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      04-22-2017, 04:44 AM   #1
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BMW M sales exec says dual clutch, manual transmissions on their way out

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Stop fighting over which is the best between manual and dual-clutch transmissions; both of them might soon be gone.

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http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/b...rticleResults8

BMW M-Division: Dual-clutch gearbox dead on water

And the days looked numbered for manual transmission too.


The passenger-car transmission war will ultimately be won by the conventional, torque-converter automatic, according to BMW's M division.

And M's vice-president of sales and marketing, Peter Quintus, has given both the conventional manual and the double-clutch transmission just a handful of years to live.

When questioned by Drive on the subject of transmission technology and how it relates to the BMW version of the double-clutch, the DCT, Quintus' response was a surprising one.

"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go," he said. "How long will it last?"

Having already predicted the end of manual transmissions in the next six or seven years, Quintus confirmed that he believed we would all soon be making a return to the torque converter automatic.

"We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," he said.
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.

"Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

Interestingly, Quintus' view that the conventional manual is also doomed is not based solely on emissions. Instead, it's a case of being able to make a manual gearbox strong enough for the super-torquey new generation of engines. He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed.

So why not just shop somewhere like the USA for a manual transmission that can cope with the output of big, burly V8 engines?
"We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful," he said.

"I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox.
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Last edited by BM Creeper; 04-22-2017 at 05:49 AM.
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      04-22-2017, 06:54 AM   #2
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If you haven't driven a ZF 8 speed it really is amazing. One of the only auto transmissions I have ever driven that remotely comes close to being acceptable.

The shift quality is amazing, the down shifts even more so.

BMW uses a ZF locked into shiftable manual mode on some of its race cars.

The biggest reason manual will go away? Auto braking.

If the feds mandate auto braking there is no way to down shift a true manual to keep the car capable of operating in an auto braking mode. (without getting into some SMG bs)

And of all the self driving car things coming auto braking will be one of the first to be implemented as it has huge potential for safety.

Please note I don't agree with where it is going and will always choose a manual over an auto, but it is going this way.

So get em while you can!!!
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Last edited by Ric in RVA; 04-22-2017 at 08:00 AM.
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      04-22-2017, 07:11 AM   #3
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      04-22-2017, 07:52 AM   #4
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Nooooooooooooo

I know the ZF8 speed is good but I would rather pay a premium for DCT. Don't take this away!
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      04-22-2017, 08:41 AM   #5
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      04-22-2017, 08:49 AM   #6
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I read that also. Sounds like automatics are gonna be the only option in the future for M cars. My question for forum members is why can the hyper/super car manufactures continue to use DCTs with the supposed limitations? Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would also be switching to traditional automatics?
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      04-22-2017, 08:50 AM   #7
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If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.

However, I would lament the demise of the manual transmission. Had I had a choice of getting a manual, I would have one now.
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      04-22-2017, 09:44 AM   #8
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I saw that this was coming and is the reason why I bought my M3. It could be one of the last manual transmission BMWs. I plan to keep it a fairly long time and it could be worth a nice price when I eventually sell it.
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      04-22-2017, 09:45 AM   #9
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Umm, well, that sucks
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      04-22-2017, 09:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.

However, I would lament the demise of the manual transmission. Had I had a choice of getting a manual, I would have one now.
Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.
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      04-22-2017, 09:57 AM   #11
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The only limitation they mentioned was it's in capability to handle torque. But the M5 has almost 600ftlbs. I don't get it.
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      04-22-2017, 10:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JsL View Post
Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.
I don't know but the topic is BMW's implementation. I didn't say another company's DCT implementation was better. Just said how BMW released a product to the public with the problems the DCT has is just shameful. I get others haven't experienced the problems I or others that have the problems I noted above. But for those that haven't experienced the problems, it can get downright dangerous. I've learned to work around the problems when they do crop up. But I won't let my wife drive my car because if you don't expect the problem nor have experienced it, it'll lead to a high probability of a crash.

There are plenty of us on this board that have complained about the problems and sought various remedies. One person posted they just bought a 135is and is in the middle of trying to get the dealer/BMW to buy back the car due to the throttle issues.

The DCT is great if you're in a track situation where speeds don't drop below 20 MPH. But most of these cars don't live 100% on the track. BMW should have done their homework and worked on the transmission's behavior outside of the track especially in stop and go traffic. You won't understand when you're creeping along in stop and go traffic, hit the gas, and get 2 to 3 seconds of dead pedal with no movement from the car. Or when there is an opening where you're trying to merge into traffic, you hit the gas, the car creeps into the opening and the spacing you had now becomes you staring a the grill of the car almost smashing into you. None of what I've described are exaggerations and those that have this problem will 100% backup what I've said. And I haven't even gone into the car jumping forward with my foot on the brake which only some people with the DCT problems have experienced. I have a friend who is a BMW tech at the dealership I go to get my car serviced. He told me he finally got a chance to experience and understand the complaints I had about the DCT when he was doing a CPO check out of a 135i with a DCT. And said it's totally unacceptable for a car to drive like that.

