GetBMWParts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-12-2020, 06:26 PM   #111
s55jesus
M Enthusiast
s55jesus's Avatar
438
Rep
624
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Palos Verdes Estates, CA

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
  [0.00]
I agree with the man above me.

OP, I actually understand where you're coming from though when you say you want to keep the car. Like my earlier post, I'm actually looking for a 2018 YMB ZCP w/ CCB right now. I know there is only 1 left in the country that fits that description and that is the one Century West is selling thats a M driving school car. I would just return the car to BMW and walk away when you have the chance.

As of me writing this, there are only 57 2018 F80's in the country that are 2018 with less than 30k miles and no accidents. But when the G80 is released, and that's happening this month, I'm assuming more F80's will come to the market with lowered prices. Just my 2 cents. I'm just waiting for that perfect spec to pop up.
__________________
2018 F80 M3 ZCP - CCB - MPE - BBS RI-D - Pure Turbos Stage 2+ - 3D Design Bumper - KW Clubsport 3 Way - Cary Jordan E85 Tuned
2021 F97 X3MC
2017 F30 340i (SOLD)
2015 F82 M4 (SOLD)
Appreciate 0
      09-12-2020, 06:34 PM   #112
bmwmdistrict
Major
bmwmdistrict's Avatar
United_States
908
Rep
1,044
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3M
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: NoVa

iTrader: (10)

Garage List
2020 BMW X3MC  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eff80m3 View Post
I agree with the man above me.

OP, I actually understand where you're coming from though when you say you want to keep the car. Like my earlier post, I'm actually looking for a 2018 YMB ZCP w/ CCB right now. I know there is only 1 left in the country that fits that description and that is the one Century West is selling thats a M driving school car. I would just return the car to BMW and walk away when you have the chance.

As of me writing this, there are only 57 2018 F80's in the country that are 2018 with less than 30k miles and no accidents. But when the G80 is released, and that's happening this month, I'm assuming more F80's will come to the market with lowered prices. Just my 2 cents. I'm just waiting for that perfect spec to pop up.
This is a great point. We're still probably a year out I imagine from the G chassis M3/M4, but no doubt more F8x M3/M4 will hit the market soon.

The real question here is how patient you want to be. You have one in possession that is what you want, but the risks of keeping it are in my opinion far too high. If you can wait, maybe even up to a year, you may likely get what you want or compromise for a close second choice. But even a compromise in my book (let's say an option or color) far outweighs rolling the dice with this tracked M in your possession.

Just my two cents.

And seriously... if you're getting close to choosing to get rid of this car, please just park it and don't agree to anything without an attorney at this point. BMWNA may be very easy to work with right now because they are likely thinking they can get you to agree to keep it. It's in their best interest. But their tone many change quick once you demand a clean exit.
__________________
Rob | instagram
2020 F97 X3 ///M Donington Grey
2018 G01 X3 xDrive30i Alpine White
Previous: 2016 F82 ///M4 Black Sapphire Metallic | My Build Thread
Appreciate 0
      09-12-2020, 07:55 PM   #113
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
2539
Rep
3,967
Posts

Drives: 2011 1M/2021 992/2023 X3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsm.m4 View Post
All of this sounds great that BMW is apparently trying to salvage the sale. But in my opinion, I would still turn it in. If you can completely walk away, without having to buy another BMW on the spot, do it. If you're forced to buy another BMW then that's going to be difficult given your shortlist of requirements.

There's a lot that may never happen to the car but there's way too many unknowns here. The fact that there's zero documentation of this car while it was under BMW ownership is basically a black hole. This car is a wild card and you don't know what you're in for in another 20, 30, 40K miles. Yes - same can be said for any car. But this is different - it's been driven very aggressively and has 0 documentation. No break-in. Just beat on for 10K miles.

I see you're also stuck with a third party warranty. Those are basically worthless. Unless BMW is willing to provide a warranty (doesn't have to be CPO) I wouldn't touch this car.

