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      05-14-2014, 08:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by kgroschi View Post
Sick! My respect. Your last comment seemed not very fighter pilot like though haha. I fly planes too but only singles and twins and helicopters... Can I ask what you're flying? Even this is a BMW forum and not a Northrup Grumman Forum lol.
I fly F-18's. Been flying since age 16. Cool that you fly too.
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      05-14-2014, 09:02 PM   #68
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Here is what I think...

First off... who doesn't like large displacement V8s? I can think of no one.
2nd... I am not buying the C63 is superior in any way to the M4... I've driven one and it takes the cake in the engine department but outside of that... no thanks.
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      05-14-2014, 09:03 PM   #69
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I'd be happy with either but no doubt the AMG sounds more exciting...V8's, nature of the beast.
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      05-14-2014, 09:07 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondula
I think I am a pretty good person to comment on this being I have owned both a 2013 M3 and a 2013 C63..

I had a 2013 M3 and totaled it. I know it doesn't look that bad from the pics, but the frame of the car was not straight and once that happens on a race car, it will never drive correct again. They set it on a laser jig and measured exactly. I was so upset being it only had a couple thousand miles on it.. just ended it's break in period and I had a little too much fun late at night. road was clear and it was late, no one in sight.. tried my hand at drifting around a round about and forgot traction was off as I had it in launch mode prior.. spun out through a couple light poles in the round about at around 2AM.

anyways, all the dealers were playing games and being they stopped production on the 2013 M3, no one would trade and everyone wanted above sticker from the couple that were left out there..




So I went with a Mercedes c63 coupe to hold me over as this was the closest thing to replace the M with performance wise..



First, let me start with saying that I was a Mercedes fan before I ordered this car. Having read and watched mostly all positive reviews, plus Jeremy Clarkson calling this car an "axe murderer with headlights" I was sold and ordered the car blind.

Mercedes service is terrible. There are rude and snotty people at every luxury car dealer, but the main point is, everything is la carte with Mercedes. Comes with nothing. Not like bmw that covers oil brakes etc.. Mercedes charges you top dollar and gives you nothing. They are more money in every respect compared to a BMW.. More to insure, More $$ for registration by over 100 bucks.

For a quick example, after 1500 miles, Mercedes said it needed oil. took it to the dealer and they said its normal for these AMG engines to burn oil. I am not driving it hard enough to melt the seals the service guy said. Now if I drove the car any harder, I would kill myself... They charged me 100 bucks to top it off with oil and sent me on my way. You would think that would have been covered, But it wasn't. Oh yes, I put up a fight and got no where...

Not to mention, the failure Mercedes made to fix a couple other problems the car was having. Just bad service all the way around. I was told by a Mercedes salesmen that in Germany, Mercedes head is so big, they don't care what anyone else is doing with their cars because they think they are the best.

The Best? Well, I don't think so. The interior of the C63 in my opinion is very plain and dated.. Almost cheap feeling. No nice finishings or extra details aside from AMG badging in the seats. illuminated AMG door sills I paid a lot for.. The only thing and I mean the ONLY thing this car has going for it is the hand built engine. That I will say is good quality and sounds nice. It is not a 6.3 even tho they mark it as one.. false advertising I say as the engine is a 6.2L.

The c63 is amazing and fast in a straight line.. But so is a mustang 5.0 for a little more than quarter the price.

I was so disappointed from the day I drove off the lot with the c63..
The thing is, BMW gives you so much bang for your buck. Their attention to details far exceeds Mercedes. I am not speaking for all car models, I am simply comparing c63 to M3.

Mercedes c63 has a very uncomfortable ride for a daily driving car compared to the M3. I read that the c63 was better for daily driving and boy were they wrong.

You would think that Mercedes would even give you a rear slip diff standard and they don't.. they want to charge you for every single little thing.. The M3 2013 comes with carbon fiber trim.. Mercedes wants $2800 for carbon. My car came with UGLY wood trim that I had painted custom to black within a week of having the car. Mercedes lease turn in fee is $595 vs BMW's $350..

Not to mention, when Mercedes gets you in a lease, boy do they want to keep you there.. I have broken several leases in my day. This is the first time I have ever leased a car and the starting payoff of the car was not on the discounted price. They calculate the monthly payments based on the discounted price, BUT the payoff on the car the day you sign is for the full MSRP. There for it is next to impossible to get out of the car.

The handling of the C63 is not so great compared to a M3. Very heavy in the rear for the c63..

The trans is HORRIBLE in the C63... Mercedes calls is a "Multi Clutch" Gear box to once again, fool people. It is NOT a dual clutch. The c63 Multi clutch just means you have a wet startup clutch, that's it. There are no two clutches working together. The car is incredibly delayed on shifting and never listens. I kept thinking to myself "how can Mercedes still produce a car like this for this kind of price when everyone else has already switched to newer technology?" BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Lots of plastic on the interior, not much tech, Mercedes kept it very simple with this car. I read so many reviews and comments on forums of how much people love the c63. These people must have never personally owned a BMW because if they did, I feel they would never look back.

