07-18-2019, 10:08 AM | #23 | |
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I certainly would take a 992S over a 458 and 991 GT3. The 992S is not far off a 991 GT3 RS lap time wise. The 992S also just posted a 1:13 at Vairano, the 458 could only muster a 1:15 despite having 150 more hp. I do think the 992S is a much quicker track car than the M4 GTS. Main reason being the M4 has cup tires for that time, the 911 summers, so that delta is more like 18 seconds (going by 1 second per lap for cup tires). Even the 991.2S on summers have proven to be much faster and the 992S is certainly a step up over the .2 cars. Sure there are plenty of variables but I don’t think there’s a chance an M4 GTS can run with a stock 991.2 S on the same tires let alone a 992. More so when you consider the 911 is the easier car to drive. And that’s not even taking into consideration the M4 GTS is the pinnacle of track M cars whereas the 992S is an entry level street car. The M4 GTS for its huge power and torque, and very much race driven goal is simply not up to snuff when it was released even though bmw knew exactly what it would be compared to and what they were aiming for. Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot. But stick a pro in both cars, same day same track and those numbers are meaningful. MT - Randy driving both at Mazda Raceway (I’ll be doing a track day there in the fall) 991.2S 1:36.44 (summer tires) M4 GTS 1:37.66 (cup tires) Those are pretty compelling to me. To say otherwise is just downright denial. Level out tires and the gap is likely 3 seconds per lap. Not even worth putting them in the same sentence at that point. Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-18-2019 at 10:27 AM.. |
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07-18-2019, 10:47 AM | #24 | |
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Funf6cyl The claim I can only compete in an unlevel playing field (in my favor, of course) is so outlandish it's hilarious, and only shows your complete ignorance and lack of understanding of a) what my claim is (see above for a refresher, perhaps take some reading comprehension classes as well?), and b) what reality is in the HPDE's and AER races I attend. But of course, you're so far off in fantasyland that if I told you I've always ran M3's with significantly LESS modifications than my competition, less sticky rubber and against more expensive machinery, that would go completely over your head. I'm happy to admit an actual Pro would absolutely embarrass my times... whether it would be in my M3, a Porsche or even a 'less capable car' on paper. How many pros do you know make claims such as 'any Porsche is faster than any bmw'? Are you a pro driver? Because you sound awfully lot like a keyboard racer, armed with spreadsheets and online shootouts... Let's see if rephrasing you can actually understand: the performance envelopes of M3's overlap those of much, much more expensive cars, thereby making it the driver that makes the difference - so hopefully most of us reading this thread... or do you only watch races and have youtube HPDE experience? What are your best times with street tires around VIR, the Glen, Pitt Race or Palmer? How about with DOT slicks? Hearing about 'handling', 'pure bred sports cars', 'built from the ground up', etc from people that are clueless is like hearing about the description of sunsets from someone that's been blind since birth, or all those people that have advice for LeBron or Nadal... Back to you Absurdium : In my particular experience with M3's, fellow HPDE'ers (similar driving experience as mine, both while climbing through the ranks and now as an instructors) driving cars with a an on-paper performance capability below a 991.1 or .2 GT3 are simply not at the same pace. Sure, some drivers in 991 GT3's are faster than I am, and others slower, but sausage4, have you really never seen an M3 (of any generation) be faster than a GT3 in an HPDE? The mistake couch racers, closet p-car fanboys and keyboard warriors keep making is inferring that because a pro can be faster in one car vs another, then they, driving that car, can also be faster in that one car vs someone else driving the other car. They forget the fact M3's are more forgiving allows us laymen to approach their limits (and beyond) confidently, thereby enabling us to extract more of the performance available vs another car that is less forgiving. |
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07-18-2019, 11:08 AM | #25 | |
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When they post these laptimes, how many runs do you think they make before posting their "best" possible times for the car? 3 laps? 10 laps? Do you think they changed the aero setting lap after lap to create the optimal operating window for the car? Probably not. The 911 doesn't need that because it doesn't have it. The GTS does. Now, if I take both cars off the showroom and bring it to the track right away, I'll concede the 991.2 or 992 is probably faster. Porsches are better set up out of the box and that's been a fact for a while now (stock M4 doesn't even have adjustable camber setting up front). But you need to understand something like the M4 GTS isn't meant for that. It has adjustable suspension along with adjustable aero to allow track users to set it up to their taste and liking. Once properly set up, I would find it hard to believe that the 911.2 would turn around a faster lap than the M4 GTS. You bring up the point of tires. Well the that lap was was run on the new Pirelli P-zero. Similar to the PS4S, it closes the gap between semi-slick and summer tires over a few laps. Anyways it's clear you're not willing to budge from your point of view. I like laptimes too but I've learned to judge cars based on experiences within them as well. Tracking your car isn't as people think and there are a lot of factors people don't consider. Laptimes set by pro drivers aren't the be all end all for every discussion and I really hope you understand that. Otherwise, spec races, GT3 races where cars are set equal by regulation would have no meaning. Since there are 20 pro drivers on the grid all of which have the identical car, they should all cross the finish line parallel to each other right? We both know this is clearly not the case and really you should approach comparing different cars and their laptimes in a similar manner. At the end of it all, we clearly don't have the same opinion and that is fine. However try to not dismiss other people's opinion as "downright denial". I don't know how this whole argument with you and other users started but I'm starting to understand a bit more. |