I would park this car and don't agree to anymore repairs, concessions, etc. as the more you do, the more they'll likely say you're stuck with it.
BMW does not sell cars to people in the US. Dealers do. Don't blame BMW here. Dealers are independent organizations. His beef is with the dealer, not BMW.
__________________
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
2021 911 C4S Gentian Blue, manual
2023 X3 M40i - loaded sans Park Assist
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2020, 08:21 AM   #114
IB M
Brigadier General
2766
Rep
4,239
Posts

Drives: 2017 M3 MG/SO ZCP DCT
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2017 BMW M3  [8.50]
2013 BMW M3  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
BMW does not sell cars to people in the US. Dealers do. Don't blame BMW here. Dealers are independent organizations. His beef is with the dealer, not BMW.
BMW Corporate is aware of and enables this practice. Like a parent that allows their 12 year old kid to misbehave - you don't blame the kid you blame the adults.
Appreciate 2
      09-13-2020, 10:41 AM   #115
dardeca
Major
dardeca's Avatar
United_States
499
Rep
1,313
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5 Competition
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (2)

Interesting read...looking forward to see what BMWNA does in terms of stepping up to rectify the issue.
__________________
E92 M3 Supplemental manual p.38: "The laws of physics cannot be repealed, even with DSC."
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2020, 10:54 AM   #116
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
2539
Rep
3,967
Posts

Drives: 2011 1M/2021 992/2023 X3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IB M View Post
BMW Corporate is aware of and enables this practice. Like a parent that allows their 12 year old kid to misbehave - you don't blame the kid you blame the adults.
Ha! Alas, what does BMW allow exactly? They auction these cars off and they require that "independent dealer" have the buyer sign something they are aware.

Now look, not trying to bash the OP, but I'm sure someone's lawyer will get involved here and that signature page that says "Driving Program" will turn into a full on "What a driving program is, could be, and possibly was".

And, it is a good lesson - if something is written on a piece of paper and you don't know what it means "ask".

But no, short of crushing the cars, auctioning them off to a dealer is NOT allowing the dealer to misbehave.
__________________
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
2021 911 C4S Gentian Blue, manual
2023 X3 M40i - loaded sans Park Assist
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2020, 01:52 PM   #117
LVI
BMW Veteran
United_States
310
Rep
503
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Midwest

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
Ha! Alas, what does BMW allow exactly? They auction these cars off and they require that "independent dealer" have the buyer sign something they are aware.

Now look, not trying to bash the OP, but I'm sure someone's lawyer will get involved here and that signature page that says "Driving Program" will turn into a full on "What a driving program is, could be, and possibly was".

And, it is a good lesson - if something is written on a piece of paper and you don't know what it means "ask".

But no, short of crushing the cars, auctioning them off to a dealer is NOT allowing the dealer to misbehave.
I'm willing to bet BMW NA gets several calls about these cars every year, from people who were provided various levels of disclosure(or lack thereof) about how they were actually used. This isn't a novel issue - it's been happening for years. If BMW NA really cared about transparency, after several years of "misunderstandings" they would brand these cars like GM does (salvage, with disclosure), prior to wholesaling them, or craft a mandatory standardized disclosure form and mandate every BMW retailer to have the customer sign it upon purchase.

Instead of the above, they have chosen the most lucrative route, which is to rely on the dealership to provide their own disclosures as they see fit, and in turn get the most bang for the buck for the cars at auction. Dealers buy (and typically sell) these cars slightly under market, given the excessive wear and tear that is almost always very apparent. Like with anything else, some dealers are ethical, and clearly disclose their history, and some get creative and conceal it as much as possible, through the use of ambiguous terminology. That said, I believe in this particular instance, the OP could've put 2 and 2 together and fairly easily figured out that there was a story with this car, given that he was clearly told the car was tracked, even though it wasn't exactly spelled in the written disclosure. To what extent he understood the true history of the car, we'll never really know.

