BMW M3 / M4 Brake Systems: Deep Dive and Interview

[BenchRacerYo]

Originally Posted by JS919

First off, a base car with no options isn't going to be worth anywhere near what it cost new after 3 - 4 yrs. What your asking is the CCB not going to depreciate? Well of course it is, every option as well as the car is going to depreciate. So your point don't worth shit to me . Second, if you lease, the options & the base car depreciate at the same rate. Since I plan on leasing for 3 years the CCB option won't cost me $8000. If the CCB option don't worth shit after 3 yrs that's BMW's problem not mine.

I LOLd

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by gago1101

I read in many posts that CCBs are not covered by maintenance. I see no mention anywhere on the website that it is not covered. I think it used to say in small print for the M5 CCB option, but that has been removed. I also don't see how BMW can refuse to change them even if you track the car. These cars supposed to be made for occasional tracking.

These cars are indeed built to handle some track use, but that doesn't mean BMW is willing to subsidize such activity. Ultimate Service in general has always excluded levels of wear incurred by use on a racetrack. CCB or not, if you come in needing new pads and/or rotors more often than BMW deems reasonable, while they won't refuse to change them, they won't pay for it either.

Interesting catch that the Ultimate Service note about CCBs has been removed, though. I'm not sure that's an actual change in policy, but even if it is, BMW could again claim (correctly) that on a car driven on the street shouldn't need CCB rotors or pads within the Ultimate Service 50K miles, and probably not even the Extended Maintenance period, and therefore that if a car comes in needing service, chances are that the car is being used for more than street driving, which in turn wouldn't be covered. So the CCB service exclusion could simply be implicit rather than explicit now.

[sq86]

Cool read. Learned a few things I didn't know.

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by gago1101

I read in many posts that CCBs are not covered by maintenance. I see no mention anywhere on the website that it is not covered. I think it used to say in small print for the M5 CCB option, but that has been removed. I also don't see how BMW can refuse to change them even if you track the car. These cars supposed to be made for occasional tracking.

Yea.. they changed that in 2014.. now CCB are covered under the maintenance program.

[gago1101]

Originally Posted by jphughan

These cars are indeed built to handle some track use, but that doesn't mean BMW is willing to subsidize such activity. Ultimate Service in general has always excluded levels of wear incurred by use on a racetrack. CCB or not, if you come in needing new pads and/or rotors more often than BMW deems reasonable, while they won't refuse to change them, they won't pay for it either.

I have not read the full warranty brochure and the fine print, but unless they specifically state that tracking the car would result in no warranty or maintenance coverage, I do not se how they can do that. They may not want to pay, but they will have to in the end. Abusing the car for example by not changing the oil, modifying the car, etc could result in refusal to cover things under warranty or maintenance. Hard driving or regular tracking is not abuse.

For Porsche, it specifically states that the cars should not be fitted with R compound tires for track use as the lateral Gs will be too high for non-dry sump engines, and the damage to the engine will not be covered. This disclaimer is missing from the GT3 warranty as it has a dry sump engine.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by BMWFB02

It's hard to believe that BMW never thought about putting the M logo on their breaks never before on an M3

Maybe because it is the first time they have callipers worthy of the ///M logo

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by gago1101

I have not read the full warranty brochure and the fine print, but unless they specifically state that tracking the car would result in no warranty or maintenance coverage, I do not se how they can do that. They may not want to pay, but they will have to in the end. Abusing the car for example by not changing the oil, modifying the car, etc could result in refusal to cover things under warranty or maintenance. Hard driving or regular tracking is not abuse.

Well maybe you SHOULD read the fine print rather than just speculating. You're right that they can't exclude it without explicitly stating that it's not covered. So here's Page 53 out of the 2011 M3 Supplement:



Granted, the wording makes it ambiguous as to whether the warranty won't cover wear and tear due to any race track use or just competitive motorsports, which aren't always the same. But here's Page 1 out of the 2011 M3/1M Service and Warranty book:



The "provided wear and tear exceeds BMW wear limits" is the weasel-out clause. That means that if you don't make your stuff last at least as long as BMW thinks it should last, you're not covered. Granted, the wording is awkward here too, but the alternative interpretation (that the wear rate must be FASTER than BMW specified limits) doesn't make any sense at all, since BMW would then be saying, "We won't replace your brake pads if they lasted longer than we expected them to." And then of course there's the bullet point at the bottom excluding competitive events -- which granted you could argue wouldn't apply to HPDEs, but they've already got that covered with the weasel-out clause.