So I broke the lease, took a HUGE hit all so I can get into an M4 that is currently at port waiting to be shipped. I don't think I have ever been so unhappy with a performance car. I have had a few and this by far was my least favorite.

So when I watch this review above even though it was a 507 package c63 which only unlocks the engine, different shifter fabric, steering wheel fabric and a vented hood that is just for looks, this guy must be smoking crack to think it's better. with all the toys the M4 has... The c63 is only good for it's engine, has nothing else to offer. Any BMW M is such a well balanced car and not only drives around a track faster, but is quick in a straight line and performs everything very well, The M is the complete package. Who cares about straight line performance?

I would rather have a car that does everything really well, instead of one thing just great.

Really sorry to offend any benz fans out there. I truly think benz pays off many reviewers to bolster the review of their cars.. They are powerful enough to do so and wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Call me crazy, but I feel the M3 I had was the most well rounded car I have ever had.
Epic response! thanks for the Insights
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      05-14-2014, 09:11 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinim3 View Post
Yes you're definitely in the minority in regards to the sound of the AMG

I'm really curious why so many folks on here are so eager to defend BMW? My thinking (and I suspect a few auto journalists like Sutcliffe's thinking) is that the less enthusiam we show and the less we settle for the changes BMW is imposing on us, the more likely BMW will build a better car (competition version can't come soon enough). Today more so than ever consumers can shape the direction of a brand.

And let's not use regulations and emissions as a scapegoat because every other OEM has to play by the same rules and in fact the true measure is how OEMs adapt to the new rules while still keeping its core DNA.

Nobody is saying BMW didn't build a great car, what some are questioning is did they build the best car they could build? Still inconclusive of course.
+1

Critism keeps them honest and on top of their game. Don't want them making cars no one likes and loosing their core customer or their fabric a la like GM/Chrysler.

Can I add...
1st head to head review! I'll pick the M4 over that C63 anyday. He probably has a point about the engine and the sound though...which is inherent to turbocharging(Not even the 911 is immune) And will be the same criticism with the new C63 turbo. Bring on the competition package. It will be damn near perfect.

Wish list '15 M3 ZCP comp package ~ retuned engine = 444 HP 424 lbs touque moved up 500rpms range higher. +300 rpm redline. Retuned stearing and MPE. $1000 w/ the silly exec package. Lol wishful thing.
Wishful thinking but deff a 10/10.

Last edited by TheIceStormOf06; 05-14-2014 at 09:22 PM..
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      05-14-2014, 09:15 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
I fly F-18's. Been flying since age 16. Cool that you fly too.
Cool! Sick plane. Ya I have been flying since I was 14. Soloed on my 16th birthday. I love Aviation... and really respect fighter pilots a lot. I guess ur at KEDW?
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      05-14-2014, 09:16 PM   #73
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I think that the M4 is much better in every aspect than the AMG, but i have to say that the AMG sounds so good...
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      05-14-2014, 09:17 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondula View Post
I think I am a pretty good person to comment on this being I have owned both a 2013 M3 and a 2013 C63..

I had a 2013 M3 and totaled it. I know it doesn't look that bad from the pics, but the frame of the car was not straight and once that happens on a race car, it will never drive correct again. They set it on a laser jig and measured exactly. I was so upset being it only had a couple thousand miles on it.. just ended it's break in period and I had a little too much fun late at night. road was clear and it was late, no one in sight.. tried my hand at drifting around a round about and forgot traction was off as I had it in launch mode prior.. spun out through a couple light poles in the round about at around 2AM.

anyways, all the dealers were playing games and being they stopped production on the 2013 M3, no one would trade and everyone wanted above sticker from the couple that were left out there..




So I went with a Mercedes c63 coupe to hold me over as this was the closest thing to replace the M with performance wise..



First, let me start with saying that I was a Mercedes fan before I ordered this car. Having read and watched mostly all positive reviews, plus Jeremy Clarkson calling this car an "axe murderer with headlights" I was sold and ordered the car blind.

Mercedes service is terrible. There are rude and snotty people at every luxury car dealer, but the main point is, everything is la carte with Mercedes. Comes with nothing. Not like bmw that covers oil brakes etc.. Mercedes charges you top dollar and gives you nothing. They are more money in every respect compared to a BMW.. More to insure, More $$ for registration by over 100 bucks.

For a quick example, after 1500 miles, Mercedes said it needed oil. took it to the dealer and they said its normal for these AMG engines to burn oil. I am not driving it hard enough to melt the seals the service guy said. Now if I drove the car any harder, I would kill myself... They charged me 100 bucks to top it off with oil and sent me on my way. You would think that would have been covered, But it wasn't. Oh yes, I put up a fight and got no where...