OP would be best served to decide which way he wants to go - i.e. keep the car and demand repairs be made, or return it and have the dealer unwind the deal. I would certainly avoid sending mixed signals, as that could later be construed as not negotiating in good faith. I would avoid asking for extraordinary repairs or anything of the sort unless he is absolutely sure he wants to keep the car. If a return is what he is after, he should focus on that angle, and perhaps consult with a lemon law expert for advice.

best of luck
Appreciate 2
arashir164.00
MFNATIK3487.00
      10-01-2020, 06:10 PM   #118
MyNameIsNotSure
Private First Class
47
Rep
159
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Ventura, CA

iTrader: (0)

To update: I have been very firm with BMW NA about unwinding the deal and returning the car. Their highest-echelon customer service rep finally got back to me a couple weeks later and told me that after an internal investigation they decided they won't unwind the deal at this time seeing as adequate disclosure was made (i.e. I signed the form saying "driving program").

What really blew my mind is that when I was pleading my case to him and explaining that to me "driving program" didn't equal "track school beater", he also started singing the same song as the dealership director--he told me that "driving program" doesn't necessarily mean it was used at the performance driving school and they don't have the means to confirm whether it was ever used at the track .

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here because clearly it's a track car not only due to the whole pen thing but my local dealership (BMW of Santa Barbara) reached out to the driving school at Thermal and confirmed it was a track car when I asked them to see if it was maintained properly. I just can't believe BMW NA would give me the runaround like that, at least be straight with me at this point. At the end, the rep did say they will go over and review my case again.

My attorney has said that the best route to go is a lemon law claim so that's what I'll be trying if the review doesn't go my way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding the mechanical issues:

The misfires seem to have disappeared after replacing all the plugs/coils but it still has the vibration in the whole car but most noticeably in the steering wheel under high engine load. It only happens in a certain RPM range (~3.5k-5.5k) in gears 3 and up, especially noticeable going uphill. It's not a wheel balance issue since it's not road speed dependent. Here's a few threads on it if anyone's interested:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1367135
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1409452
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1370460

My local service department called it normal behavior but still had the BMW regional field engineer test drive it....and he agreed. Seems like that happened to a couple other people in the above threads but a few others got their diffs and/or driveshafts replaced so it seems BMW isn't too consistent with its definition of normal behavior. Would honestly be a relief to hear from some others here if they feel something similar and maybe it is normal
Appreciate 0
      10-01-2020, 06:59 PM   #119
joooiiiiii
Lieutenant
joooiiiiii's Avatar
United_States
439
Rep
418
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW M3 ZCP
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure View Post
To update: I have been very firm with BMW NA about unwinding the deal and returning the car. Their highest-echelon customer service rep finally got back to me a couple weeks later and told me that after an internal investigation they decided they won't unwind the deal at this time seeing as adequate disclosure was made (i.e. I signed the form saying "driving program").

What really blew my mind is that when I was pleading my case to him and explaining that to me "driving program" didn't equal "track school beater", he also started singing the same song as the dealership director--he told me that "driving program" doesn't necessarily mean it was used at the performance driving school and they don't have the means to confirm whether it was ever used at the track .

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here because clearly it's a track car not only due to the whole pen thing but my local dealership (BMW of Santa Barbara) reached out to the driving school at Thermal and confirmed it was a track car when I asked them to see if it was maintained properly. I just can't believe BMW NA would give me the runaround like that, at least be straight with me at this point. At the end, the rep did say they will go over and review my case again.

My attorney has said that the best route to go is a lemon law claim so that's what I'll be trying if the review doesn't go my way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding the mechanical issues:

The misfires seem to have disappeared after replacing all the plugs/coils but it still has the vibration in the whole car but most noticeably in the steering wheel under high engine load. It only happens in a certain RPM range (~3.5k-5.5k) in gears 3 and up, especially noticeable going uphill. It's not a wheel balance issue since it's not road speed dependent. Here's a few threads on it if anyone's interested:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1367135
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1409452
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1370460

My local service department called it normal behavior but still had the BMW regional field engineer test drive it....and he agreed. Seems like that happened to a couple other people in the above threads but a few others got their diffs and/or driveshafts replaced so it seems BMW isn't too consistent with its definition of normal behavior. Would honestly be a relief to hear from some others here if they feel something similar and maybe it is normal
Read all of your posts--if it was me in the same, current predicament that you are in, I would have tried to return the car also. What a freaking headache man. If BMW NA and the dealership told me to kick rocks like they did--for damn sure, I'm spending money on a lawyer to sue the hell out of them. Get all the documents you can about the car being at that track school, annotate all conversations (Date, time) and what was said on a document to reference.