Did you honestly believe that BMW would give their track-going owners unlimited brake pads and rotors for the first 4 years/50K miles? Of course people who just go to a couple track days per year could probably keep their Ultimate Service coverage since novices running infrequently at the track would still likely have wear within BMW's limits, but that would never work for more regular track-goers. But it's also probably moot in the real world anyway. The rotors are designed to last long enough that even people who DO go to the track would probably only need one set of new rotors during the Ultimate Service window, and NO track person would run the stock pads at the track beyond maybe their first event or two. But BMW is of course still going to cover their bases.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Attachment 1010450

The "provided wear and tear exceeds BMW wear limits" is the weasel-out clause. That means that if you don't make your stuff last at least as long as BMW thinks it should last, you're not covered. Granted, the wording is awkward here too, but the alternative interpretation (that the wear rate must be FASTER than BMW specified limits) doesn't make any sense at all, since BMW would then be saying, "We won't replace your brake pads if they lasted longer than we expected them to."

I think you are misinterpreting the text. The way I read it, is that wear/tear items are covered if they are worn past the BMW acceptable wear limit. This has nothing to do with how fast they have worn down. For example if your brake pads are totally worn down, even if this occurred at less mileage than expected, BMW will replace them. However, if the pads are only half worn (above the wear threshold), they will not replace them.

As far as being covered for track days and HPDE, the term "competitive events" is very specific. Track days and HPDEs are not considered competitive events.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think you are misinterpreting the text. The way I read it, is that wear/tear items are covered if they are worn past the BMW acceptable wear limit. This has nothing to do with how fast they have worn down. For example if your brake pads are totally worn down, even if this occurred at less mileage than expected, BMW will replace them. However, if the pads are only half worn (above the wear threshold), they will not replace them.

As far as being covered for track days and HPDE, the term "competitive events" is very specific. Track days and HPDEs are not considered competitive events.

Ok, that's actually a plausible interpretation that hadn't occurred to me. I still remember reading fine print about Ultimate Service somewhere that excluded wear they deemed excessive, and there are plenty of posts here of people who got denied another set of brake pads because they'd already gotten more than BMW considered reasonable. I just apparently haven't found the right documentation.

I'm not arguing that HPDEs could be construed as "competitive motorsports". I'm just pointing out that in the warranty coverage, the wording makes it unclear whether they're excluding only competitive motorsports or any driving on a race track. They claim that race track usage results in a higher rate of wear, then mention that the M3 isn't designed for competitive motorsports (not the same thing), then say that "this wear is not covered by the warranty". So what does the "this wear" refer to? The increased wear they mentioned was the type of wear incurred from (general) race track usage, but the sentence immediately prior pertained only to competitive motorsports, and made no specific mention of wear rates. So it's a bit ambiguous.

[Falafel Combo]

Great read. Thanks!




"Material-specific properties mean that increased operational noise may be experienced when braking, particularly in wet conditions, just before the vehicle comes to a halt. However, this does not affect the brakes' performance, operational safety or stability."


That explains the persistent low speed squeal in f30 M Sport pads.

[gago1101]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think you are misinterpreting the text. The way I read it, is that wear/tear items are covered if they are worn past the BMW acceptable wear limit. This has nothing to do with how fast they have worn down. For example if your brake pads are totally worn down, even if this occurred at less mileage than expected, BMW will replace them. However, if the pads are only half worn (above the wear threshold), they will not replace them.

As far as being covered for track days and HPDE, the term "competitive events" is very specific. Track days and HPDEs are not considered competitive events.

Agree, competitive event means wheel-to-wheel racing to me. Tracking the car every other month for fun should be okay.

[gago1101]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Ok, that's actually a plausible interpretation that hadn't occurred to me. I still remember reading fine print about Ultimate Service somewhere that excluded wear they deemed excessive, and there are plenty of posts here of people who got denied another set of brake pads because they'd already gotten more than BMW considered reasonable. I just apparently haven't found the right documentation.

