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      09-22-2014, 12:49 PM   #1
ss134
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F80 M3 Brake Judder

Hello all,

My car has developed a pronounced brake judder when decelerating hard from any speed above 70 mph. You can feel it through the steering wheel and brake pedal- it's very noticeable . If I apply the brakes gently there is no judder.

I have felt a slight judder before but the problem seems to be getting worse and more noticeable.


The car has 3000 miles on the clock and has the standard steel brakes.

Any advice or probable causes would be appreciated......
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      09-22-2014, 12:56 PM   #2
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Sounds like you might potentially have a warped rotor. This can occur when the rotor cools down unevenly like driving through water when they are hot or leaving the parking brake on after a hot lap on the track. But this is not very common, and certainly not normal. Your dealer will be able to put a run out gauge on the rotors and determine if this is the issue very quickly.
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      09-22-2014, 01:05 PM   #3
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its not a warped rotor. most likely you got some pad desposit on your rotor and it chatters every time it goes over it. is there any dark spots on your front rotors. did you do any aggressive braking recently or had the car on the track without cooling down?
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      09-22-2014, 01:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
its not a warped rotor. most likely you got some pad desposit on your rotor and it chatters every time it goes over it. is there any dark spots on your front rotors. did you do any aggressive braking recently or had the car on the track without cooling down?
I will check for dark spots. As for aggressive braking , not really although I have decelerated moderately from 150 mph on the autobahn a few times but not full hard braking . Never tracked the car.
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      09-22-2014, 01:19 PM   #5
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I've developed the same thing at 1600 miles but...

I'm pretty sure it's pad deposits. It develops with heat build-up in the rotors, then goes away when cooling down or modest brake usage.

It's presented itself about 3-4 times and, when braking hard, almost feels like i'm braking on a very broken surface, in that the whole car and steering wheel suddenly feels like it's been pulled right and left simultaneously. Then it goes away quickly.

I admit this is different than other pad deposits I've felt. The first time I felt it, I did think something was wrong with the brakes or tires - it came on very suddenly during a hard braking.
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      09-22-2014, 01:34 PM   #6
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Sounds like ABS kicking in to me...
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      09-22-2014, 01:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I've developed the same thing at 1600 miles but...

I'm pretty sure it's pad deposits. It develops with heat build-up in the rotors, then goes away when cooling down or modest brake usage.

It's presented itself about 3-4 times and, when braking hard, almost feels like i'm braking on a very broken surface, in that the whole car and steering wheel suddenly feels like it's been pulled right and left simultaneously. Then it goes away quickly.

I admit this is different than other pad deposits I've felt. The first time I felt it, I did think something was wrong with the brakes or tires - it came on very suddenly during a hard braking.
This is exactly how my car felt
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      09-22-2014, 01:57 PM   #8
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So what is the solution? Turning the rotors? Long term? Different pads? I have actually been thinking about changing the brake pads to something that dusts much less. Getting tired of the wheels being filthy a day after washing.
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      09-22-2014, 02:11 PM   #9
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its not abs. you will feel the pedal vibrate when abs kicks. autobahn speeds make them heat up quick and they will fleck away some pad material. i did it to mine over there easily. you should see light grey smears on front and back sides of rotors. i'm fixing to put track pads, spacers, and stud conversion. i'm going to remove the rotors and have a good check over them along with the pads. pretty sure the compound is very low temp. not sure why yet.
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      09-22-2014, 02:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celler View Post
So what is the solution? Turning the rotors? Long term? Different pads? I have actually been thinking about changing the brake pads to something that dusts much less. Getting tired of the wheels being filthy a day after washing.
ceramic pads will probably do you fine. if there is pad material and you don't have the patience to scrub them the old fashioned way you can remove them and sand down the material. DO NOT HAVE THEM TURNED with a brake lathe. it compromises the rotors ability to manage heat and you can have cracks form prematurely.
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      09-22-2014, 02:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celler View Post
So what is the solution? Turning the rotors? Long term? Different pads? I have actually been thinking about changing the brake pads to something that dusts much less. Getting tired of the wheels being filthy a day after washing.
The compromise with switching to low-dust pads is that oftentimes, they don't have nearly as much bite.

I would suggest you look into obtaining some Porterfield R4-S brake pads. They are track-worthy pads that have great bite and low dust (they are quiet, too).

http://porterfield-brakes.com/manufa...akes/R4-S.html

If you conduct some research, you'll see that these pads are used quite extensively throughout the enthusiast community.

I have a set that I use for my HPDE days.

Hope the info helps!
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      09-22-2014, 02:56 PM   #12
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Turning the rotors will not do anything good unless the rotors are warped, which would almost certainly create an issue all the time.

This is most likely an issue with pad deposits, which is almost certainly a pad issue. Unless it becomes alot more frequent, I'm going to live with it. Here's a more detailed description of what happens:

1. You drive around aggressively (on the street/back roads for me) and work the brakes a bit. By no means to track levels, but enough to put some heat into them.

2. Braking is fine.

3. At some point, you initiate a higher speed braking event. Perhaps 70mph-30mph. As you begin braking at 70mph, braking feels fine. However, this is putting alot of heat into the brakes and maybe around 55mph a sudden and strong emergence of vehicle shudder comes on.

4. It is not ABS, which would be pedal shudder, but instead a shudder that is a result of you braking but feels like the tires themselves are squirming. It is constant while you continue braking and you feel it strongly in the pedal and steering wheel.

5. You let up braking and maybe it happens a bit next time you brake, or maybe it's gone altogether. Within a short period of brake cooling, it's gone altogether.

...

When it occurs, it feels like very even brake deposits. Again, I'm basing this off it happening very distinctly maybe 4x total. It's not a warbling or on-off-on shuddering, it's just a sudden-onset constant wobble. First time it happened, I thought I had a flat or something....
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      09-23-2014, 11:00 AM   #13
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You, and all of us, need to bed the brakes in properly to ensure that a good layer of pad material is EVENLY transferred to the rotor. Check out the following:

http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c...rs/post/Bed-in
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      09-23-2014, 11:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
its not a warped rotor. most likely you got some pad desposit on your rotor and it chatters every time it goes over it. is there any dark spots on your front rotors. did you do any aggressive braking recently or had the car on the track without cooling down?
Here is a pic of my FR brake disc, not sure if this is normal or not?
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      09-23-2014, 12:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
Here is a pic of my FR brake disc, not sure if this is normal or not?
the dark patches is the pad material stuck on the rotor surface. need to either scrub them with light pedal pressure for a long time or take them off and sand off the deposits with some sandpaper. while at it take a thin screwdriver and poke out all the caked in dust in all the holes.
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      09-24-2014, 09:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
Here is a pic of my FR brake disc, not sure if this is normal or not?
Before you do anything too drastic please re-bed the brakes; assuming you did it the first time. Since you live in Germany and the UK you should easily be able to find some roads that will allow you to safely do this: Get the car warm and get up to about 50 mph. Then hit the brakes hard to stop as rapidly as possible whilst trying to avoid having the ABS kick in. Do NOT allow the car to stop but to slow down to about 5-10 mph. Get back up to speed and about 2/3 minutes later go to 60 mph and repeat the above. Again let the brakes cool slightly for 2/3 minutes and get up to 70 mph. Repeat the above, and again from 80 mph down to 5-10 mph and lastly if you can get to 90 mph and do the above. When you've finished with the above, drive for quite a few miles to allow the rotors and pads to cool. Do not come to a full stop if at all possible whilst doing the above procedure. If you are forced to, keep your foot off the brake pedal when stopped.

The above should remove any irregular deposits on the rotors and place a uniform layer of pad material on the rotors. If it doesn't work, then you can try the above with a more aggressive 'track' oriented pad which should nearly always do the trick. Having to scrub the rotors would be the last thing to try and don't let anyone 'turn' the rotors for you; the rotors aren't warped, (or at least the odds of that being true is very low).
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      09-24-2014, 12:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
Before you do anything too drastic please re-bed the brakes; assuming you did it the first time. Since you live in Germany and the UK you should easily be able to find some roads that will allow you to safely do this: Get the car warm and get up to about 50 mph. Then hit the brakes hard to stop as rapidly as possible whilst trying to avoid having the ABS kick in. Do NOT allow the car to stop but to slow down to about 5-10 mph. Get back up to speed and about 2/3 minutes later go to 60 mph and repeat the above. Again let the brakes cool slightly for 2/3 minutes and get up to 70 mph. Repeat the above, and again from 80 mph down to 5-10 mph and lastly if you can get to 90 mph and do the above. When you've finished with the above, drive for quite a few miles to allow the rotors and pads to cool. Do not come to a full stop if at all possible whilst doing the above procedure. If you are forced to, keep your foot off the brake pedal when stopped.

The above should remove any irregular deposits on the rotors and place a uniform layer of pad material on the rotors. If it doesn't work, then you can try the above with a more aggressive 'track' oriented pad which should nearly always do the trick. Having to scrub the rotors would be the last thing to try and don't let anyone 'turn' the rotors for you; the rotors aren't warped, (or at least the odds of that being true is very low).
Bish
excellent advice.
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      09-26-2014, 02:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
Before you do anything too drastic please re-bed the brakes; assuming you did it the first time. Since you live in Germany and the UK you should easily be able to find some roads that will allow you to safely do this: Get the car warm and get up to about 50 mph. Then hit the brakes hard to stop as rapidly as possible whilst trying to avoid having the ABS kick in. Do NOT allow the car to stop but to slow down to about 5-10 mph. Get back up to speed and about 2/3 minutes later go to 60 mph and repeat the above. Again let the brakes cool slightly for 2/3 minutes and get up to 70 mph. Repeat the above, and again from 80 mph down to 5-10 mph and lastly if you can get to 90 mph and do the above. When you've finished with the above, drive for quite a few miles to allow the rotors and pads to cool. Do not come to a full stop if at all possible whilst doing the above procedure. If you are forced to, keep your foot off the brake pedal when stopped.

The above should remove any irregular deposits on the rotors and place a uniform layer of pad material on the rotors. If it doesn't work, then you can try the above with a more aggressive 'track' oriented pad which should nearly always do the trick. Having to scrub the rotors would be the last thing to try and don't let anyone 'turn' the rotors for you; the rotors aren't warped, (or at least the odds of that being true is very low).
Bish
Much appreciated Bish, I followed BMWs bedding in process for the brakes when I took delivery which differs from this so I will give this a try and report back. Getting up to 90 and then back down to 10 in this car is not a problem here trust me!!
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