Buying "demo" cars? Mine turned out to be an M driving school car and keeps breaking

[CT_M3]

Folks, I empathize with the OP. Car buying can be an emotional experience for some; the more one desires a car, the more the emotion when buying. I'm sure some here will remember the joy of getting the car you want.

I do think that yes, while the dealer did denote that the car was in a "driving program", they did not fully disclose what that entailed and left that to interpretation. It was disingenuous of them to do that. In the light of full disclosure, they should have stated that a "driving program" includes the following possible uses of car e.g. track events, etc.

In essence, they preyed on the people who are eager to get into a M car and might give the language a pass.

Yes, caveat emptor to all looking to get a car, but it still doesn't absolve the dealership of its lack of transparency and deception.

[Nativetexan]

I really feel for you and am so sorry this happened.

I inquired on a YMB in SoCal a few months ago. After asking some questions they disclosed it was a driving school vehicle. Hence the CCBs and slightly lower discounted price.

I hope you can get it resolved and figured out.

[jpy1980]

Man all I know is that when I did the 2 day M school at Thermal, I drove those cars like I STOLE IT. Like no mechanical sympathy. I usually am very careful, but those instructors told me to drive it hard as they can take it and were well maintained. Obviously everything was neutered and not really a FULL TRACK day, like lead follows, but they were romped on and performed well. Bummer that you are having issues, but it may be a one off experience as I'm sure other people who bought these types of cars would have also Brought it up?

Anyways, good luck and let me know if you need a lemon law atty to speak to. My buddy, who is actually a member on BP and has an E90 M3, is a lemon law atty.

[jpy1980]

XKxRome0ox

[doug_999]

Let's remember a couple of things.
1 there are three sides to every story. We have heard one
2 the OP signed something saying "drivimg program". We say "they should have disclosed what that meant" - but seriously, "driving program" does sound self-explanatory. Worst case someone should have asked what it meant.
3 we don't know what the OP paid. The CB are like $8k? So how much was the car?

OP, I'm sorry you are going thought this. And the car is under warranty. Have them fix this. But/and, some good lessons in all of this. And yes, even old guys like myself are still learning.

[oduli81]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

Extremely frustrated here and wanted to share my story to bring awareness to the issue as well as get some advice. Especially since there's at least a few others of these demo cars on dealer lots in SoCal right now.

I bought a sweet Yas Marina Blue 2018 ZCP DCT M3 from a BMW dealer in SoCal last week. It had 11k miles, looked to be in decent shape, still under factory warranty (but strangely not CPO). I was told it was an "exec demo" and was leased to a BMW exec but also "sometimes tracked for demo purposes", vague statements that I didn't really think much of at the time.

Until it broke down with limp mode THREE times in the 7 days I've owned it.

I started researching this "demo" thing yesterday and found this thread and it turns out that oftentimes these demo cars end up being former M driving school cars, i.e. they get ridiculously abused at the track all day by random newbie track drivers throughout their lifetime there. The latter half of that thread is full of people saying it's a bad idea to buy one of these and some unfortunate anecdotes.

Coincidentally yesterday I also folded down the rear seats for the first time and out fell a vital clue....



Can't make this shit up.

Is there an updated consensus on these M school cars? That thread above is 2yrs old, I'm curious to know how these cars have held up for the people that bought them to see if mine is worth keeping.

On to my break downs. First one happened on the drive home from the dealer in LA (I live 2hrs away from LA), felt a misfire during a hard 2nd gear pull, restarted the car and it went away but eventually reoccured and got limp mode the whole way home (dealer was closed at this point). Took it to my local BMW dealer for service the next day where they replaced coil #1 and said it was fine. Later that very same day I get a 2nd misfire, and another limp mode. Back to the dealer the next day where they replace spark plug #6 saying that the porcelain had cracked in the plug and was rattling around.

Had a whole couple days of no misfires but could still feel some weird vibrations/shuddering going up to redline especially in 3rd gear, almost like the car was struggling a bit and running rough (still pulled well though). Can even feel these vibrations through the steering wheel going up to redline (RPM-dependent, not speed dependent), this symptom was present from day 1 and the service rep said it was normal behavior after both visits there for the other misfires. Tonight I got the 3rd misfire, and another limp mode so I'm now without a car for this 3 day Labor Day weekend. In addition I now notice a bunch of rattles in the cabin, various trim pieces being loose/undone, and highway wind noise coming from the border of the windshield-roof as if a sunroof was tipped open (but it's a CF roof).

