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10-02-2012, 04:27 PM | #419 | ||||
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10-02-2012, 05:02 PM | #420 | |
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Again this discussion/debate began around BMWs motivations. To understand their motivations we simply must look at company strategy, their increasing focus on cost and part commonality. Most M owners want to have a special (i.e. rare) car (even if only slightly more special/rare than the base model). The M3/4 of tomorrow is becoming less special with respect to engines. And, again, these choices are not being made at the heavy hand of green politicians and governments. The volume of M cars is way too low to affect fleet average consumption in any appreciable fashion.
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10-02-2012, 05:16 PM | #421 | ||
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This is largely about preference. You like turbos, you like big single turbos, you like turbo lag. That's fine. My preference and the preference of BMW M is completely different. Quote:
Last but not least I never called you ignorant, I said narrow minded and arrogant. Please do not put words in my mouth.
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10-02-2012, 05:17 PM | #422 |
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I could have the balance wrong, but I recall hearing that BMW sold more M3's than 328's or 335's for at least one model year. The M3 is not rare. When I had my M Coupe, M3's were like taxi cabs. If you want a rare BMW, do not buy an M3. Of course using the rare logic, a 5GT would be stellar!
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10-02-2012, 05:34 PM | #423 | |
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I also believe Swamp was saying the M3 is relatively rare. I live in L.A., you certainly see them but not in their droves unless it's a car meet. The M coupe was rare not due to limited production but due to limited demand. Last edited by Carl L; 10-02-2012 at 05:46 PM.. Reason: typo |
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10-02-2012, 05:46 PM | #424 | ||
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10-02-2012, 06:23 PM | #425 | |
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10-02-2012, 07:07 PM | #426 | |
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Perhaps I can answer with an option that we can all choose from. 1. Because both BMW Marketing (many of whom drive or race competitively and have engineering backgrounds) AND BWM M Engineering are solving a non existent problem based on a misunderstanding of jargon (lag vs. boost threshold). In solving this non existent problem they are wasting 10's of millions of dollars or R&D and production costs on much more complex engines, with more parts and greater potential maintenance and warranty concerns. 2. Such and arrangement produces an engine with real and different characteristics which have advantages both from a feel perspective and when driving aggressively on a road type course. Similarly because customers have spoken with their pocketbooks and desire an engine that has the feel and performance character of an NA engine. In short #1 is your contention and #2 is mine.
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10-02-2012, 07:09 PM | #427 |
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Correct. In this range of 15-25k has been the typical annual sales of BMW M3s across multiple generations of the car. Thus this typically amounts to a sale of about 100k cars over a model lifespan.
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10-03-2012, 01:30 AM | #428 | |
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10-03-2012, 07:34 AM | #429 | ||
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First of all ... +10 ... very good post !
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The BMW AG tolerate this and because of the the relative high price increase for an M-Car over an regular BMW they make also profit with this cars -> every thing was right ... the the M-GmbH brings profit for the BMW AG and the customers get there desired cars ... unique - special - full of M(Racing) spirit ... bud sadly this has change in the recent year ... making profit now isn´t good enough - more (as much as possible!) profit is better and the only way to got (in the BMW AG opinion like much other branches). Because of THIS and only THIS ... single kind developments like the high rev-engines for the M cars would be ruled out because of their high(higher) production costs ... if the same (needed Hp rates) could be achieved with and cheaper AG-based engine with much common parts ... and the BMW marketing branch gave this an green touch and make this to an "special" and M-worthy engine. What the M fans wants and get until today doesn´t interrest the BMW AG because the now ... at the end they think they sell enough M-Cars at the same high price but with much more profit because of the "cheap" engine. No one of us really knows what mpg the S65 could achieve in an much lighter car as the F8x would be ... the main problem of the relativ low mpg numbers of the E9x M3 was the weight of this car, which isn´t really suited well to work with an high-revving enginge ... even the M3s mpg is much better than other cars in its class ! Quote:
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10-03-2012, 08:04 AM | #430 | |
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10-03-2012, 08:30 AM | #431 | |
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10-03-2012, 08:57 AM | #432 | |
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If M-GmbH technicans says the new developed V6 was in all points better than the I6 based on the N55 ... I beleave them. And only on an V6 you can use the "best responding turbo system" of the world this one of the S63Tü - with minimal lag ... it don´t works on an inline engine. And if you look at the GT-R you could easily see what an improofment the change from an I6 BiTurbo to an V6 BiTurbo could be !!! Only one of many reasons to choose an V6 over an I6 in an sportscar. |
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10-03-2012, 10:13 AM | #433 |
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V6 is shorter/more compact so helps keep weight off the front reducing understeer. That said, I'd rather have a well thought out I6 than half-assed V6 (not that I think it would've been but more to illustrate the difference isn't huge between layouts).
