What happens when you assume? or "Alacantra revealed"

[nonagon]

myzmak, I've thought about this before too and agree. Alcantara, while having benefits as a car interior material (non-reflective, grippy, durable, stain resistance) is mostly coveted because it has an exotic sounding name. Alcantara. It's fun to say and sounds as if it's crafted from the hide of an obscure animal.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Brosef

it's desirable because it emulates suede, which is a super premium fabric. it's synthetic though, so it's extremely durable. win-win.

As I say, I get the practical benefit of it but not why it would be considered 'premium' or 'luxury'.

It is just polyester and polyurethane. Cheap and abundant synthetic fibers that they made #$@#!#$ cheap suits out of in the 1970s. Its only 'exclusivity' is based on marketing.

Put another way, from a 'function' or 'practicality' point of view, the cloth/carbon structure seats are much better than the leather. Yet we pay for the leather because of its exclusivity. Why would we pay more (or conceive of Alacantra as being 'more premium') when, frankly, it is no more exclusive or rare than the cloth seats? Why, other than people swallowing the marketing machine that is Alacantra?

if you've never checked out the website, I recommend it. It proves more than I ever could that the 'exclusive value' of this product is just 100% marketing...

http://www.alcantara.com/en/index.do

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by nonagon

myzmak, I've thought about this before too and agree. Alcantara, while having benefits as a car interior material (non-reflective, grippy, durable, stain resistance) is mostly coveted because it has an exotic sounding name. Alcantara. It's fun to say and sounds as if it's crafted from the hide of an obscure animal.

Yup.

[E90Fleet]

Problem wit it on the headliner is everyone thinks they must make finger lines in it if they are a passenger.

[Wah]

I didn't realize (or didn't think about it until you opened this thread) that Alcantara is a tradename for a proprietary product with a patented production process. (Say that three times quickly). In a way, now it makes more sense to me why its so expensive. It looks like suede, feels like suede, is more durable, is fire retardant, stain resistant, grippy, etc... And most importantly, the technology behind it is owned by one company. Everything else is just a copy (including the microfiber couch I have at home). I don't know but I would imagine that the generic microfiber fabrics are not nearly as good as Alcantara.

It sort of reminds me of Gore-Tex. There are other fabrics just like it... waterproof, breathable, soft, etc... but for a long time, there was no substitute and to get the real deal Gore-Tex jacket, you paid too much for it. Yet, it is still a manufactured product whose real value is the patented technology behind it.

Or maybe I'm just a sucker like the rest of us.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Wah

Or maybe I'm just a sucker like the rest of us.

... Yes, you are. You basically listed all the reasons women can't let you guys go shopping alone.

[anerbe]

Just because it's synthetic, doesn't mean it's not an improved version of a natural product like suede. Many people get fooled about Alcantara that it's a form of suede leather. In terms of tactile feel and comfort, it's much more natural like vs. the synthetic leather/vinyl/leatherette found in most vehicles today. Most people can tell a big difference between fake and real leather.

Perhaps it's like condoms. People choose cloth/leatherette like latex. It'd durable, offers the most protection and it's the cheapest, but it doesn't feel quite right. Lambskin is like leather/suede; it feels much more luxurious, but doesn't offer quite the protection/durability. It's also more expensive.

Would people pay more for a synthetic lambskin (Alcantara) - feels more natural while offering more protection? Not everybody, but I'm sure it has a good business case.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Wah

I didn't realize (or didn't think about it until you opened this thread) that Alcantara is a tradename for a proprietary product with a patented production process. (Say that three times quickly). In a way, now it makes more sense to me why its so expensive. It looks like suede, feels like suede, is more durable, is fire retardant, stain resistant, grippy, etc... And most importantly, the technology behind it is owned by one company. Everything else is just a copy (including the microfiber couch I have at home). I don't know but I would imagine that the generic microfiber fabrics are not nearly as good as Alcantara.

It sort of reminds me of Gore-Tex. There are other fabrics just like it... waterproof, breathable, soft, etc... but for a long time, there was no substitute and to get the real deal Gore-Tex jacket, you paid too much for it. Yet, it is still a manufactured product whose real value is the patented technology behind it.

Or maybe I'm just a sucker like the rest of us.

You are.

Wiki says that Alacantra and ultrasuede are effectively the same (and, if anything, ultrasuede might be better...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasu..._vs._Alcantara

marketing marketing marketing marketing marketing.

Originally Posted by Lups

... Yes, you are. You basically listed all the reasons women can't let you guys go shopping alone.

Fair.

the power of a 'brand name' (Gore Tex is a good example) that may have no practical benefit is powerful.