At this point I'm wondering what to do? The thread I mentioned is 2yrs old, I'm curious to hear how the M school cars have been doing now that there's some more time passed. If you have one let me know if it's been solid or if you've had issues. Is my car worth keeping or should I try to sell it or what? I'd lose like $5k in taxes

Also if anyone is familiar with California law, do I have any kind of option to return the car to the dealer? It's only been 7 days. Could I just stop making payments on it and take this up with BMW NA? I feel I was misled when buying the car. If I knew it was an M school car I would not have bought it. It was priced at the average market price too, you'd think these M school cars would at least be sold at a serious discount. Dealer wouldn't budge on price though, apparently demand is high.

first thing is get better business involved. second thing is get the lemon law going, three misfires. third drive it like you stole it and let things keep breaking down.

if you stop making payments, your car will get repossessed and your credit score will suffer...

[XKxRome0ox]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

Extremely frustrated here and wanted to share my story to bring awareness to the issue as well as get some advice. Especially since there's at least a few others of these demo cars on dealer lots in SoCal right now.

I bought a sweet Yas Marina Blue 2018 ZCP DCT M3 from a BMW dealer in SoCal last week. It had 11k miles, looked to be in decent shape, still under factory warranty (but strangely not CPO). I was told it was an "exec demo" and was leased to a BMW exec but also "sometimes tracked for demo purposes", vague statements that I didn't really think much of at the time.

Until it broke down with limp mode THREE times in the 7 days I've owned it.

I started researching this "demo" thing yesterday and found this thread and it turns out that oftentimes these demo cars end up being former M driving school cars, i.e. they get ridiculously abused at the track all day by random newbie track drivers throughout their lifetime there. The latter half of that thread is full of people saying it's a bad idea to buy one of these and some unfortunate anecdotes.

Coincidentally yesterday I also folded down the rear seats for the first time and out fell a vital clue....



Can't make this shit up.

Is there an updated consensus on these M school cars? That thread above is 2yrs old, I'm curious to know how these cars have held up for the people that bought them to see if mine is worth keeping.

On to my break downs. First one happened on the drive home from the dealer in LA (I live 2hrs away from LA), felt a misfire during a hard 2nd gear pull, restarted the car and it went away but eventually reoccured and got limp mode the whole way home (dealer was closed at this point). Took it to my local BMW dealer for service the next day where they replaced coil #1 and said it was fine. Later that very same day I get a 2nd misfire, and another limp mode. Back to the dealer the next day where they replace spark plug #6 saying that the porcelain had cracked in the plug and was rattling around.

Had a whole couple days of no misfires but could still feel some weird vibrations/shuddering going up to redline especially in 3rd gear, almost like the car was struggling a bit and running rough (still pulled well though). Can even feel these vibrations through the steering wheel going up to redline (RPM-dependent, not speed dependent), this symptom was present from day 1 and the service rep said it was normal behavior after both visits there for the other misfires. Tonight I got the 3rd misfire, and another limp mode so I'm now without a car for this 3 day Labor Day weekend. In addition I now notice a bunch of rattles in the cabin, various trim pieces being loose/undone, and highway wind noise coming from the border of the windshield-roof as if a sunroof was tipped open (but it's a CF roof).

At this point I'm wondering what to do? The thread I mentioned is 2yrs old, I'm curious to hear how the M school cars have been doing now that there's some more time passed. If you have one let me know if it's been solid or if you've had issues. Is my car worth keeping or should I try to sell it or what? I'd lose like $5k in taxes

Also if anyone is familiar with California law, do I have any kind of option to return the car to the dealer? It's only been 7 days. Could I just stop making payments on it and take this up with BMW NA? I feel I was misled when buying the car. If I knew it was an M school car I would not have bought it. It was priced at the average market price too, you'd think these M school cars would at least be sold at a serious discount. Dealer wouldn't budge on price though, apparently demand is high.

Hey, I handle lemon law cases in California
based on what you've posted, you may have a valid claim against BMW
I will send you a message to follow up

[XKxRome0ox]

Originally Posted by nickl630

You're SOL then. If you signed a prior use that said it was a loaner/demo then they are under no obligation to take the car back... if the GM/UCM agrees to take the car back it would be a one-off decision to make you happy... but they are under no obligation to.