No way in hell am I gonna just lay down and take it without a fight. You deserve better, especially for FULL PRICE. Good luck and keep us updated.
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2020, 10:16 PM   #120
izzyM2
Major
izzyM2's Avatar
641
Rep
1,207
Posts

Drives: 24’M2/21ID.4/21’MacanGTS
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

I don't mind buying demo cars as we got our previous GLC63 with 2k miles considered demo (driven by the dealer owner) and saved us a whopping 23% off msrp. But I would not buy one either sight unseen.

Just got me a CPO M3 comp 2018 only 7k miles and still feels new inside (zero leather creases). My salesman actually special ordered and sold the same car brand new to the previous owner. He rides motorbikes on a regular bases and thus hardly drove the car. This is as close as I want in buying used cars. Rest of our cars are brand new, because we are so anal about where the hell a used car came from.

This said, nothing here should have been blamed on you. You were blind sided by the CPO tag and not getting the full disclosure and to sell you a car the dealership did not even bother to recondition is just messed up. Keep on fighting and hopefully you will win.

I thought one time I saw a thread about an M2 owner who did the European delivery and he had a mishap with the car while driving around Germany. I'm not even sure who's really fault it was but besides the car being fully repaired by BMW he was offered a full exchange of a new car or $10k worth of M performance parts. Everyone was like that's a hell of CS from BMW there.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2020, 06:23 AM   #121
USSEnterprise
Second Lieutenant
134
Rep
257
Posts

Drives: 18 M3 CS
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: DFW

iTrader: (3)

If you went as far as signing paperwork that says "driving program" then why are you claiming to be outraged now? Come on OP, step up and take some responsibility. The signs were always there and you acknowledged them.
Appreciate 1
PhatLyfe984.00
      12-19-2020, 01:16 PM   #122
R N M
Colonel
R N M's Avatar
3620
Rep
2,048
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 BMW M3  [0.00]
Can you post the “Driving Program” disclaimer that you signed?

If that mentions track use then you really don’t have that much of a case unfortunately.
Appreciate 0
      01-20-2021, 10:03 PM   #123
Mar48
Colonel
Mar48's Avatar
1098
Rep
2,108
Posts

Drives: '22 M3 Comp xDrive - Atlantis
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MN

iTrader: (1)

Any update?
__________________
IG: SirLanzelotte
Individual Atlantis Metallic G80 M3 Competition xDrive
2015 Audi Allroad P+ Brilliant Black/Black

Past: F80 M3/Z4MR/E46 M3/Z4MC/Z3MR/335Xi
Appreciate 0
      02-09-2022, 12:33 AM   #124
MyNameIsNotSure
Private First Class
47
Rep
159
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Ventura, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar48 View Post
Any update?
Life really got in the way but for a long overdue update: it's been almost 1.5 years that I've owned the car now, man time flies. I've put 22k miles on it and ever since all those initial misfires in the first 3 weeks it's ran like a charm *knocks on wood*. Not a single mechanical issue. Not one. I love the thing. It's had its share of random little rattles in the cabin (door lock latch rattle took a while to diagnose) which have been fixed under warranty, and there's still some minor ones left, but I do believe those are pretty standard on these cars. I ended up going ahead with the lemon claim anyway but BMW wouldn't bite.

As for the vibration upon acceleration--it's still there but at this point I do believe it's normal. I've driven some other M3's and felt the same thing. Honestly I don't even notice it anymore and if anything it kind of gives off more of a "racecar" feel.

Overall though, I still think it's completely ridiculous how I was treated by the dealer and especially BMW of NA. Some posters are saying it's on me since I signed the disclosure, and perhaps I should have looked into it more when I heard "demo car", I'll agree. I normally do a ton of research when it comes to buying anything (which I did extensively on this car, apart from this one thing) and usually pick up on stuff like this.

