2018 BMW M3 CS priced at $97,400

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But will the CS models be more adept on the track than any other M3 or M4? Why? Because they have a splitter, a diffuser, and a slightly bigger lip spoiler? Okay, maybe those things are marginal improvements, but for the driver of typical enthusiast-level skills (the vast majority of us), we are most probably talking about almost insignificant lap time improvement that could be attributed specifically to those modifications, if anything truly measurable at all.

Meanwhile the guy who buys a base M3/M4 and spends $15k on suspension and brakes will see real improvement for less money. Sure, those are aftermarket modifications instead of from the factory. But the CS models are far from factory track specials, so in reality you'd want to make those same changes to those cars too, if you are serious about making the cars more track worthy.

If the M3/M4 CS were about chassis improvements that people who track their cars would want to do, then yeah, that'd be great. But they aren't. Think about it like this:

Let's say BMW introduces two more models along side the M3/M4 CS called the M3 GT and M4 GT. Instead of any of the content that the CS offers - or really, any of the content that ZCP offers for that matter - they just offer better brakes, the M Performance HAS, and maybe throw in the engine tune. And then let's say that you can have any of those for the same price. Not unrealistic for the GT models I don't think, given the content offered. Now who out there that wants to track their car is genuinely picking the CS over the GT? It would be nearly no one. In fact it might actually be zero people. I wouldn't bet against that if I were the one who had to try to make that sale to a group of track-going enthusiasts.

The ZCP will be faster around the track than the Civic M3. Better suspension tuning, ediff, yada yada. Its Ring time shows this. I expect the additional modifications done on the CS will improve it further. We have the Ring times but they're muddied by the PSC2 tires.

I think of the CS (or ZCP for that matter) as BMW doing what the M3 has always been so good at -a single car to many different people- and improving it further with more of a nod to the track than other M3s.

When my E92 was almost completely stock it was very nice to add the Scroth QFP belts, track pads and camber and spend a weekend tracking, then take the same car to the airport to pick my parents up/drop kids off at school/etc.
As I've gone off the deep end adding BBK and now 2 or 3 way suspension, race seats, harness bar it's too far from stock to really enjoy on the street. It works fine for me because I have more cars to use on the street.
I have to point out that modding cars for track use is extremely time intensive and requires lots of space to keep your spares and OEM components. Besides the time, which again is a really big consideration, it takes sooooo much space!

The M3 CS seems like a godsend to people who have regular lives and can only have one car. That sounds like a joke, but living in the Northeast I've been in apartments most of the the time where it's impossible to have a second car. You also won't have room to store all the crap you take off a regular M3 to fit track components. So, an M3 CS would provide a wonderful 4 door car that can still do all the regular duties of BMW M3s and also have added reach at the track.

I'm sure an M3 CS with PSC2 tires can pull a 2:05 at Watkins Glen. If that's the case, it would be among the 5 fastest cars at most events in the fastest run group of PCA. There is no need to mod the car further, as beating half the Cup cars at an event with the same car you took your kids to school in that week is enough.

On a more general note, I've been wishing BMW built more track oriented packages for their M3s since the E46 M3. It annoys me Porsche is able to build 600 versions of the same car in slightly incremental performance envelopes yet BMW has usually given us a ZCP that barely, barely makes a difference.
Finally with the F8X they've built a package worthy of the ZCP name, and now they're making me even happier by building a 'ZCCP' which is the CS. I just wish you could add the CS package for 15k to a regular build and avoid all the limited edition BS

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

This does make the 911T seem more like a deal. Although my friend inquired about one, the dealer wanted $10k adm.

Agreed, but that is BS. Porsche NA has said they don’t want dealers doing this.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

The 911 GTS far outperforms the M4 GTS let alone a CS. The track times, handling and straight line as well as the subjective all show it’s quite a lob sided victory in favor of the 911. Even a 991S outperforms an M4 GTS even though it’s not on Cup2s. A base 911 on Cup tires would be as fast as the M4 GTS and easily faster than the CS which isn’t any faster than a Competiton pack car.

You talk about track, but Porsche’s in my experience and reality are much faster and more cut out for that. Sounds like your anecdote is related to your skills as a driver at an HPDE rather than guys at equal skill level competing for something but to each their own.

Mclarens don’t come with LSDs either in the 570 and that’s a 200k car. The commonality is that neither the 991 Base or 570 need one due to mechanical grip they have given they can pull well over 1.0g without one.

I'm not feeding the troll this time. How many times have you been banned from the forum?

[LukeM15]

Yea that’s crazy I believe anything close to the 100k people should be aiming for something else just my opinion.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Guys come on let's put some things into perspective. Let's build a similar yet not even close to as good a version M3 as the M3CS.

A fully equipped M3 ZCP without CCB cost =$81,800

Add:
$875 for M Performance steering wheel
$470 for M Performance CF rear spoiler
$1,256 for BMW CF front lip spoiler
$3,975 for M Performance exhaust
$5,000 for the Wheels
$5,000 for the CF hood
= $16,576

Total = $98,376

And all of that doesn't include all the other suspension, weight saving and engine upgrades as the M3CS.