Due to when I bought my car and my desire to buy new, I was stuck with getting an auto/DCT. But since I got stuck with an auto, I would have preferred to have the previous ZF over this DCT any day.
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      04-22-2017, 10:18 AM   #13
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eh, it'll be fine, whatever. The C63 already has a planetary gear wet clutch pack set up that's very close to a dual clutch box and, for example, the Chiron has a planetary set. By the time development is done everyone will be praising how technologically awesome it is and/or we'll all be driving electrics anyway.

I, for one, welcome our new massive torque overlords!
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      04-22-2017, 11:09 AM   #14
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Another day, another reason to not get another BMW.
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      04-22-2017, 11:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JsL View Post
Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.
Having recently spent a weekend in a McLaren 570s I have new respect for BMW's dct. The 570 was terrible in stop and go traffic and the shifts were no faster or more satisfying than the M. It sucks that other people have issues but that seems more like a repair problem than an inherent issue with the transmission. I could not be happier with the dct and can't imagine how it could perform better. It spends 5 days a week in downtown traffic then gets abused in the mountains on the weekends. Never had a hiccup.
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      04-22-2017, 11:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
eh, it'll be fine, whatever. The C63 already has a planetary gear wet clutch pack set up that's very close to a dual clutch box and, for example, the Huayra has a planetary set. By the time development is done everyone will be praising how technologically awesome it is and/or we'll all bedriving electrics anyway.

I, for one, welcome our new massive torque overlords!
LOL,
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      04-22-2017, 01:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Having recently spent a weekend in a McLaren 570s I have new respect for BMW's dct. The 570 was terrible in stop and go traffic and the shifts were no faster or more satisfying than the M. It sucks that other people have issues but that seems more like a repair problem than an inherent issue with the transmission. I could not be happier with the dct and can't imagine how it could perform better. It spends 5 days a week in downtown traffic then gets abused in the mountains on the weekends. Never had a hiccup.
If it was as easy as a repair problem then it should be easily fixed. But there's a group of us that have tried everything so what do you think we should do? First the PPK was suggested as a fix. I did that. Still have issues. Then there was a software update identified by a SIB. I did that too. Still have issues. Since that software update, BMW hasn't released anything else to address the problem. I tried going to a Dinan S2 tune. That for the most part corrected the issues with the DCT with the A/C off. But with the A/C on, the problem still persists. Unless BMW is willing to bench test a DCT and swap it out for my lemon of a trans or find a car that doesn't act up and swap me for it, I don't see any other solution.
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      04-22-2017, 01:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
If it was as easy as a repair problem then it should be easily fixed. But there's a group of us that have tried everything so what do you think we should do?
Link to a thread about these issues for the lazy?
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      04-22-2017, 01:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
If it was as easy as a repair problem then it should be easily fixed. But there's a group of us that have tried everything so what do you think we should do?
Link to a thread about these issues for the lazy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Having recently spent a weekend in a McLaren 570s I have new respect for BMW's dct. The 570 was terrible in stop and go traffic and the shifts were no faster or more satisfying than the M. It sucks that other people have issues but that seems more like a repair problem than an inherent issue with the transmission. I could not be happier with the dct and can't imagine how it could perform better. It spends 5 days a week in downtown traffic then gets abused in the mountains on the weekends. Never had a hiccup.
If it was as easy as a repair problem then it should be easily fixed. But there's a group of us that have tried everything so what do you think we should do? First the PPK was suggested as a fix. I did that. Still have issues. Then there was a software update identified by a SIB. I did that too. Still have issues. Since that software update, BMW hasn't released anything else to address the problem. I tried going to a Dinan S2 tune. That for the most part corrected the issues with the DCT with the A/C off. But with the A/C on, the problem still persists. Unless BMW is willing to bench test a DCT and swap it out for my lemon of a trans or find a car that doesn't act up and swap me for it, I don't see any other solution.
+1 for the link
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      04-22-2017, 02:22 PM   #20
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+1 for the link.

Never heard of that problem that affects so many cars. That would ruin BMW's entire reputation and could jeopardise its future as a top car manufacturer.

Let's call it the DCTgate !
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      04-22-2017, 02:33 PM   #21
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They're scattered among many different threads within the 1 series forum. Here are some I've been able to quickly find:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1251909

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=SIB+12-15-14

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=SIB+12-15-14

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=SIB+12-15-14

And the thread on when Dinan was having that half off sale for the S2 tune and a few of us chiming in about trying the tune to see if it helps with our DCT problems:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1348167

If you do a search for the SIB 12-15-14 and DCT lag, you'll find plenty of hits.
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      04-22-2017, 02:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.
Must be have lucky with my 135i DCT, as I never had any such issues like that in the 6 years I owned mine.
I thought it was a brilliant transmission.
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