However just to clarify--all the disclosure said was that the car was part of BMW's "driving program", it mentioned nothing about track use whatsoever, it was literally a one-sentence disclosure. And when I asked the dealer about that he very casually told me it was a "demo car which means it was driven by BMW execs or used for press duty". That's it. Interestingly this is a phrase I heard from another BMW dealer as well when I was initially shopping around and saw three M3's on their lot with the same exact option configuration and similar mileages. So it's not limited to just Pacific BMW.

Again the most ludicrous part of this whole thing is that my own local dealer (BMW of Santa Barbara) confirmed to me that it was used as a track car by calling the M Performance Driving Center and cross-referencing the VIN. Yet at the end of the day BMW of NA's final OFFICIAL STATEMENT was that my dealer was wrong and there is absolutely no way for anyone to know whether or not that car has ever been used at a track. Basically "don't worry bro, it probably wasn't".

Just dirty.

Last edited by MyNameIsNotSure; 02-09-2022 at 01:22 AM..
Appreciate 1
Redacre363.50
      02-17-2022, 08:06 PM   #125
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzym3 View Post
I thought one time I saw a thread about an M2 owner who did the European delivery and he had a mishap with the car while driving around Germany. I'm not even sure who's really fault it was but besides the car being fully repaired by BMW he was offered a full exchange of a new car or $10k worth of M performance parts. Everyone was like that's a hell of CS from BMW there.
I just saw this post and I feel compelled to answer it as I have first-hand knowledge of this incident because I was part of the group that did the group Euro Delivery in May 2016 when I also took delivery of my M4 Coupe.

Here's what actually happened:

With a total of 34 people, we took delivery of 10 M2s, 2 M3s, and 2 M4s. (Not everyone attending the Tour bought a new BMW.) The event was attended by numerous BMW executives and was covered by Roundel and Via Corsa magazines. After all 14 cars were delivered, we did 2 laps around the inside of the Welt, led by a BMW GT pace car, while we all revved our engines and honked our horns. It was quite a spectacle for the other Welt visitors, overlooking the delivery floor from the balcony!

After the delivery, we proceeded to the ///M GmbH Headquarters in Garching, a few miles from the Welt. Several of the engineers who worked on the M2 gave a presentation and did a Q&A session. We had lunch in the cafeteria (I got to meet Martin Tomczyk). After lunch, we had a tour of the facility, including BMW Individual (which is under the ///M banner) and a tour of the secret warehouse. Then we left to go back to our hotel, but many of us wanted to go find some roads outside of Munich where we could do a spirited drive of our new ///Ms before dinner!

During this drive, the people who were behind "R", the owner of the M2 in question, noticed some slight smoke coming from underneath the car and it was causing a slight mist on the windshield of the car immediately behind R's M2. I was several cars back and noticed some of the white smoke. At this point, several drivers pulled off and looked underneath the car. There was obviously some fluid that had gotten sprayed onto the exhaust, but it was not determined what the fluid was. It was decided to go back to the hotel and contact BMW in the morning.

Note: At this point, I was not directly involved in dealing with the problem and was not present at any of the meetings between R and BMW, although at least 1-2 other people were, including "D", who had put the tour together. D is a good friend of mine.

The group was scheduled to leave for Italy and the Italian Dolomites the next day and it was in Italy that I learned that BMW had taken put the M2, put it up on a lift, and determined that there was a leak that appeared to have originated from a fitting on the DCT. They wanted to keep the car and run tests, so they gave R a fully loaded 7 Series, and there was an arrangement to swap the two cars back before the group left Italy. While BMW had the M2, they determined that the fitting was not properly tightened and had allowed some leaking DCT fluid to be sprayed onto the exhaust, causing the white smoke. They drained the fluid, measured it, determined that it was a minuscule amount and that the loss of that small amount of DCT fluid would not cause any damage. They tightened the fitting, refilled the DCT, steam cleaned the underneath of the car, did some test drives, determined that the leak was stopped, the DCT was working correctly, and basically resolved the problem. They delivered the M2 to where we were staying in Merano, R was re-united with his car, and after 3 days of driving the Italian Dolomites in our cars, we moved on to Switzerland to spend 3 days driving the Swiss Alps. The purpose of these day trips was to accumulate at least 2000 kms (1200 miles) so that we could get our run-in service done in Stuttgart before continuing on to the track portion of our trip the following week. The run-in service was completed for all cars in Stuttgart and the dealer did not notice any problems with R's M2 during the service.