Lemon law also only applies to new vehicles so this wouldn't apply to you. (unless there's a CA specific law im unaware of)

Lemon law DOES apply to used cars
in California for sure
as well as other jurisdictions

Song Beverly Consumer Warranty Act, California's "lemon law" is very consumer friendly and powerful

[XKxRome0ox]

Originally Posted by jeepin29

California's Lemon laws apply to used cars that are sold with factory warranty if they're under 3 years old/ 36k miles.

there is no arbitrary limit on used car lemon law in California
lemon law applies as long as there is valid manufacturer's warranty, both original and CPO warranty

whether that is 3yr/36k or 10yr/100k miles

(interesting tidbit - Kia's 10yr/100k powertrain warranty downgrades to 5yr/60k miles for used vehicles)

[FrenchiedadSF]

so to all of you that said "too bad, you signed something" this is how you would react if you were in this situation? very interesting...

taking op at his word - this is really a simple solution and quite honestly, you are taking the hard route by posting this stuff online. op, your time is valuable. spend a couple thousand if you have to with a reputable lawyer and you will be surprised how quickly this process moves...

leaving all of your emotions aside, this is a business transaction and this dealership has an unhappy customer. saying op is SOL is inexperience

[MyNameIsNotSure]

To those saying that "driving program" is obviously the driving school, well it wasn't that obvious to me. I will admit I should have looked into it further, I've bought a few cars before and I'm normally very diligent. I guess I simply was not enough in the "know" of the whole performance driving school concept to be honest. I've heard it mentioned on commercials before and maybe saw a brochure once at a dealer a few years ago but that's about as much as I knew about it. Definitely wouldn't have guessed they sell those cars.. I would think they'd at least label them a salvage title (like the GM driving school apparently does) or that it'd be reflected somehow in the carfax like a rental car.

Even if I knew about it and asked, I'm not sure if they would have told me given the dealership director's stance of saying they have no way of knowing whether or not the demo cars come from the driving school.

To those asking what I thought driving program meant, I've said it before: I thought it meant the exec lease program. And when I was told that they are used on track for demo purposes sometimes, I thought maybe they use them for press events/launches, or maybe let journalists have a go sometimes. My mind never made the connection to daily track use at a school.

Lesson definitely learned, it was a minor thing to me but should have set off more of a red flag.

I will say that if the GM driving school sells their cars only after changing them to a salvage title, and if Porsche are so transparent about their driving school cars and sell them at a discount (given what a poster said earlier in the thread), I feel BMW should follow suit at least on the clear transparency part.

I bought the car for $61.5k after some fairly thorough negotiations, even walked away at first and came back to it at a later day (asking price was $62.3k). Is that a steep discount? It's a 2018, DCT, ZCP, CCBs, full black leather car, 11k miles, MSRP was $90k. I'll let you be the judges, I think it's fairly in line with market value.

[MyNameIsNotSure]

UPDATE: got the escalated call back from BMW NA yesterday and told them I either want to return the car, or give it one more shot but only if:

-they replace ALL coils and ALL plugs this time (since they're failing one by one)
-they let Santa Barbara replace the crooked windshield (which Pacific already agreed to but I don't want to drive back there)
-they pay for the extended warranty I bought (Safeguard 4yrs/50k miles, ~$1800)

I was told I would be getting escalated even further and am waiting for another call. In the meantime they told me to take it to my local Santa Barbara dealer and get it serviced. I did that and they did indeed swap all the plugs and coils this time and it seems to be running much smoother now. Still a weird rattle from the back going up to redline (maybe a piece of trim tho?) but the vibration is 99% gone in the day and a half of driving I've now done.

At this point I'd appreciate any advice/suggestions--should I keep it or return it?

The more I drive it the more I love the feel of the CCBs. And even if not for the CCBs there's no other non-demo YMB DCT full leather (this configuration is a must-have for me) M3's in the whole country right now that I can see. Who knows how long I'd have to wait til another pops up. I'm kind of leaning towards giving it another shot as long as something else doesn't break and if they pay for the warranty. Anyone else here owned a driving school car?