Not to mention, the failure Mercedes made to fix a couple other problems the car was having. Just bad service all the way around. I was told by a Mercedes salesmen that in Germany, Mercedes head is so big, they don't care what anyone else is doing with their cars because they think they are the best.

The Best? Well, I don't think so. The interior of the C63 in my opinion is very plain and dated.. Almost cheap feeling. No nice finishings or extra details aside from AMG badging in the seats. illuminated AMG door sills I paid a lot for.. The only thing and I mean the ONLY thing this car has going for it is the hand built engine. That I will say is good quality and sounds nice. It is not a 6.3 even tho they mark it as one.. false advertising I say as the engine is a 6.2L.

The c63 is amazing and fast in a straight line.. But so is a mustang 5.0 for a little more than quarter the price.

I was so disappointed from the day I drove off the lot with the c63..
The thing is, BMW gives you so much bang for your buck. Their attention to details far exceeds Mercedes. I am not speaking for all car models, I am simply comparing c63 to M3.

Mercedes c63 has a very uncomfortable ride for a daily driving car compared to the M3. I read that the c63 was better for daily driving and boy were they wrong.

You would think that Mercedes would even give you a rear slip diff standard and they don't.. they want to charge you for every single little thing.. The M3 2013 comes with carbon fiber trim.. Mercedes wants $2800 for carbon. My car came with UGLY wood trim that I had painted custom to black within a week of having the car. Mercedes lease turn in fee is $595 vs BMW's $350..

Not to mention, when Mercedes gets you in a lease, boy do they want to keep you there.. I have broken several leases in my day. This is the first time I have ever leased a car and the starting payoff of the car was not on the discounted price. They calculate the monthly payments based on the discounted price, BUT the payoff on the car the day you sign is for the full MSRP. There for it is next to impossible to get out of the car.

The handling of the C63 is not so great compared to a M3. Very heavy in the rear for the c63..

The trans is HORRIBLE in the C63... Mercedes calls is a "Multi Clutch" Gear box to once again, fool people. It is NOT a dual clutch. The c63 Multi clutch just means you have a wet startup clutch, that's it. There are no two clutches working together. The car is incredibly delayed on shifting and never listens. I kept thinking to myself "how can Mercedes still produce a car like this for this kind of price when everyone else has already switched to newer technology?" BECAUSE THEY CAN!

Lots of plastic on the interior, not much tech, Mercedes kept it very simple with this car. I read so many reviews and comments on forums of how much people love the c63. These people must have never personally owned a BMW because if they did, I feel they would never look back.

So I broke the lease, took a HUGE hit all so I can get into an M4 that is currently at port waiting to be shipped. I don't think I have ever been so unhappy with a performance car. I have had a few and this by far was my least favorite.

So when I watch this review above even though it was a 507 package c63 which only unlocks the engine, different shifter fabric, steering wheel fabric and a vented hood that is just for looks, this guy must be smoking crack to think it's better. with all the toys the M4 has... The c63 is only good for it's engine, has nothing else to offer. Any BMW M is such a well balanced car and not only drives around a track faster, but is quick in a straight line and performs everything very well, The M is the complete package. Who cares about straight line performance?

I would rather have a car that does everything really well, instead of one thing just great.

Really sorry to offend any benz fans out there. I truly think benz pays off many reviewers to bolster the review of their cars.. They are powerful enough to do so and wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Call me crazy, but I feel the M3 I had was the most well rounded car I have ever had.
Good post and good points. Damn. Even wrecked the M3 looks better than the Benz. M is better on it's worst day. Lol
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      05-14-2014, 09:20 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Suave View Post
Epic response! thanks for the Insights
I have learned one thing. If Sutcliffe would've preferred the M, he would've been praised as a genius. But because he didn't, he's an AMG fanboy (which is ludicrous since he heaped praise upon the F80 M3 not more than a few days ago).
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      05-14-2014, 09:24 PM   #76
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Cool! Sick plane. Ya I have been flying since I was 14. Soloed on my 16th birthday. I love Aviation... and really respect fighter pilots a lot. I guess ur at KEDW?
I'm in Fort Worth. My profile might not be up to date. Headed back to CA though. 16th? Awesome! Mine was shortly after with cert ride shortly after my 17th.

I guess the only other thing I'll add is anyone who ever thought BMW was more loyal to any enthusiast or purist than it was to profits was kind of fooling themselves. If you appreciate capitalism, and like great cars, you want BMW to make as much money as possible, even if it means disappointing a few "fans" especially considering fan is the root word of fanatic.