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minn1914016.50 |
07-18-2019, 11:18 AM | #26 | |
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However I will have to disagree with one of your point though; I think the F8X is actually not an easy car to extract performance from. For 8/10 and below, it's great. But for that last little bit if you want to set a reference lap, the stock hardware and its weight makes it hard to get an absolute best easily. I will say though, it's damn fun getting to that 10/10 limit even though if it can be scary as hell some times |
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07-18-2019, 11:40 AM | #27 | |
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I’m glad you brought up that point about the M4 GTS’ setting and it’s precisely what I was hoping for since it just goes to show that the car needs optimal settings and to be honest even at those settings, not that fast - like it’s Ring time (mind you the new GT4 with a manual did 7:28 and only 414 hp and is 97k). The M4 GTS has 40kg of downforce at 125 mph, not many tracks will hit entry or apex speeds that high which means the aero isn’t very impactful, resulting in the setting being relatively moot. To go off tangentially, lift and downforce vary by the square of speed so on most tracks, given an entry/apex speed of 60-75 mph you’re only getting something like 20 lbs of downforce. Hardly anything that would make materially difference on a lap. Furthermore, if the M4 GTS can’t beat one with a lot more power, a lot more tq, stickier tires, a ton more aero where it can be used on the Ring then it shows me on lesser tracks where aero isn’t as much a factor it will not make a difference. I’ve driven an M4 GTS along with my 991.2S and a GT4 all same day so I’m speaking from my own personal experience on how they are on track. I’d put money on the 911 or GT4. Just to give you a sense, I’ve owned 4 911s, 2 Caymans and 8 M cars (including both an f80/2 M3 and M4). I actually found the M cars were more aggressively set up out of the factory than my Porsches (even if they do have more adjustability). I couldn’t disagree on tires. The new Cup2s are much better tires during a track day though they are not as ideal as others. It goes to say, to your point, too many variables and deltas in driver skill to compare most times which is why the “I passed X car” at an HPDE means nothing. There’s a big difference between a guy trying to have a little fun on a track in a 200k Gt3 just putting around and a few guys in cars “racing” in much less expensive cars who are trying to be event hero’s. Unless you’re out there racing for something against the clock I don’t put much faith in that other than drivers experience and ability to push a car a bit. If you want to see which car is downright faster, only someone who can extract 100% of it will suffice. That is really the interesting part of watching someone like Randy, or Christian from SportAuto set a time. Otherwise the results are not telling you much when someone says “I passed x car(s) at y track”. That is more my point. sV t what is your fastest time at The Glen? Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-18-2019 at 12:00 PM.. |
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07-18-2019, 11:57 AM | #28 | |||||
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As far as which is an easier car to drive... how many times have you driven a 991.2 on track? How about a GTS? Quote:
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Please, do post videos of what times you've put in the past around Laguna Seca (and what tires) and enlighten the rest of us! I'm dying to hear how with the same tires you are pulling more than 3 seconds per lap than well driven GTS's out there. |
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minn1914016.50 |
07-18-2019, 12:01 PM | #29 | |
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And on our point of disagreement: I've found the f8x (including the GTS) to be as much of a pussycat as the e9x and e46 were before it, the difference is every time more driver skill is required to extract the performance from the car... because you're going faster and faster, of course! |
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Absurdium152.00 |
07-18-2019, 12:18 PM | #30 | |
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07-18-2019, 12:23 PM | #32 | ||||
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Please do post some times of all those cars you've owned and tracked extensively, we're all really curious how much potential you're extracting from such capable machines. Quote:
How does that not contradict your earlier statement of 'these cars can't run together', 'comparing them is delusional', etc etc? This thread is about a track video, not a spec sheet. Quote:
What a pathetic excuse... so there are no GT3's that aren't 'putting around', and only the less expensive cars are trying to be track heros? Have you ever actually been to the track? Quote:
...and my point is, who cares what car is 'downright faster', if YOU will not be faster in it? How does watching videos of LeBron help YOU be better at basketball? ...and why are my times suddenly relevant to you? Whatever happened to 'Ultimately, at my, your level comparisons are moot'? Are you saying what I can pull off in an M3 (stock, lightly modified, etc) is actually meaningful?? |
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07-18-2019, 12:37 PM | #33 | |
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07-18-2019, 12:37 PM | #34 |
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Only because of the closet porsche-lovers... that usually can't afford them, and believe that it's what they need to get faster, as opposed to developing their own driving skills further. I know so, so many people that 'upgraded' to Porsches becasue they thought there was nothing more to be extracted from their M3... but man, they were so, so wrong. And I'm not talking about modifying the car!! Driver mod FTW