EDIT: Does anyone know if these driving school cars are actually maintained properly? According to the Santa Barbara dealer the car has no prior service history--no oil change, no break-in service. The service rep is guessing (hoping) that they do the maintenance on site at the school and it just doesn't get logged in the history, but has no way to confirm. I'd hope so too, if the car has 11k hard track miles without even an oil change or break-in service then I definitely wouldn't want to keep it..

[arashir]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

At this point I'd appreciate any advice/suggestions--should I keep it or return it?

I would wash your hands of it entirely if you can, you can always get another one but if you keep it there are all kinds of currently unknown risks inside that car, I don't think its possible to have enough information to be confident that some warranty repairs and a warranty period will be sufficient for the time you plan on keeping the car. It's the unknown risks that get you and for that reason I usually favor eliminating unknown risks

edit: even if this is the last car in the country available with the options you want, imagine a future where you have the car with your full leather and CCB etc. but then parts that were previously fixed continue to fail repeatedly because there were deeper mechanical problems than you thought. What's more important, a reliable M4 or the options you want? One fact that you can rely on is that the driving school cars have been subjected to more extreme use than any other car you could buy, and everything in a car will eventually fail given enough time. extreme usage just accelerates all that

[9M71]

What's the longest extended warranty offered by BMW themselves? Can you negotiate that if you want to keep it?

[brocurls]

Glad that things are turning your way OP. But if I were in your shoes, after everything that's happen and I've read till now, if you can get out of this...I'd run fast to return it.

The price you paid, though you may be OK with, is not what I'd want to pay for an abused car.

Secondly, I wouldn't feel 100% confident driving this car for however long I'd keep it, knowing something could happen (even if you have a stud of a covered warranty).

Best of luck OP, I hope BMWNA gives you the option to return it so you have choices.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

UPDATE: got the escalated call back from BMW NA yesterday and told them I either want to return the car, or give it one more shot but only if:

-they replace ALL coils and ALL plugs this time (since they're failing one by one)
-they let Santa Barbara replace the crooked windshield (which Pacific already agreed to but I don't want to drive back there)
-they pay for the extended warranty I bought (Safeguard 4yrs/50k miles, ~$1800)

I was told I would be getting escalated even further and am waiting for another call. In the meantime they told me to take it to my local Santa Barbara dealer and get it serviced. I did that and they did indeed swap all the plugs and coils this time and it seems to be running much smoother now. Still a weird rattle from the back going up to redline (maybe a piece of trim tho?) but the vibration is 99% gone in the day and a half of driving I've now done.

At this point I'd appreciate any advice/suggestions--should I keep it or return it?

The more I drive it the more I love the feel of the CCBs. And even if not for the CCBs there's no other non-demo YMB DCT full leather (this configuration is a must-have for me) M3's in the whole country right now that I can see. Who knows how long I'd have to wait til another pops up. I'm kind of leaning towards giving it another shot as long as something else doesn't break and if they pay for the warranty. Anyone else here owned a driving school car?

EDIT: Does anyone know if these driving school cars are actually maintained properly? According to the Santa Barbara dealer the car has no prior service history--no oil change, no break-in service. The service rep is guessing (hoping) that they do the maintenance on site at the school and it just doesn't get logged in the history, but has no way to confirm. I'd hope so too, if the car has 11k hard track miles without even an oil change or break-in service then I definitely wouldn't want to keep it..

They are maintained but the cars are beaten up extremely hard. More so than most other used cars because most drivers who drive these cars are, owners of the same car and they would prefer beating up a car that is similar to theirs so they know what the car can do. Other reason of course is, they don't own it so want to push the car as hard as they could to see what they can do, usually do a poor job at driving them too. The other reason is, most of these cars are used for everything for a year. If you ever been to a BMW Driving event, either Cross or M School (or both), you will quickly understand why these cars tend to give you problems if you buy them used.

Obviously not all of them are badly maintained but sadly all of the stories you hear are from owners with these cars failing them. You won't hear owners who have no problems post they have no problems. Since they have no real reason to. There is even a thread here on the forums telling you how to tell if these cars are from the driving event or M school. Most of them are built a certain way, especially with CCBs, 5k miles and originally registered from New Jersey.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

why do you still have this car. they are just buttering you up to keep it. can you afford the a ceramic brake service? I doubt they are going to pay for the warranty.

IMO give the car back, but idk if they are giving you essentially a free drive period right now?