You all need to stop complaining. $97,400 sounds right to me. What? Did you think it was going to cost $80k for the perfect M3? (Yes I said perfect.)

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I completely agree that the bang for the buck is higher in the regular M3/4 versions, but it's a curve of diminishing returns and it's standard across all cars.

If someone says they see more value in the base M3/4 than the CS I can't help but agree. However, there is also something nice about buying a factory car that is more adept at the track vs buying a base one and modding it. Namely the amount of work involved and the terrible resale of track-specific goodies.

The badge whores are probably the guys who, one after another, come to the BMW M forum and post variations of 'for that price I'd buy a Porsche', ignoring that you cannot buy any 911 for this price in the first place and that the closest in price to the CS is a stripper base 911 that doesn't even have a LSD. And which no one has purchased since the dawn of mankind.

Clearly, no one would make that assessment if they were interested in actual performance.

#this

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm not feeding the troll this time. How many times have you been banned from the forum?

Unsure what you’re taking about but you’re quite wrong and trying to distort fact for a personal agenda. Doesn’t that make you a troll?

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by KillrM3

Just like the E36 LTW that sat on dealers lot for extended amounts of time that were being sold below MSRP. Now try to find one not selling for double of the MSRP.

Dealers couldn't get rid of the E30 M3 when the MSRP in 1988 was around 35k. Now look at the values.

I think all of these haters will realize what the GTS is/was years from now.

GTS is a good car. Low production numbers will keep the car as a collector car. I expect the price of GTS to climb as time goes by.

The CS cars, while cool and in many regards what the f8x m3 should have been the entire time, will not be limited. The 'limited two year production' just means they are to be produced until the end of the f8x production. These will hold value over regular f8x but I don't expect them to scale proportionally to the expected value of a GTS / LTW / 1M or any other true limited or small production run.

[ilikebmxbikes]

And for those saying the CS is more adept at the track than the standard f8x - it's only more so by a small margin.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Ben Overlake

Anything into six figs is automatic 911 territory for me.

[bd307]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

And for those saying the CS is more adept at the track than the standard f8x - it's only more so by a small margin.

Ya this. Looking forward to see some laptimes from a CS on a west coast track so we can post some real life time comparison.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

GTS is a good car. Low production numbers will keep the car as a collector car. I expect the price of GTS to climb as time goes by.

The CS cars, while cool and in many regards what the f8x m3 should have been the entire time, will not be limited. The 'limited two year production' just means they are to be produced until the end of the f8x production. These will hold value over regular f8x but I don't expect them to scale proportionally to the expected value of a GTS / LTW / 1M or any other true limited or small production run.

The M3CS is a special car as there is no M3GTS it puts it in a league of its own. While I agree it is not limited is only going to be in production for a short time. Which in essence makes it limited. Very much like the Z4M coupe was not a limited car but the production run was 2 years and thus there are less than 1,815 Z4Ms in all of NA, and 4581 total in the world.

Expect prices for the M3/M4CS not to depreciate like most other BMWs.

[cwulffy]

Originally Posted by Ben Overlake

Anything into six figs is automatic 911 territory for me.

Originally Posted by Ben Overlake

Anything into six figs is automatic 911 territory for me.

Automatic manual* territory

[lax01]

Saw the car in person....its a parts bin car like the M2 Performance Edition. Plain and simple.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife

The M3CS is a special car as there is no M3GTS it puts it in a league of its own. While I agree it is not limited is only going to be in production for a short time. Which in essence makes it limited. Very much like the Z4M coupe was not a limited car but the production run was 2 years and thus there are less than 1,815 Z4Ms in all of NA, and 4581 total in the world.

Expect prices for the M3/M4CS not to depreciate like most other BMWs.

I agree the m3 CS is cool but I expect them to make more than you think.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The ZCP will be faster around the track than the Civic M3. Better suspension tuning, ediff, yada yada. Its Ring time shows this.

Well, kinda, sorta. But not really. The advertised ring time only demonstrates what professional driver's time would be and nothing more. Nobody (ok, almost nobody - maybe two or three of us) here is going to hop in an M3 CS and come close to even the base model M3's ring time, let alone the advertised M3 CS time. It is fact that the vast majority of people buying these cars don't have skills that professionals do. And the vast majority aren't driving on the ring either, for that matter.

Ring time numbers are a marketing tool. There's nothing wrong with discussing and comparing them, but let's keep things real and acknowledge that. Saying that car X is a better track car for Joe Enthusiast than car Y because a pro can drive it around a race course in Germany a few seconds faster doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument that car X is a good track car. Nor does it even come off as a strong argument that car X was created with the express purpose and intention of fulfilling such a role.

I expect the additional modifications done on the CS will improve it further. We have the Ring times but they're muddied by the PSC2 tires.

But as I said, even if that is true, it is nowhere near the benefit that a coil over suspension system and brake kit would have.

I think of the CS (or ZCP for that matter) as BMW doing what the M3 has always been so good at -a single car to many different people- and improving it further with more of a nod to the track than other M3s.