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      05-14-2014, 09:30 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suave View Post
Epic response! thanks for the Insights
I have learned one thing. If Sutcliffe would've preferred the M, he would've been praised as a genius. But because he didn't, he's an AMG fanboy (which is ludicrous since he heaped praise upon the F80 M3 not more than a few days ago).
His last review was not all that good either. He complained on that one too about same things
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      05-14-2014, 09:33 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_bm View Post
Had mine with performance package that came with all the goodies.
The seats were super uncomfortable during longer commute.
Steering was very light even when pushing the car. The ride quality was definitely worse compared to an M3 with competition package driven in the city. And you could feel that extra weight pretty much in any driving situation other than cruising on a highway.
Overall the car did not feel as a complete package.
That's interesting. I find the steering feel of the C63 to be one of the best attributes about the car. It is consistently heavy, provided plenty of feedback. I can always feel what the front wheels/tires are doing.

The only time I can feel the car's weight is when I introduce oversteer. Takes some practice reeling the rear end back in.

And I've found that the seats (I have a sedan) are the most supportive and comfortable I've ever used on a daily basis. If someone is on the heavy side, they definitely won't find them comfortable.

I'm glad that the new M3 is finally getting more heavily bolstered seats.
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      05-14-2014, 09:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by chiplee View Post
IWhat matters to me when I spend money is to get the most bang for the buck; the best of all possible worlds. That is torque on tap from an engine that won't penalize me with 15mpg every time I move the car. I want comfort, versatility, dare I say "practicality" if such a thing exists in the $60k+ realm. I just don't know who is doing that better this year than BMW. Those are all my important factors though and yes, "different strokes", "to each his/her own", etc.
Alpina D3

Of course that car wouldn't exist without BMW so your statement holds true.
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      05-14-2014, 09:38 PM   #80
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Quote:
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His last review was not all that good either. He complained on that one too about same things
He loved the chassis, the brakes, the value, the steering, and virtually everything about the car except the motor. And his beef with the motor was with the sound and throttle response.

It's not going to feel the same as normally aspirated car. That doesn't make it bad but he has a duty to point out the differences.

Chris Harris also publicly said he preferred the W204 C63 to the E9X M3 and he's a diehard BMW fan.

I too am about as big of a BMW fan as one can be (F80 on order) but I just laugh when I see all of these "myths" perpetuated about the C63. It's an outstanding all-around performer, which is why I won't be getting rid of it for a long, long time.
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      05-14-2014, 09:38 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy335 View Post
Alpina D3

Of course that car wouldn't exist without BMW so your statement holds true.
Point taken, but prefer just a touch more sex than that. Think M3 kinda owns in that department for my taste. Which is highly refined, btw. Lol.
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      05-14-2014, 09:52 PM   #82
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All of these "reviews" are lacking.
I really do not car to see some guy drifting the car around. Useless.
I am sure more in depth comparisons/tests will come, but listening to these recent reviews is disappointing. They are more like "first drives"
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      05-14-2014, 09:56 PM   #83
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All of these "reviews" are lacking.
I really do not car to see some guy drifting the car around. Useless.
"
+1000!!

What is it with car mag's these days....they are all doing it.....how many people buy a car cos it is easy to drift?! It pisses me off how it is such a focus.
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      05-14-2014, 10:01 PM   #84
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+1000!!

What is it with car mag's these days....they are all doing it.....how many people buy a car cos it is easy to drift?! It pisses me off how it is such a focus.
Along that same line, it drives me crazy when all of these reviews take place on idyllic canyon or country roads.

The vast majority of us will be spending most of our time grinding it out in traffic or on the interstate. Once in a while, I'd like to see how livable/practical the car is in those conditions.
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      05-14-2014, 10:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
First comparo and beaten by a 440 lbs heavier Benz in driver excitement and steering feel.
Well not just that but beaten by a car that the E9x M3 beat, often.
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      05-14-2014, 10:09 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suave View Post
His last review was not all that good either. He complained on that one too about same things
He loved the chassis, the brakes, the value, the steering, and virtually everything about the car except the motor. And his beef with the motor was with the sound and throttle response.

It's not going to feel the same as normally aspirated car. That doesn't make it bad but he has a duty to point out the differences.

Chris Harris also publicly said he preferred the W204 C63 to the E9X M3 and he's a diehard BMW fan.

I too am about as big of a BMW fan as one can be (F80 on order) but I just laugh when I see all of these "myths" perpetuated about the C63. It's an outstanding all-around performer, which is why I won't be getting rid of it for a long, long time.
To add to the burn, Harris even owned and made a couple of videos of his Alpine White E92 M3 back in the day when it first came out.

I think that's when he was with Driver's Republic or Autocar, well before /Drive was even a thing.
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      05-14-2014, 10:24 PM   #87
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Chris Harris, where is your review damnit!?!?!
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      05-14-2014, 10:28 PM   #88
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I had 3 e92 m3's and 2 mb c63's

M3 is a more balanced car but I prefer the C63
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