Originally Posted by anerbe

Just because it's synthetic, doesn't mean it's not an improved version of a natural product like suede. Many people get fooled about Alcantara that it's a form of suede leather. In terms of tactile feel and comfort, it's much more natural like vs. the synthetic leather/vinyl/leatherette found in most vehicles today. Most people can tell a big difference between fake and real leather.

Perhaps it's like condoms. People choose cloth/leatherette like latex. It'd durable, offers the most protection and it's the cheapest, but it doesn't feel quite right. Lambskin is like leather/suede; it feels much more luxurious, but doesn't offer quite the protection/durability. It's also more expensive.

Would people pay more for a synthetic lambskin (Alcantara) - feels more natural while offering more protection? Not everybody, but I'm sure it has a good business case.

Again, though, I'm not doubting its practical benefits or advantages (I think this is the 5th time I've said that now). I accept for the purposes of this discussion it is more practically useable than leather.

My point is that it isn't remotely premium or luxury because it isn't remotely exclusive.

High quality leather is exclusive because:
- it depends on the breed of cow
- it depends on the physical characteristics of the cow/hide (ie: any markings), etc
- it depends on the skill of the tanner
- it depends on the skill of the leatherworker to dye/cut into sheets for seats, etc

All of those things are finite and limited. That makes them exclusive and thus makes top quality leather intrinsically worth some premium.

Alacantra is just polyester and polyurethane manufactured. Those are not limited goods and the manufacturing process can, in theory, be limitless. (unlike cows and artisans, which cant just be 'manufactured' off an assembly line).

Worse, it is just a brand name for a certain type of otherwise readily available product (ultrasuede) and attracts a premium price or image because of branding.

this all applies triple to the infamous 'Alacantra headliner' I mentioned in my OP. When this car came out, there was no shortage of F10'ers over here bemoaning the lack of an Alacantra headliner. Which, of course, has no practical benefit at all. It isn't a more grippy/less staining seat/steering wheel. It is a part of the car you don't touch and it is just mass produced fake suede.

My point is many seem to have guzzled the Kool-Aid without thinking about it.

[Wah]

But its so much easier to just pay the premium and not think about things...

[minn19]

It is definitely a personal thing, but I cannot stand the touch of suede or Alacantra. I don't find it particularly premium looking over a car that is tastefully appointed with leather or cloth. Just different IMO.

[Brennan ///M4]

This is nothing new really, you don't need to look any further than the diamond industry to see just how easily manipulated we are as a species.

I've never cared for alcantara myself. I understand its function in a stripped out race car, but in a high dollar luxury performance car I much prefer the look and feel of leather (which honestly these days is no more exclusive than any other upholstery). The one that really gets me lately is the recent influx of people buying Euro-spec tail lights for the amber turn signals. 10 years ago everyone was trying to get rid of the amber lights on European cars, and now that they're gone we're paying extra to get them back ... I guess people will always want what they don't have.

No disrespect to anyone who likes alcantara or amber lights intended of course!

[Wah]

Originally Posted by myzmak

You are.

Wiki says that Alacantra and ultrasuede are effectively the same (and, if anything, ultrasuede might be better...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasu..._vs._Alcantara

marketing marketing marketing marketing marketing.

But is Ultrasuede cheaper than Alcantara? I don't think it is. The problem is people use the term "ultrasuede" to describe the generic microfiber material, when in fact it is also a trademarked name, and patented material by the same company. The wiki you link to refers to the real Ultrasuede.... not the shit on my couch at home. Again, this is all assuming the real stuff is much better than the generic microfiber stuff, which I don't know enough about to compare them. I'm just saying the premium you pay is for the technology, not the raw materials. A better comparison would be Alcantara/Ultrasuede vs. generic microfiber upholstery.

[rubber_ducky]

I didn't read the jalopnik article and only skimmed this thread, but as I understand it, Alcantara is only black or dark-grey. Any other color, despite being made of the same material, can't be referred to as Alcantara.

From skimming various GT3 threads, it seems that the orange interior available in that car is marketed as "microfiber".

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by rubber_ducky

I didn't read the jalopnik article and only skimmed this thread, but as I understand it, Alcantara is only black or dark-grey. Any other color, despite being made of the same material, can't be referred to as Alcantara.

From skimming various GT3 threads, it seems that the orange interior available in that car is marketed as "microfiber".

If you look at their web page
http://www.alcantara.com/en/index.do
you will see that Alcantara comes in every color imaginable.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by myzmak

As I say, I get the practical benefit of it but not why it would be considered 'premium' or 'luxury'.

It is just polyester and polyurethane. Cheap and abundant synthetic fibers that they made #$@#!#$ cheap suits out of in the 1970s. Its only 'exclusivity' is based on marketing.