I think you are unfortunately allowing yourself to be a little more susceptible to BMW's marketing strategy than what's necessarily best for you in the long run.

To me - and I believe to most others - these cars were created to appeal not to the driving enthusiast. They were created to appeal to the car buyer who is willing to pay more - a significant amount more - than the rest of us so that they can have something more rare than what we have and that people in the know will be aware cost a fair amount more than the garden variety M3 the rest of us drive.

I just wish you could add the CS package for 15k to a regular build and avoid all the limited edition BS

That is exactly it. They won't let you do that because they want your $30k. The secret is to, for as little cost as possible, create the perception of as much added value as possible. And BMW knows that game well - it's about being different. How much different? Just different enough, that's how much. And its about being sold in small numbers. How small? Just small enough. And then finding a way to market it so that it seems like it is $30k better to the type of person I described above. That's the primary buyer for this car, because that's the way they designed the business case.

[Venere]

It's all relative to your disposable income and how you plan to use the car. I'm sure there are track guys out there who will be thrilled with the CS and happy to pay the price of admission. For me it's simply outside my budget, and the appeal of track days has worn off for me. I spec'd my civic 2018 M4 for street driving (yes, it's still a great DD and plenty of fun when let off the leash) and paid only $68K for it, $5K off sticker. I presume I am getting at least 80% of the fun (YMMV) of the ZCP/CS/GTS variants for a lot less money and a LOT less depreciation expense. I applaud BMW for offering all these variants, and couldn't be happier with the one I chose.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

GTS I specced out was close to 160k.

I specced one around $135K with options that are "must have" for me so it depends on what you are looking for in a car. I'm not interested in any luxury or comfort upgrades/options. Even at $140K, 911 GTS is a no brainer against M4 CS or GTS IMO. Hopefully it'll be my next car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But will the CS models be more adept on the track than any other M3 or M4? Why? Because they have a splitter, a diffuser, and a slightly bigger lip spoiler? Okay, maybe those things are marginal improvements, but for the driver with typical enthusiast-level skills (the vast majority of us), we are most probably talking about almost insignificant lap time improvement that could be attributed specifically to those modifications, if anything truly measurable at all.

Meanwhile the guy who buys a base M3/M4 and spends $15k on suspension and brakes will see real improvement for less money. Sure, those are aftermarket modifications instead of from the factory. But the CS models are far from factory track specials, so in reality you'd want to make those same changes to those cars too, if you are serious about making the cars more track worthy.

If the M3/M4 CS were about chassis improvements that people who track their cars would want to do, then yeah, that'd be great. But they aren't. Think about it like this:

Let's say BMW introduces two more models along side the M3/M4 CS called the M3 GT and M4 GT. Instead of any of the content that the CS offers - or really, any of the content that ZCP offers for that matter - they just offer better brakes, the M Performance HAS, and maybe throw in the engine tune. And then let's say that you can have any of those for the same price. Not unrealistic for the GT models I don't think, given the content offered. Now who out there that wants to track their car is genuinely picking the CS over the GT? It would be nearly no one. In fact it might actually be zero people. I wouldn't bet against that if I were the one who had to try to make that sale to a group of track-going enthusiasts.

I think part of the CS improvements are EDC, e-diff, DCT and EPS tuning to take better advantage of stickier R-compound tires and beefier torque curve. Will it make a substantial difference in terms of lap times for most amateurs? Most likely not. But I think it will contribute to make the car feel "tighter" and more enjoyable when driving on track.

The F8X does not really need better brakes IMO, so that is a moot point.

But I do agree that they could have the CS much more appealing by having the MP-HAS as a standard feature. I think it would have made the car much closer to it's marketed intent.

[espressoo]

$97K with CCB is justified however that's simply not the case. That's probably another $8K option.

I wonder if by next NOV/DEC you can tack on discounts and incentives and land one at $90K though?? I can see more people buying one for $90K since like others have mentioned a well optioned ZCP is already $80K. The CS adds CF goodies, better wheels/tires, and a nice performance increase. People would pay $10K for that but if it's instead $17K more, that's a stretch without throwing in free CCBs.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The ZCP will be faster around the track than the Civic M3. Better suspension tuning, ediff, yada yada. Its Ring time shows this.

We do not have apple-to-apples 'ring time comparisons between base and CP M4. What we do have:

AM&S Supertest times:
7:52 M4 Base
7:42 M4CS
7:37 M4GTS

Factory times:
7:45 M4CP (deduced from the ///M head of engineering video)
7:35 M4CS
7:28 M4GTS

[minn19]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think part of the CS improvements are EDC, e-diff and EPS tuning to take better advantage of stickier R-compound tires. Will it make a substantial difference in terms of lap times for most amateurs? Most likely not. But I think it will contribute to make the car feel "tighter" and more enjoyable when driving on track.

But isn't this what the ZCP version is/was supposed to do? Aside from the R compound tires being standard, it would still help when a ZCP owner decides to put them on.

How much better do you think these enhancements will be over the ZCPs enhancements?