The second week of our trip was the track portion of our trip and we spent a day at Nurburgring Nordschleife, then on to Zandvoort for a track day at Circuit Zandvoort, and finally, a track day at Spa Francorchamps. All of our cars got properly thrashed at all three tracks and most of us had to replace at least the front two tires if not all four tires, including R's M2.

During this time, we all stayed at the same hotels in various cities, and we ate most breakfasts and dinners together, and many lunches. By all accounts, R was very pleased with BMW’s attention to and resolution of the problem, although he was disappointed that he didn't get to drive his M2 (he drove the 7 Series) to Italy and missed one or two days of driving in the Italian Dolomites, although D (the trip leader) lent R his M2 and D drove the 7 Series during several legs in the Dolomites.

Unknown to any of us, R had started emailing and calling BMW to tell them how displeased he was with problems with his M2, saying it had ruined his trip, the DCT might suffer longer-term damage, he had missed the unique opportunity to drive his car for few days during the trip, it caused him duress, etc. Worst of all, he told BMW that the entire group was displeased and urged R to demand that BMW replace the car. To make up for his duress and loss of his car for a few days, he also demanded that BMW provide a bunch of M Performance parts for free. To add even more fuel to the fire, he started getting BMW CCA personnel involved in his dispute (BMW CCA had been instrumental in providing contacts and connections to help plan our trip.) He also threatened to "expose" BMW on social media if they didn't give in, making outrageous claims about his importance and his influence. Amazingly, while we were in Europe, someone at BMW had acquiesced to R's demands and promised to replace the car, with all of the M Performance parts that R had demanded, and have it delivered to his dealer, where BMW would take back his Euro-delivered and track-thrashed M2.

None of us on the trip were aware that any of this was going on behind the scenes until we returned home. That's when the shit started hitting the fan. BMW higher-ups were obviously not happy that someone had agreed to replace M's M2 and they started putting pressure on BMW CCA to get R to drop his demands. This now started placing a huge strain on the excellent relationship between BMW NA, BMW GmbH, and BMW CCA. Because R had thrown us all under the bus, and we were all BMW CCA members, BMW was blaming the Club.

Note: Here again, I have no firsthand knowledge of what actually transpired between the involved parties, although some of the emails and letters were later shared with our delivery group, and I know the people involved, I know the people in BMW CCA who made the decisions, and I know the outcome and how and why it was decided.

Members of the board at his local BMW CCA Chapter, all of whom knew R personally, and some of whom were there and had their cars delivered at the same time, tried to get him to drop his demands. He refused to budge. Higher-ups at BMW CCA had a phone call with R and tried to get him to drop his demands and accept the car that was delivered to him. No dice, he said, I have an email from BMW where they promise to replace my delivered car with a brand new one and compensate him for his inconvenience with a bunch of M Performance parts. BMW had ruined his trip with his aging father that he would not be likely to duplicate. They caused him anxiety and suffering. BMW CCA could not allow R's demands to BMW to jeopardize their relationship with BMW NA and BMW GmbH, so they threatened him with expulsion if he didn’t drop his demands. He refused all reasonable compromises. R was also a BMW CCA Driving Instructor, for several years. After input from his local chapter, input from the other people on this trip, the BMW CCA Board of Directors met and voted to expel R from the BMW CCA, and ban him from all BMW CCA events, local and national, for life, and they revoked his BMW CCA Driving Instructor status.