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10-03-2012, 10:17 AM | #434 | |
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I'd have preferred the GTS 4.4 allied to lower weight and some mpg improvements but I still have faith the S55 will be a very good and well suited engine. Remember, this car is only likely to be 100 lbs lighter so torque is going to be welcome (even though I do not find the current 4.0 lacking due to its perfect gearing) |
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10-03-2012, 10:20 AM | #435 | |
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Sure E92 had a more special engine, but that was helped by the fact that the M3 GTR had a tuned version of this engine for racing, and it existed in V10 format already. Easy to lop off 2 cylinders. If the S65 didn't have such a short stroke (poor for turbocharging) they could again lop off another 2 cylinders to make V6 Turbo. As for more options turbo charging a V engine, that is rubbish, an inline engine is much easier to plumb. |
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10-03-2012, 10:33 AM | #436 |
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Good post. V's also have less oil pan surge. But pain to plumb turbo wise especially if going sequential turbo. Video on BMW's web site of 540D triple turbo is a good example of how easy on an inline 6.
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10-03-2012, 12:31 PM | #437 | |
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F1 boss and Ferrari boss have a problem with the way the turbo V6 sounds. A SPEED report notes Ecclestone's reaction: "I listened to the noise of the engines in Maranello the other day,the new engine and the old engine,and even (Ferrari President) Luca di Montezemolo said it sounded terrible." That whine of a high-revving V8 has become an integral part of the identify of F1 –it may be imprudent to meddle with with such an important part of the brand. SPEED is reporting that Ecclestone believes the introduction of the turbocharged V6 mill should be postponed or even dropped altogether. |
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10-03-2012, 12:47 PM | #438 | |
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Until today all M3 engines only share the general engine block design with their AG counterparts on which they were based. Really all other parts are unique and specialy developed for M tasks ... in most cases the displacement was higher and even the material of the block in some cases was different. The main reason for this change in simple ... it was the only way to get the needed M Power out of the N/A engines ... this is for me what I define as "unique and special developed" M engine !!! In the case of the engine F8x I am relativ shure that would be not the case ... many if not most of the parts which would be new in the "heavily modified" S55(?) we would see short time later in the N55 sucessor - named N55Tü or N5(?) ... simply because cost-reduction be many common parts is the new credo of the BMW AG - also for the special, low-production and high-priced M cars ... best example is the N63, were most of the new developed parts for the S63Tü come in AG form as the new N63Tü .... sorry, but this is for me what I not define as "unique and special developed" and therefor an for me not M-worthy engine !!! AND its simply not true that an inline engine is the best choise for an turbo engine ... according to all experts and car journalists the best turbo engine developed until today (in terms of the main turbo problem - lag) is the S63Tü ... and this turbosystem could never be adopted to an inline engine. Last edited by Uli_HH; 10-03-2012 at 12:55 PM.. |
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10-03-2012, 01:11 PM | #439 | |
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Yeah I know, I know... lag is misused jargon and a "non existent" problem that silly BMW marketeers and tinkerers are trying to solve anyway... Read up here on cross-bank turbo charging. The configuration is also more compact and contributes to an improved weight distribution. One drawback of the V6 is that is requires considerable mechanical balancing (robs some power) whereas the I6 has perfect first and second order balance.
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10-03-2012, 01:21 PM | #440 |
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I hear what you say....
Do you not think that it is the cylinder head that makes the biggest difference to defining what 'special' is? I'm pretty sure the S55 will have a all new cylinder head, pistons and conrods. Most likely Crankshaft too. For sure the Turbo arrangement will be unique, and according to the GURU above BMW M will ensure it has NO lag as that is what people want The N55 of course has plenty of lag. |
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