I have zero issues with people that respect driving skills and the development that comes with HPDE's, and have plenty of friends that drive Porsches! And as for f8x vs e9x and weight... cars with stiffer suspensions (and associated components) feel sharper in turn in, but I have yet to find lighter cars that are actually faster in slower corners, it's bizarre really... the penalty I see with weight is consumables (tires, brake pads and fuel), but as we have all seen with a GTR, if you put the right components on a porker, it can be blisteringly fast around a track, and feel great while doing so |
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07-18-2019, 08:27 PM | #35 |
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07-19-2019, 03:35 PM | #36 | |
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With a small jack it takes almost no time to switch from street to track settings. FRONT Add camber until you get to -3.0* camber. Mark the camber plate at that point for future reference Toe: 1/8” out total *If you cannot achieve -3.0 camber with 1/8” toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible Then, remove camber until toe changes from 1/8” out total to 3/32” toe in. Mark the camber plates at that point for future reference. Leave the front in this position REAR Camber -1.8* Toe: 1/8” toe in total *If you cannot achieve -1.8 camber with 1/8” toe out, use the maximum negative camber possible |
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Absurdium152.00 |
07-19-2019, 05:22 PM | #37 | |||
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We were able to pass every vette there which included some C7s and GS but no z06s. I've seen some fast Vette drivers though, just not at this particular event. Something I was happy about was that a non-z06 C7 can't outrun the M4 on the back straight! I was able to keep up right on behind him the whole way. Obviously he gave me a bit of tow being right in front of me but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Are you in the GTA as well? Would be awesome to get some F8X running together at CTMP. Quote:
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07-19-2019, 06:10 PM | #38 | |
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07-19-2019, 06:14 PM | #39 | |
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I say this as a Porsche fan boy too. |
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07-19-2019, 07:01 PM | #40 | |
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I live in NorCal but my big brother is in TO and we hit up the track whenever I visit (he is kind enough to share his stock 981 gt4). Last time was in May and we did a test day at TMP because there were no events at mosport GP or DDT that weekend). I’ll send you a PM next time I am there. Please feel free to do the same if you go to California. I do nasa NorCal and SCCA calclub events with my friends regularly and it’s always nice to meet more people I have only been to Mosport big track once and was in the 1:42 range with hand timing. I was not willing to fully commit in corners like T2, in a borrowed GT4 It would definitely be great to meet up at the tracks and I’ll be using your vid as a reference so thanks! |
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Absurdium152.00 |
07-19-2019, 07:09 PM | #41 | |
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As I said, I can have a stock M3/4 provided for comparison so both cars are from the factory stock. Otherwise, it will be some time while I add full exhaust, Cobb tune, intake, and plenum and maybe a ultra lightweight set of wheels and some stickier tires. |
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07-19-2019, 07:53 PM | #42 | ||||
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Ahh I see. The gp track is great! TMP is really not too great because it's very flat and harsh on brakes and tires. Come run with JRP if you guys get a chance! Decently cheap and relatively well done for the price. I'm pretty happy with my pace around the gp track but you can definitely commit harder into some of these corners! My motto is safe reliable speed so definitely wanted to ease into carrying faster speeds. The GT4 does great around here so if you guys ever end up coming, I'd love to get a few group runs in! Thanks for the warm welcome! It may be hard to get a track car down to Cali for me but I'll keep that in mind! I actually want to turo some kind of vert down there and drive Mulholland and PCH as I've done that once and it was an epic drive. Might be hard to convince the turo guy to let me track his car though |
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07-19-2019, 08:12 PM | #43 | |
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Yes, I could see from following other gt4 the car had more capability but driver mod was needed. Haha. Well, I have posted on the forums previously that long time members could message me if they want to drive on tracks in Ca. If you are just using HPDE and contribute to maintenance and get some track insurance I would have no problems lending out my cars. And maybe we could work something similar out when I travel to wherever the member lived. Speaking of turo a friend has a manual golf R and jag f vert on turo. He would probably go to track with you, honestly. |
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07-19-2019, 10:01 PM | #44 | ||
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Oh man that would be awesome. Tbh I'm on the young side on this forum and I've only been tracking for 2 years. But I'm the type to spend hundreds of hours on the simulator to prep for a track day so I was able to improve pretty quickly haha. So if you don't mind my shorter driving history, I'd love to hit the tracks with you guys! (I'd pay for consumables and insurance of course). Oh man I'd love a f-type vert in Cali weather. That thing sounds awesome Might just have to get in touch with you and your friend if I come for a visit haha |
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