Our delivery group has an annual reunion each year and on the first anniversary of our trip, this whole sordid incident was explained to us in detail, copies of correspondence were shared, and first-hand accounts were told by people who were directly involved. To say that everyone was appalled was an understatement. As a group, we decided to write a letter to key personnel at BMW who had been instrumental in helping us plan the delivery, apologizing for R's behavior, his demands, and disavowing any of the actions that R had attributed to the group as justification for his demands.

Some of the assistance that BMW NA and BMW GmbH provided to us during our trip was a free group tour to BMW Classic, in its then-new and current location, several months before it was open to the public, including a tour of their "secret' warehouse. They provided our group with a private tour of BMW Welt, including a behind-the-scenes look at how the cars to be delivered are stored and transported mechanically from their storage location to the delivery floor. And there was the above-mentioned tour of BMW M HQ. Also, since M2s had just been released and were in short supply, with a very narrow time frame between its release and our delivery (of 10 M2s!), the then President of BMW NA, Ludwig Willisch, stepped in and made sure that there would be enough M2s for anyone in the group that wanted to order one for this delivery. (I was offered the opportunity but had my heart set on the M4.)

So R threw his long-time friends under the bus, made outrageous and inflated demands to BMW, which threatened the relationship between BMW CCA, BMW NA, and BMW GmbH, all because a small leak caused by a loose DCT fitting sprayed an ounce or two of DCT fluid on his exhaust. He got his new M2, complete with all of the M Performance parts that he demanded, although he lost the respect of every one of his BMW friends, the BMW CCA, and BMW. I was told that BMW has black-listed him and he'll never be able to buy a new BMW again.

Bottom line, BMW did not just offer him a free car with a bunch of M Performance parts as a gesture of goodwill, someone at BMW made a rash decision without running it up the ladder, and acquiesced to his outrageous and repeated demands.

Edited to add: There are numerous posts about this trip with plenty of pictures both then and subsequent shared memories on Facebook under the hash tag #CentennialMTour.

Here's a couple of photos of the group delivery:
Attached Images
  
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12


Last edited by SD ///M4; 02-18-2022 at 02:08 PM..
Appreciate 5
bigj505359.00
02M3ForMe4255.50
jmg18493.00
BigKutta3870.50
      02-17-2022, 09:26 PM   #126
bigj505
Captain
bigj505's Avatar
United_States
359
Rep
622
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW M4
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Baltimore,MD

iTrader: (3)

Wow…. That's all that I can say
Appreciate 1
SD ///M42992.00
      02-18-2022, 09:38 AM   #127
pikkagtr
Go Spurs Go
pikkagtr's Avatar
United_States
3847
Rep
2,867
Posts

Drives: 2022 GR Zupra
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (-1)

Wow that was a long read
I can y
Understand R's demands, however outrageous it was, he has a right to demand them
It was up to BMW to aquiesce or deny
But it doesn't look good on BMW's part to take back what was agreed upon, whether that was approved by higher ups or not

Since R had written confirmation and an agreement, bmw should have swallowed the lost and replace the car as promised
I work in an industry where your word is your bond, especially if you've agreed via corespondence
Appreciate 0
      02-18-2022, 02:05 PM   #128
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Wow that was a long read
I can y
Understand R's demands, however outrageous it was, he has a right to demand them
It was up to BMW to aquiesce or deny
But it doesn't look good on BMW's part to take back what was agreed upon, whether that was approved by higher ups or not

Since R had written confirmation and an agreement, bmw should have swallowed the lost and replace the car as promised
I work in an industry where your word is your bond, especially if you've agreed via corespondence
Apparently, this was not clear in my previous account, so I've gone back and edited my post to clarify this.

They did replace his M2, complete with all of the M Performance parts that he demanded, after they fixed his car to his apparent initial satisfaction. So they did honor the outrageous demands and the decision made by some BMW flunky who should never have made that rash decision without knowing all of the facts and running it up the ladder. R basically lied, blackmailed BMW, and won through intimidation. R made a selfish decision and only cared about himself. He lost the friendship and respect of formerly close friends whom he had known for many years and was expelled from a club that he had belonged to for years. There is not one person that was involved, at any level, that believes that R did the right thing.
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      02-20-2022, 08:12 AM   #129
amancuso
Lieutenant Colonel
amancuso's Avatar
723
Rep
1,752
Posts

Drives: 330it, 428ix, 430i
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lawrenceville, GA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
The telltale sign of an M Driving School car is that they are first registered in Woodlake, NJ.