I'm not arguing that HPDEs could be construed as "competitive motorsports". I'm just pointing out that in the warranty coverage, the wording makes it unclear whether they're excluding only competitive motorsports or any driving on a race track. They claim that race track usage results in a higher rate of wear, then mention that the M3 isn't designed for competitive motorsports (not the same thing), then say that "this wear is not covered by the warranty". So what does the "this wear" refer to? The increased wear they mentioned was the type of wear incurred from (general) race track usage, but the sentence immediately prior pertained only to competitive motorsports, and made no specific mention of wear rates. So it's a bit ambiguous.

All will depend on how good of a lawyer you have, LOL.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gago1101

Agree, competitive event means wheel-to-wheel racing to me. Tracking the car every other month for fun should be okay.

I believe time trials are also considered competitive events, so it is not limited to wheel to wheel racing.

[KevN27]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

I agree with you mostly. But its not about breaking even or a value proposition, its about defraying the initial expenditure to a level where its worth it (different for each individual).

My point is simply that its not an $8k investment over time, its less than that, potentially lots less than that. Maybe its only a $4k investment plus saved time from going to a shop/dealer for each brake job (rotors not pads). Anyway, its not as simple as a flat $8k. For added benefits already mentioned in the article (plus no dust). Again, valued differently for different people. I don't think anyone is saying CCB is cheaper.

Agree completely. Especially if you plan to get aftermarket BBK the fronts alone will cost near $4k. The initial 8K is shying away a lot of people.
But remember 4.3K only get you parking sensors and headlight washers.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Ok, that's actually a plausible interpretation that hadn't occurred to me. I still remember reading fine print about Ultimate Service somewhere that excluded wear they deemed excessive, and there are plenty of posts here of people who got denied another set of brake pads because they'd already gotten more than BMW considered reasonable. I just apparently haven't found the right documentation.

I think their bail out clause is the one that refers to "Exclusions from coverage... ...wear and tear or deterioration due to driving habits or conditions".

Originally Posted by jphughan

I'm not arguing that HPDEs could be construed as "competitive motorsports". I'm just pointing out that in the warranty coverage, the wording makes it unclear whether they're excluding only competitive motorsports or any driving on a race track. They claim that race track usage results in a higher rate of wear, then mention that the M3 isn't designed for competitive motorsports (not the same thing), then say that "this wear is not covered by the warranty". So what does the "this wear" refer to? The increased wear they mentioned was the type of wear incurred from (general) race track usage, but the sentence immediately prior pertained only to competitive motorsports, and made no specific mention of wear rates. So it's a bit ambiguous.

You are right, the text is unclear and ambiguous in this respect.

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by gago1101

I read in many posts that CCBs are not covered by maintenance. I see no mention anywhere on the website that it is not covered. I think it used to say in small print for the M5 CCB option, but that has been removed. I also don't see how BMW can refuse to change them even if you track the car. These cars supposed to be made for occasional tracking.

My dealer told me they were not covered by maintenance program. Probably due to the fact that smallest ding on the rotors causes them to explode. I wonder if anyone has had to get them replaced and what did they do to wear the brakes out so quickly

[Hedoniste]

My M Perf pads squeal:

[991brothers]

Since I am financing the car, Carbon Ceramic brakes wont make that much of a difference. Ive always wanted a BBK

[Em/1]

Originally Posted by KillrM3

So who is going to be the first to put CCB on an E92 M3?

I'm sure someone already has since there is a guy on 1M forum that did.

[dreamspeed]

So it only took them roughly 30yrs to put something besides single piston sliding calipers on the M3? Lol

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by Powaup

My dealer told me they were not covered by maintenance program. Probably due to the fact that smallest ding on the rotors causes them to explode. I wonder if anyone has had to get them replaced and what did they do to wear the brakes out so quickly

Your dealer is probably unaware of the change. They definitely are covered now. Confirmed by BMW NA and the M5 guys that have gotten CCB. It was only the first year that they were uncovered.

But the point is largely irrelevant: They will last the life of the car under normal use, so no money out of dealers pocket. And if you track the car, they will void the Maintenance program on the CCB, also no money out of dealers pocket.

As for wear, I don't think anyone around here has worn them yet. The largest dealer that has sold CCB around here told me they have yet to replace a set of pads. That can mean anything tho (maybe the ppl that got CCB don't put many miles on their cars, maybe they got them done somewhere else, who knows)

[Randy M]

Originally Posted by gago1101

I also don't see how BMW can refuse to change them even if you track the car. These cars supposed to be made for occasional tracking.

Lol. My old GT3 was built for track duty. But if Porsche finds out that you track the car they will not honor the warranty.