Put another way, from a 'function' or 'practicality' point of view, the cloth/carbon structure seats are much better than the leather. Yet we pay for the leather because of its exclusivity. Why would we pay more (or conceive of Alacantra as being 'more premium') when, frankly, it is no more exclusive or rare than the cloth seats? Why, other than people swallowing the marketing machine that is Alacantra?

if you've never checked out the website, I recommend it. It proves more than I ever could that the 'exclusive value' of this product is just 100% marketing...

http://www.alcantara.com/en/index.do

I'm not sure you're keeping things in perspective. what's relevant is that the fabric used for conventional roofliners vs. alcantara. you might not like the look, feel, whatever. but I would bet money that alcantara is a more expensive alternative, and most people (myself included) would probably say that it looks and feels a lot nicer and more premium. ergo, it's typically seen only on high end cars.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I'm not sure you're keeping things in perspective.

Mostly I'm not taking this issue too seriously.....this isn't something I'm going to write angry letters to congress about (mostly because, well, I'm not American so the congressmen would be all 'who the f--k is this guy?')

what's relevant is that the fabric used for conventional roofliners vs. alcantara. you might not like the look, feel, whatever. but I would bet money that alcantara is a more expensive alternative, and most people (myself included) would probably say that it looks and feels a lot nicer and more premium. ergo, it's typically seen only on high end cars.

The original (and only) point I wanted to make was that Alacantra is not really that exotic and has little intrinsic value.

Given that it is just produced synthetic fiber, it really can't be that premium. More premium than the usual cloth headliner? ....ok, but that is like saying bounty paper towels are more premium than generic brand. In true value, we are talking rather fine lines/de minimus.

I think it is interesting that this idea that Alacantra is somehow rare or exotic or high end has been created when, in fact, it is just a particular type of microfiber.

And it is far from the worst example of branding/people pushing high end out of nothing.

The ultimate headliner example? The Rolls Royce "Starlight" Headliner.

Little lights in your #$!!$@ headliner.



Wooo. probably another $52 in materials for those lights. Maybe $200 if they sourced them from 'artisanal' LED light makers.

But what does the option cost?

$12,000.

no.

that isn't a typo.

It was a 12-fucking-thousand-fucking-dollar option.

[edit - correction - contrary to earlier post, that is the USD cost (not CAD as I thought). Carry on with your shock and outrage and awe]

The point is: people pay stupid amounts for stupid things.

Alacantra may not be that extreme.....but, well, it certainly nudges in that direction.

[SakhirM4]

Now c'mon - they had to do something after they killed all the Naugas making Naugahyde. So they came up with Alcantara (not Alcantra) for the rich people

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Now c'mon - they had to do something after they killed all the Naugas making Naugahyde. So they came up with Alcantara (not Alcantra) for the rich people

In fact, I secretly operate the world's last remaining herd of free range Naugas.

Really, this whole thread was a ruse to see if I could get a line on some Alacatralopes too. I'd like to corner the exotic synthetic animal market (naturally, my business is based in Vegas....)

[Mischik]

Originally Posted by myzmak

No, I don't make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'. I feel like a #$!#@!@$!@ moron.

In all the original whining and bellyaching about how the F8X didn't offer Alacantra this and that (especially the headliners, we were told - cue hysterical track: "how can we live without the F10's Alacantra headliners? Those other cars have Alacantra headliners! Why not us! Dear God above won't someone please think of the children!" etc) I have to say....I just assumed Alacantra was, you know, actually nice suede.

Like, it was a real, natural, somewhat rare/hard to make and thus exclusive and expensive fabric.

As many of you probably knew, ummmm, no. No it isn't. It is just ultrasuede or, as others might call it, fake suede.

It is the same crap that they put on cheap couches at Sears that they tell you won't stain.

http://jalopnik.com/what-the-hell-is...way-1604799947

So why do we care about it again?

Because we can roll around in it naked

[Guynamedsean]

I thought it was cool because race car, but after having it, I would rather avoid it if possible. Mainly because it's a huge pain in the ass to clean. Now if I get a car with an alcantara wheel I just avoid getting it dirty as long as possible and avoid cleaning it all together.

Most detailing resources recommend brushing it with a soft toothbrush to release dirt. Then cleaning with terry cloth damp with mild cleaner. The wheel is wet at this point. Take dry towel, squeeze excess water from wheel, until wheel is dry. Brush again to bring up nap.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Mischik

Because we can roll around in it naked

.......fair. Fair. Fair.

But, the problem is, on the headliners, I basically have to roll my car first to do that.

I mean....some issues there.

[OneRib]

Alcantara is pure marketing. It's fake suede and probably cheap to make. I don't/wouldn't mind it for a headliner, but would never get excited about it. I hate when it's on steering wheels and gearshifts. I was looking into a used CTS-V years ago and couldn't stand all the cars optioned with alcantara steering wheels and shift knobs.

Just give me leather and stop trying to be fancy.