It's not at all uncommon for dealerships to not certify M cars for the CPO program. My local dealer in Durham NC does not, and neither did Fields BMW in Chicago where I bought my low mileage 2016. Both dealerships implied that it's BMW NA policy. That said, they were more than happy to sell me very expensive BMW extended warranties lol. (I opted out btw, very comfortable maintaining/fixing BMWs on my own.)

You didn't by chance buy it from BMW of San Luis Obispo did you? If so, I'm very sorry for you. Those guys are bonafide "crooks", they are the poster child of why dealerships get such a bad wrap. I would not put it past them at all to whitewash a car with a shady history and misrepresent it to some poor unsuspecting buyer as "mint, driven by grandpa only on sunny Sundays".
I know this is a really old thread, but I want to give my $0.02. My 2003 M5 was a performance center car when it was new, and I am the 3rd owner. It currently has 165,000 miles on it and has been the most reliable e39 I've owned. (Previously owned a 528i and a 540i). From my understanding, practically everything in the car is replaced before it is offered for sale by BMW. I wouldn't be concerned with that, I'm sure the issues you are having have nothing to do with it's pedigree. Finding the pen is not a "smoking gun" because BMW often gifts a performance center course at Thermal or Greer to the new (1st) owner. Finally, my M4 which I bought at a BMW dealer was also not CPO'd It had the balance of factory warranty and that was it. As said above it's not uncommon for them to not CPO an M car.
__________________
2016 428ix, r, 2018 430iC, 2018 330it
Appreciate 1
SD ///M42992.00
      02-20-2022, 06:19 PM   #130
dezzracer
Major
United_States
1174
Rep
1,207
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3 CS
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: The Great Mojave Desert

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaaaaaaaa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0nrad View Post
you guys really think that performance center cars take a serious beating?

a press car would probably sketch me out, but it's naive to think most people are taking better care of these cars during a lease or normal ownership

modding the car with bolt ons, tunes, running higher boost, etc probably puts way more wear on the car then a person using it in a semi controlled track environment with instructors
Have you been to Performance Center event? We thrashed the cars in 110 degree Palm Springs heat. Think everyone knows how to use DCT properly or listen to the instructor instructions to keep DSC on? Yea right. Then at the end the instructors pretty much just drifted all the cars around the track for show. Repeat for several weekends in a row. Some guy even broke a M6's driveshaft during the drag races.
Yea at the end of my PDC class instructor drifted half the track with 3 big dudes in it. Including myself. It was 105 that day. I remember thinking at the time how hard that has to be it on the car.
Appreciate 0
      02-21-2022, 05:00 PM   #131
Fat Goose
Lieutenant
Fat Goose's Avatar
United_States
246
Rep
513
Posts

Drives: '18 F83 ZCP 6MT | F/A-18E
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

iTrader: (1)

This is why we don't have the BMW Euro delivery any more....
Appreciate 0
      02-22-2022, 03:33 PM   #132
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Goose View Post
This is why we don't have the BMW Euro delivery any more....
Maybe this incident could have been a very small contributing factor, but Euro Delivery was canceled in April 2020, four years after, but more significantly, shortly after worldwide COVID lockdowns. BMW blamed the ever-decreasing "take rate" for Euro Delivery. Dealers didn't want it because it was a pain to deal with and less profit. It also made it harder for them to push the already-ordered cars on their lots. The dealers were the only ones who won with that decision. BMWs current business model is: go to a dealer, pick a car from their lot, lease it for 3 years, rinse and repeat.

There is currently a letter-writing campaign prompted by a recent article in the BMW CCA Roundel to urge BMW to reconsider and reinstate Euro Delivery in the future. A letter-writing campaign by 30,000 BMW CCA members is credited with successfully urging BMW to bring the E36 M3 to the U.S.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ca-the-e36-m3/
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:35 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST