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      04-28-2016, 07:09 PM   #1
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Stock brakes OK for Nurburgring and 2 track days?

I'm doing Euro Delivery on an M4 in a couple of weeks with a large group of people who are all buying M cars. Our itinerary is timed so that we will have accumulated 1200 miles prior to arriving in Stuttgart a week later, where the BMW dealer will be doing the 1200 mile service for all 15 of our cars. From there we will be going to Nurburgring for Touristenfahrten on Sunday, after which we'll be meeting up with the RS Touring group for a one-day track session at Circuit Park Zandvoort and then a one-day track session at Spa-Francorchamps.

When we have the 1200 mile service performed, we have the opportunity to have BMW Sport pads installed during the service. These are the same pads that are used on the M2 at the Performance Center West. The part numbers are 3411 4805 259 and 3421 4805 259 (not sure which is front and which is rear). I don't yet know the cost of the pads or the installation cost. I don't really want to spend the money on these pads and installation, particularly when I could change the pads in about an hour myself, but I also don't want to run out of brakes at Spa.

My wife and I will be sharing my M4, doing 4-8 laps at Nurburgring, and sharing the car for the 2 track days. We are both "A" drivers at BMW CCA HPDEs. I'm not planning to push the car very hard at Nurburgring. I'll be more aggressive at Zandvoort and Spa, but not as aggressive as I would be at a local track that I'm more familiar with. After Spa, we're driving directly back to Munich to drop the cars off, about a 6.5 hr. drive.

So my question is, do you think that the stock pads will last for 4-8 laps at the Nurburgring Nordschleife, one track day at Zandvoort and one track day at Spa? Or should I have the Sport pads installed at the dealer in Stuttgart?

Logistical considerations are getting the stock pads back home. I really don't want the added weight in either our checked luggage or our carry-on luggage. I thought about just putting them in the compartment under the trunk floor but I have no idea whether they'd make it home or not. If not, I'd probably get another pair of the stock pads and save the Sport pads for the next track session. If I don't get the Sport pads installed in Germany, I'll probably get a set of Hawk or Pagid pads for a Laguna Seca track event in August, after my car gets back home.

So will the stock pads be OK or should I have the Sport pads installed?
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      04-28-2016, 07:57 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4
I'm doing Euro Delivery on an M4 in a couple of weeks with a large group of people who are all buying M cars. Our itinerary is timed so that we will have accumulated 1200 miles prior to arriving in Stuttgart a week later, where the BMW dealer will be doing the 1200 mile service for all 15 of our cars. From there we will be going to Nurburgring for Touristenfahrten on Sunday, after which we'll be meeting up with the RS Touring group for a one-day track session at Circuit Park Zandvoort and then a one-day track session at Spa-Francorchamps.

When we have the 1200 mile service performed, we have the opportunity to have BMW Sport pads installed during the service. These are the same pads that are used on the M2 at the Performance Center West. The part numbers are 3411 4805 259 and 3421 4805 259 (not sure which is front and which is rear). I don't yet know the cost of the pads or the installation cost. I don't really want to spend the money on these pads and installation, particularly when I could change the pads in about an hour myself, but I also don't want to run out of brakes at Spa.

My wife and I will be sharing my M4, doing 4-8 laps at Nurburgring, and sharing the car for the 2 track days. We are both "A" drivers at BMW CCA HPDEs. I'm not planning to push the car very hard at Nurburgring. I'll be more aggressive at Zandvoort and Spa, but not as aggressive as I would be at a local track that I'm more familiar with. After Spa, we're driving directly back to Munich to drop the cars off, about a 6.5 hr. drive.

So my question is, do you think that the stock pads will last for 4-8 laps at the Nurburgring Nordschleife, one track day at Zandvoort and 1 track day at Spa? Or should I have the Sport pads installed at the dealer in Stuttgart?

Logistical considerations are getting the stock pads back home. I really don't want the added weight in either our checked luggage or our carry-on luggage. I thought about just putting them in the compartment under the trunk floor but I have no idea whether they'd make it home or not. If not, I'd probably get another pair of the stock pads and save the Sport pads for the next track session. If I don't get the Sport pads installed in Germany, I'll probably get a set of Hawk or Pagid pads for a Laguna Seca track event in August, after my car gets back home.

So will the stock pads be OK or should I have the Sport pads installed?
Nordschleife is hard but not torture on the stock pads/rotors unless you're really attacking it hard. Most of the Tourist Speed Restrictions have been raised or eliminated, but some are still in place (and more heavily enforced).

Zandvoort and Spa are going to be quite a bit harsher. All 3 combined plus the driving distance to the circuits themselves is pushing it IMO. The M Performance Sport Pads are a good idea and easier to deal with since you're doing the 1200mi service anyway. They are a Pagid RS29 variant (typically branded Textar or ///M). The stock rotors are quite sturdy and should be able to cope well with the pads for that duration. Keep cool down in mind since the pads will bring everything up to a higher temp so the rotors need a bit of extra time and airflow to prevent major spot deposition.

If you want to keep the standard pads without the hassle, drop them off at a DHL office and shipped over near the end of the trip.
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      04-28-2016, 11:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Nordschleife is hard but not torture on the stock pads/rotors unless you're really attacking it hard. Most of the Tourist Speed Restrictions have been raised or eliminated, but some are still in place (and more heavily enforced).

Zandvoort and Spa are going to be quite a bit harsher. All 3 combined plus the driving distance to the circuits themselves is pushing it IMO. The M Performance Sport Pads are a good idea and easier to deal with since you're doing the 1200mi service anyway. They are a Pagid RS29 variant (typically branded Textar or ///M). The stock rotors are quite sturdy and should be able to cope well with the pads for that duration. Keep cool down in mind since the pads will bring everything up to a higher temp so the rotors need a bit of extra time and airflow to prevent major spot deposition.

If you want to keep the standard pads without the hassle, drop them off at a DHL office and shipped over near the end of the trip.
Are the M Performance sport pads specific for the F8X or are they also for the F3X? How do they compare with Pagid RS29s?

I ran stock pads at the track 3 days ago and could feel them going soft by the last session. I want to upgrade to more hardcore brake pads but I'm concerned with the noise and excessive wear on the rotors during daily driving (I don't plan to swap pads between track days).
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      04-28-2016, 11:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecf34 View Post
Are the M Performance sport pads specific for the F8X or are they also for the F3X? How do they compare with Pagid RS29s?

I ran stock pads at the track 3 days ago and could feel them going soft by the last session. I want to upgrade to more hardcore brake pads but I'm concerned with the noise and excessive wear on the rotors during daily driving (I don't plan to swap pads between track days).
Thanks for the feedback!

It appears to be extremely easy to swap brake pads on the M3/M4, at least according to this video (although I don't think I'd use the business end of a crescent wrench as a pry bar...):

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      04-28-2016, 11:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecf34
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Nordschleife is hard but not torture on the stock pads/rotors unless you're really attacking it hard. Most of the Tourist Speed Restrictions have been raised or eliminated, but some are still in place (and more heavily enforced).

Zandvoort and Spa are going to be quite a bit harsher. All 3 combined plus the driving distance to the circuits themselves is pushing it IMO. The M Performance Sport Pads are a good idea and easier to deal with since you're doing the 1200mi service anyway. They are a Pagid RS29 variant (typically branded Textar or ///M). The stock rotors are quite sturdy and should be able to cope well with the pads for that duration. Keep cool down in mind since the pads will bring everything up to a higher temp so the rotors need a bit of extra time and airflow to prevent major spot deposition.

If you want to keep the standard pads without the hassle, drop them off at a DHL office and shipped over near the end of the trip.
Are the M Performance sport pads specific for the F8X or are they also for the F3X? How do they compare with Pagid RS29s?

I ran stock pads at the track 3 days ago and could feel them going soft by the last session. I want to upgrade to more hardcore brake pads but I'm concerned with the noise and excessive wear on the rotors during daily driving (I don't plan to swap pads between track days).
I'll have to dig a little bit for Non-M. It will require M Performance Brake Kit to be installed however. Of discussing standard TRW Folating calipers and attempting to find a semi-balanced HPDE/Street combo, pads and rotors are what needs to be looked at IMO.

The M Performance Sport Pads are slightly adjusted in their composition compared to bog standard RS29 (there is an old RS19 version for Fxx M5/M6 - RSL1 Versions for all ///M and M Performance -excl Fxx M5/M6 are coming). These are the pads used by Ring-Taxi, Farher-Training, and Nordschleife laps during M Car development.

This is a temp/friction map for the Pagid RS line which shows the various characteristics.
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      04-29-2016, 05:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4
My wife and I will be sharing my M4, doing 4-8 laps at Nurburgring, and sharing the car for the 2 track days. We are both "A" drivers at BMW CCA HPDEs. I'm not planning to push the car very hard at Nurburgring. I'll be more aggressive at Zandvoort and Spa, but not as aggressive as I would be at a local track that I'm more familiar with. After Spa, we're driving directly back to Munich to drop the cars off, about a 6.5 hr. drive.
I've been thinking about this a little more especially with 2 drivers sharing the car...

At Nordschleife, are you estimating 4-8 laps total or 4-8 laps each? There is a big difference between the two.

At Zandvoort and Spa, will you and your wife be splitting the run allocations, or will you be in separate groups with the possibility of running back to back sessions (or open track with little to no run division)?

I'd at least have a backup plan in mind just in case.
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      04-29-2016, 05:24 PM   #7
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RS 29 all around and call it a day!
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      04-29-2016, 10:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
I've been thinking about this a little more especially with 2 drivers sharing the car...

At Nordschleife, are you estimating 4-8 laps total or 4-8 laps each? There is a big difference between the two.

At Zandvoort and Spa, will you and your wife be splitting the run allocations, or will you be in separate groups with the possibility of running back to back sessions (or open track with little to no run division)?

I'd at least have a backup plan in mind just in case.
For Nurburgring we're going to buy a 4-lap Ring card and split it. If that's not enough, we'll do it again. So 4-8 laps total.

The tracks sessions at Zandvoort and Spa are being run by RS Touring and they are using a BMW CCA HPDE format. Morning sessions with an instructor, afternoon sessions will be open. Probably split the entire group in half and run two sessions for each in the morning and two for each in the afternoon, or some kind of even split. I haven't looks at the plans for the track sessions in a while.

At Zandvoort and Spa she'll also be driving my M4 so we will be splitting the available sessions, I'll drive one, she'll the next one, etc. We've done this with her car for the last five years and track her car 1-3 times a year on Hawk race pads. I run in A and she runs in B only because we share her car. We've never had a problem with brakes, but tires have sometime become a problem (Hankook RS-1s on Apex wheels, 18" square setup). Of course on our ED we'll be using whatever tires the M4 is delivered with, hopefully Michelin PSS, or Continentals.

The group thinking currently is to look for Pagid RS29s in Europe and doing the pad swap ourselves. This means of course, that we'll have to borrow appropriate tools from someone at Nurburgring and change out all the brake pads prior to driving the 'Ring. No one wants to pay for the installation because we can all do that ourselves. Another concern is that if the dealer installs the Sport pads they're going to want to replace our rotors too.

BTW, thanks for all of your feedback and the thought that you're putting into this.
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      04-29-2016, 11:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
I've been thinking about this a little more especially with 2 drivers sharing the car...

At Nordschleife, are you estimating 4-8 laps total or 4-8 laps each? There is a big difference between the two.

At Zandvoort and Spa, will you and your wife be splitting the run allocations, or will you be in separate groups with the possibility of running back to back sessions (or open track with little to no run division)?

I'd at least have a backup plan in mind just in case.
For Nurburgring we're going to buy a 4-lap Ring card and split it. If that's not enough, we'll do it again. So 4-8 laps total.

The tracks sessions at Zandvoort and Spa are being run by RS Touring and they are using a BMW CCA HPDE format. Morning sessions with an instructor, afternoon sessions will be open. Probably split the entire group in half and run two sessions for each in the morning and two for each in the afternoon, or some kind of even split. I haven't looks at the plans for the track sessions in a while.

At Zandvoort and Spa she'll also be driving my M4 so we will be splitting the available sessions, I'll drive one, she'll the next one, etc. We've done this with her car for the last five years and track her car 1-3 times a year on Hawk race pads. I run in A and she runs in B only because we share her car. We've never had a problem with brakes, but tires have sometime become a problem (Hankook RS-1s on Apex wheels, 18" square setup). Of course on our ED we'll be using whatever tires the M4 is delivered with, hopefully Michelin PSS, or Continentals.

The group thinking currently is to look for Pagid RS29s in Europe and doing the pad swap ourselves. This means of course, that we'll have to borrow appropriate tools from someone at Nurburgring and change out all the brake pads prior to driving the 'Ring. No one wants to pay for the installation because we can all do that ourselves. Another concern is that if the dealer installs the Sport pads they're going to want to replace our rotors too.

BTW, thanks for all of your feedback and the thought that you're putting into this.
Very nice. Jim and Miguel are great guys (and yes I've been out of touch more than I wanted to incase one of them comes across this thread).

At 1200mi, the dealer in Stuttgart shouldn't have issue with installing M Sport Pads. It's far too early to be concerned with rotor wear and pad type.

On the opposite side, the only true face value benefit to the M Sport Pads are a dealer will install them. RS29's are far less expensive to obtain but of course require self or tuning shop installation. There are several shops on-site at Nurburgring and I would be surprised if an arrangement hasn't already been made for support for those wanting to switch before setting off.

You're in good hands with two very experienced and knowledgeable people on top.

With the tires, PSS are better in the dry (and will be the new gen if installed). Conti's are not quite as good at the high temp range but are better in the wet.
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      04-29-2016, 11:12 PM   #10
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I installed some RS29's on my M2 two days ago, so same brake set up as the M4, I've never done it before and it took my 15 minutes, super easy.
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      04-30-2016, 02:08 AM   #11
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OK, the current status is that the Stuttgart dealership says they need to replace the rotors too, the total cost is 3000 Euro, so that option is definitely out. One person has ordered the Pagid RS29s and is going to take them with him, although he said for only a little more than the cost of 2 day shipping he could have had them sent to Germany. I'll be looking into that option.
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      04-30-2016, 11:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGL View Post
I installed some RS29's on my M2 two days ago, so same brake set up as the M4, I've never done it before and it took my 15 minutes, super easy.
Where can we find the best deal on Pagid RS29s? The only place that I've seen them is on Turner Motorsports. They seem to make these pads for a variety of cars so I want to make sure the ones I get are compatible with my M3
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      05-01-2016, 01:48 AM   #13
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It looks like most of us that are doing the track days are going to try and do a group buy and have the Pagid RS29s shipped to Munich to arrive prior to our delivery. One possible source for the brakes is run by a guy who used to be a student of one of our group members, a BMW CCA instructor for over 15 years, so we're anticipating a good deal.

Now we just have to figure out the logistics of changing brake pads on 10-12 M2s, M3s, and M4s without any of our tools, hopefully in the week prior to arriving at Nurburgring to give the brakes time to get bedded in.

My wife and I are flying Lufthansa Premium Economy and we are allowed two checked bags each, even though we're only checking one each. We may check a box with a 17mm deep socket, breaker bar, torque wrench (gotta check that mine goes to 105 lb/ft), and a caliper pin knockout tool. Then all we'll need is a floor jack.
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      05-01-2016, 01:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecf34 View Post
Where can we find the best deal on Pagid RS29s? The only place that I've seen them is on Turner Motorsports. They seem to make these pads for a variety of cars so I want to make sure the ones I get are compatible with my M3
I have another source, but I'll let you know after we determine whether they can supply 10-12 sets for our group.
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      05-01-2016, 04:00 AM   #15
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Brake pads & tires @ Nordschleife

The following pics show the condition of brake pads and tires of F82 M4 after running 800km at Nordschleife in 2 days. The BtG time was 8:20 or so.The brake pads were squeaky sport pads which can be heard in the following vid. JFYI.

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      05-02-2016, 11:17 PM   #16
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Hey guys,

Recently I've been getting a 'groaning' sound as I brake approaching a stoplight. I also get a bit of squeaking braking at low speeds. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with tracking the car last week causing deposit buildup on the rotors.

Front:

Rear:


It looks like the front rotors have some deposit on them, can anyone confirm? If so, how can I resolve the problem? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've never experienced something like this before.
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      05-02-2016, 11:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecf34 View Post
Hey guys,

Recently I've been getting a 'groaning' sound as I brake approaching a stoplight. I also get a bit of squeaking braking at low speeds. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with tracking the car last week causing deposit buildup on the rotors.

Front:

Rear:


It looks like the front rotors have some deposit on them, can anyone confirm? If so, how can I resolve the problem? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've never experienced something like this before.
it will go away on its own after about 2 weeks of driving. Happened to me as well. Wish there was a better way.
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      05-03-2016, 12:02 AM   #18
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it will go away on its own after about 2 weeks of driving. Happened to me as well. Wish there was a better way.
Thanks for the tip! Do you know if changing to different pads will help?
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      05-03-2016, 12:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecf34 View Post
Hey guys,

Recently I've been getting a 'groaning' sound as I brake approaching a stoplight. I also get a bit of squeaking braking at low speeds. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with tracking the car last week causing deposit buildup on the rotors.

It looks like the front rotors have some deposit on them, can anyone confirm? If so, how can I resolve the problem? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've never experienced something like this before.
This was probably the wrong thread to post your question in. This thread is about whether the stock brake pads are enough for Nurburgring, Zandvoort, and Spa (no stop lights there!). I see that you got a reply, but you probably should have started your own thread in this forum, or posted in the General Forum, as you'll likely have more responses.
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      05-12-2016, 04:50 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
It looks like most of us that are doing the track days are going to try and do a group buy and have the Pagid RS29s shipped to Munich to arrive prior to our delivery. One possible source for the brakes is run by a guy who used to be a student of one of our group members, a BMW CCA instructor for over 15 years, so we're anticipating a good deal.

Now we just have to figure out the logistics of changing brake pads on 10-12 M2s, M3s, and M4s without any of our tools, hopefully in the week prior to arriving at Nurburgring to give the brakes time to get bedded in.

My wife and I are flying Lufthansa Premium Economy and we are allowed two checked bags each, even though we're only checking one each. We may check a box with a 17mm deep socket, breaker bar, torque wrench (gotta check that mine goes to 105 lb/ft), and a caliper pin knockout tool. Then all we'll need is a floor jack.
If it's 10 or more for certain and you guys haven't sourced a place, I can recommend a couple of options for getting the pads there and installation support.

One important note, if anyone in the Group spec'd MCCB's, pads are an absolute must and the BMW break-in procedure (not Porsche, Ferrari, etc) followed. The pad change is a bit longer as well for that system, but it will be far easier on the rotors at Zandvoort and Spa since the pads are softer and spread a nice thick deposit at 500c and help keep them out of the danger zone for a shorter period. Nurburgring isn't too hard on them.

If anyone in the group is flying American, I'll donate use of my freight account for free since one of the organizers helped me out at Roebling Road (just don't smuggle anything unsavory...that won't go over well...and pay it forward). The process is easy if the instructions are followed and is done at a specific passenger check-in desk. They'll transit on the same flight and be available to retrieve on the carousel or in a pickup office near baggage claim on arrival. PM me if interested.

Another option is to see if it can be arranged with BMW to have the Sport Pads installed before or after pickup at the welt. It's a long shot at the last minute, but far stranger requests have been accommodated.