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

EDIT: Does anyone know if these driving school cars are actually maintained properly? According to the Santa Barbara dealer the car has no prior service history--no oil change, no break-in service. The service rep is guessing (hoping) that they do the maintenance on site at the school and it just doesn't get logged in the history, but has no way to confirm. I'd hope so too, if the car has 11k hard track miles without even an oil change or break-in service then I definitely wouldn't want to keep it..

They are well maintained and overhauled before auction by BMW. In fact, I bet your brakes are new and will last the life of the car.

And
While I've been to the BMW driving school, and thrashed the cars, I'm pretty sure you will be fine with this car. They are amazing machines and the F8x is really well built. My vote is to keep it.

[AD18]

Really terrible that you've had to go through that but also that BMW sell them on like they do. They seem to do this all over the world though, here in the UK i did a track experience day in an M4. A few months later I looked at approved used bmw cars at my local dealer...7 plain white M4's, black standard interior, no options, near enough identical miles. I knew what their history was just from the listings and having done the trackday but I'm sure sales didn't tell the buyers. All were sold after a month or two to unknowing customers I'm sure. It's honestly disgusting, those cars are thrashed beyond belief, get rid if I was you.

Here was my thread:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1509579

[Keca10]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

UPDATE: got the escalated call back from BMW NA yesterday and told them I either want to return the car, or give it one more shot but only if:

-they replace ALL coils and ALL plugs this time (since they're failing one by one)
-they let Santa Barbara replace the crooked windshield (which Pacific already agreed to but I don't want to drive back there)
-they pay for the extended warranty I bought (Safeguard 4yrs/50k miles, ~$1800)

I was told I would be getting escalated even further and am waiting for another call. In the meantime they told me to take it to my local Santa Barbara dealer and get it serviced. I did that and they did indeed swap all the plugs and coils this time and it seems to be running much smoother now. Still a weird rattle from the back going up to redline (maybe a piece of trim tho?) but the vibration is 99% gone in the day and a half of driving I've now done.

At this point I'd appreciate any advice/suggestions--should I keep it or return it?

The more I drive it the more I love the feel of the CCBs. And even if not for the CCBs there's no other non-demo YMB DCT full leather (this configuration is a must-have for me) M3's in the whole country right now that I can see. Who knows how long I'd have to wait til another pops up. I'm kind of leaning towards giving it another shot as long as something else doesn't break and if they pay for the warranty. Anyone else here owned a driving school car?

EDIT: Does anyone know if these driving school cars are actually maintained properly? According to the Santa Barbara dealer the car has no prior service history--no oil change, no break-in service. The service rep is guessing (hoping) that they do the maintenance on site at the school and it just doesn't get logged in the history, but has no way to confirm. I'd hope so too, if the car has 11k hard track miles without even an oil change or break-in service then I definitely wouldn't want to keep it..

I feel like you missed my earlier post. I had your experience 10 years ago with an E46.
Cars are very well maintained. It’s a definite positive.
Check the paint especially close to the bottom of the car. They get sandblasted from rough driving. I had rust bubbles staring to form in under 5 years.

[jdgamble]

Here’s how I would do it, if you want to keep the car:

- have them fix the windshield for sure.
- get a refund on the aftermarket warranty and ask for a 7/100 (from in service date) warranty from BMW. Then they will cover you for another 5 yrs or so.

I had a lemon M3 in 2011 with bearing noise, and they would have done anything I asked to keep it.

All that being said, I would probably ask for them to take it back.

[bmwmdistrict]

All of this sounds great that BMW is apparently trying to salvage the sale. But in my opinion, I would still turn it in. If you can completely walk away, without having to buy another BMW on the spot, do it. If you're forced to buy another BMW then that's going to be difficult given your shortlist of requirements.

There's a lot that may never happen to the car but there's way too many unknowns here. The fact that there's zero documentation of this car while it was under BMW ownership is basically a black hole. This car is a wild card and you don't know what you're in for in another 20, 30, 40K miles. Yes - same can be said for any car. But this is different - it's been driven very aggressively and has 0 documentation. No break-in. Just beat on for 10K miles.

I see you're also stuck with a third party warranty. Those are basically worthless. Unless BMW is willing to provide a warranty (doesn't have to be CPO) I wouldn't touch this car.

I would park this car and don't agree to anymore repairs, concessions, etc. as the more you do, the more they'll likely say you're stuck with it.