8 V10 Plus (Mk II) unknown 7:32.00 610 / 1454
39. Ford Shelby Mustang GT350R unknown 7:32.19 - / -
40. Porsche 911 GT3 (991) unknown 7:32.20 476 / 1425
41. Pagani Zonda F unknown 7:33.00 602 / 1371
42. Porsche 911 GT3 RS unknown 7:33.00 450 / 1400
43. Ferrari F12 Berlinetta Horst von Saurma 7:33.00 740 / 1699
44. Koenigsegg CCX Marc Basseng 7:33.55 806 / 1456
45. Koenigsegg CCR unknown 7:34.00 806 / 1418
46. Audi R8 GT Horst von Saurma 7:34.00 560 / 1520
47. Porsche 911 Turbo S (991) Horst von Saurma 7:34.00 560 / 1605
48. Porsche 911 Carrera S Christian Gebhardt 7:34.00 420 / 1440
49. Nissan GT-R Spec-V (R35) unknown 7:34.46 492 / 1680
50. RUF RT12 unknown 7:35.00 650 / 1573
51. McLaren 650 S Spider unknown 7:35.00 650 / 1468
52. Mercedes-Benz AMG GT S unknown 7:35.00 510 / 1674
53. Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 unknown 7:37.47 507 / 1702
54. Porsche 911 Carrera S (991) Timo Kluck 7:37.90 400 / 1415
55. Porsche 911 Turbo (997) unknown 7:38.00 480 / 1585
56. Lexus LFA unknown 7:38.00 560 / 1609
57. Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera Horst von Saurma 7:38.00 570 / 1430
58. Ferrari 458 Italia unknown 7:38.00 570 / 1485
59. Porsche Panamera Turbo (Mk II) unknown 7:38.00 550 / -
60. Ferrari 430 Scuderia unknown 7:39.00 510 / 1402
61. Porsche 911 Turbo unknown 7:39.00 500 / 1570
62. Alfa Romeo Giulia QV unknown 7:39.00 510 / -

So - to validate some of the skeptical points above - interesting how Motor Trend's results place the M4 GTS farther back relative to the same/similar cars versus the other published results above. I find it hard to believe that the M4GTS tested by Motor Trend was not in fact a preproduction model that is not going to perform as well as a production-spec model.

And before Motor Trend (or anyone else on here) is ever-so-ready to bash the F8x chassis (which is really getting old) - how would Motor Trend or these other people explain how the Camaro SS 1LE is faster than all of the other cars in red on these additional tracks (again - taking Motor Trend's word for it that the M4 GTS is no faster than a $44k Camaro SS 1LE? (not to mention that a lot of those other cars in red are even more expensive than the M4 GTS)?

When Camisa was at Road and Track he criticized the M3/M4 as having too much torque and not being able to put traction down. However, in that same test, he praised the far-more oversteer-prone RWD Jaguar F-Type R

I cannot believe that Motor Trend, which goes so far out of its way to criticize the F8x gen M3/M4, gets consistently worse lap times relative to other car test results (i.e., F8x vs. X6M) is unbiased toward that car. The numbers are simply too far off other magazine's testing times...

The sport auto ring lap time for the M4 GTS full course was 7:36.x , I.e. Not surprisingly not even close to the claimed factory time of 27.x . The GT3 , 991.1 Turbo S , AMG GTS all were faster by sport auto at the ring , Sachenring , hockenheim and now at Laguna seca with MT . Honestly looking at the times the outcome is not surprising. GT4 has a slight advantage at Laguna but not at hockenheim short or the ring because it's a more of a power track . Everything tracks . All cars do different at different tracks relative to others , based on their strengths and weaknesses .

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

The sport auto ring lap time for the M4 GTS full course was 7:36.x , I.e. Not surprisingly not even close to the claimed factory time of 27.x . The GT3 , 991.1 Turbo S , AMG GTS all were faster by sport auto at the ring , Sachenring , hockenheim and now at Laguna seca with MT . Honestly looking at the times the outcome is not surprising. GT4 has a slight advantage at Laguna but not at hockenheim short or the ring because it's a more of a power track . Everything tracks . All cars do different at different tracks relative to others , based on their strengths and weaknesses .

No - the full course is 20.8 km - all of the times I quoted above came from the 20.6 km configuration - so we're talking the exact same track here.

Again - I absolutely cannot believe the Camaro SS 1LE is going to match the M4 GTS on any track except when Motor Trend is driving (Camisa in particular). No way in hell (or on the green hell for that matter ) is the 1LE going to beat the M4 GTS, let alone all the results in red above or tie the ones in green... Camisa is the new American Sutcliffe.