I've had the impression that track-side tech support is included with RS Touring events but possibly this is just too large of a group to handle so many brake swaps. We (partners included) are running at least 6 cars at Nurburgring 24, but have 9 entered. The decision on whether one or more of the BMW's will actually compete is still undecided as I can't drive and we're two short already due to the earthquakes in Japan. There there is a slight chance we'll have 2 full crew there to pick up slack with the other two teams. The U.K. Team has some slack as well since we're not running any LMP cars this year. That probably doesn't fit the group schedule though since that's at the end of the trip. I could see if there is a way to send 2 techs and a chief over early, but I can't donate that for free and it won't be a bargain. Something the group and organizers should discuss.
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      05-12-2016, 05:11 AM   #21
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Hey guys,

Recently I've been getting a 'groaning' sound as I brake approaching a stoplight. I also get a bit of squeaking braking at low speeds. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with tracking the car last week causing deposit buildup on the rotors.

It looks like the front rotors have some deposit on them, can anyone confirm? If so, how can I resolve the problem? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've never experienced something like this before.
Since it's already here, the fronts are glazed and have spot deposits from material buildup in the cross-drilled holes sticking to the pads creating uneven contact. Use a pressure steamer with distilled water and blast every hole clean (do not use a hose or pressure washer). Then go through and re-bed the brakes, allowing them to cool properly in between the brake applications. It may take more than one cleaning/bedding, but as soon as the thick streaks are distributed across more of the rotor surface, they should be almost squeal-free.

I did these last night and it took 4 180-20 stops just to start and get them mostly evened out. Will need one more round, but they're getting down to the limit so I may just replace them. I dislike cross-drilled when it comes to track use, but no time to switch back as I'd just swapped them a few days ago.
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      05-12-2016, 10:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
If it's 10 or more for certain and you guys haven't sourced a place, I can recommend a couple of options for getting the pads there and installation support.

One important note, if anyone in the Group spec'd MCCB's, pads are an absolute must and the BMW break-in procedure (not Porsche, Ferrari, etc) followed. The pad change is a bit longer as well for that system, but it will be far easier on the rotors at Zandvoort and Spa since the pads are softer and spread a nice thick deposit at 500c and help keep them out of the danger zone for a shorter period. Nurburgring isn't too hard on them.

If anyone in the group is flying American, I'll donate use of my freight account for free since one of the organizers helped me out at Roebling Road (just don't smuggle anything unsavory...that won't go over well...and pay it forward). The process is easy if the instructions are followed and is done at a specific passenger check-in desk. They'll transit on the same flight and be available to retrieve on the carousel or in a pickup office near baggage claim on arrival. PM me if interested.

Another option is to see if it can be arranged with BMW to have the Sport Pads installed before or after pickup at the welt. It's a long shot at the last minute, but far stranger requests have been accommodated.

I've had the impression that track-side tech support is included with RS Touring events but possibly this is just too large of a group to handle so many brake swaps. We (partners included) are running at least 6 cars at Nurburgring 24, but have 9 entered. The decision on whether one or more of the BMW's will actually compete is still undecided as I can't drive and we're two short already due to the earthquakes in Japan. There there is a slight chance we'll have 2 full crew there to pick up slack with the other two teams. The U.K. Team has some slack as well since we're not running any LMP cars this year. That probably doesn't fit the group schedule though since that's at the end of the trip. I could see if there is a way to send 2 techs and a chief over early, but I can't donate that for free and it won't be a bargain. Something the group and organizers should discuss.
Thanks so much for your feedback and generous offer, but the brakes were ordered from Turner last week and arrived yesterday. Someone else in the group arranged the group buy from Turner and made all the shipping arrangements. They were sent to me at the Marriott because I've been in Munich since Sunday and if there were any additional duty or VAT charges it would just be charged to my room. I brought my own set which were sourced from HP Autosport in Santa Barbara. I was able to put the brakes and all of the necessary tools (except a floor jack!) in a 22" rollaboard and check it as a second piece of luggage at no extra cost for traveling in Lufthansa Premium Economy.

We have tentative arrangements for a garage at Zandvoort for a few hours the day before our track session there. If any opportunities arise prior to that we'll get as many changed as possible

Good luck in the Nurburgring 24h! I wish we could have extended our trip to attend that and MFest. We're driving directly from our Spa track day to Munich on Friday, May 27 to drop off the cars and fly out on the 28th. So close!
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