04-07-2022, 02:53 PM | #23 | |
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04-07-2022, 04:12 PM | #24 |
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Would be nice if a true metallurgical RCA was performed not an assumption to truly understand what caused the failure. Was it impacted by rub, LCF or HCF?
That's what we do with our gas turbine blading, a good idea would be to integrate a speed sensor into your compressor housing so tuners know the limit based on your maps. Do you have maps for your compressor/turbine wheel as I've never have seen one? Typically operating speeds are around 100,000 to 250,000 rev/min, depending on wheel size. Maybe take a peek at the turbo serial #, verify VSR and see if anything was out of balance for higher compressor/turbine speed. As good practice, it would be beneficial to offer the VSR report should the buyer asks for it. My .02C.
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04-07-2022, 05:31 PM | #25 | |
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Operating speeds for turbochargers that utilize our frame size are nowhere near 250,000 rpm. In addition, no ball bearing technology could ever support those types of shaft speeds. Also, vsr balancing doesn't work in the manner you're describing. All our turbos are balanced below 1g via a Schenck balancer and the data for each serial number is then cataloged for internal purposes. In addition, a turbo that is balanced at low shaft speeds and out of balance at high shaft speeds will look like a dyno graph on the vsr screen. A balance that continues to climb as shaft speed climbs, even within range, is never an acceptable practice. A correctly balanced rotor group should either be flat or have a downward slope as shaft speed increases. This method also helps reduce vibration during overspeed conditions. Having said that, there is no need for us to go back to confirm if there was any balancing issue with a specific serial number. If a turbocharger doesn't pass our balancing requirements it is never shipped out. In the hypothetical scenario that a turbocharger was shipped out of balance, it would fail almost immediately at wot with this type of boost level and not 1000 miles later. Lastly, a balancing issue would not cause the turbine inducer to break off blades in an empty cavity unless the turbine wheel broke off the shaft making contact with the housing which did not occur. Last edited by Sales@KRATOS; 04-08-2022 at 11:18 AM.. |
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04-07-2022, 07:23 PM | #26 | |
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And to your point, never say never in regard to balancing or material defect. I've seen turbine blades fail due to a tinny material defect (pit) on a part which passed QA/QC and have been in operation for 1000's of hours, there's always room for improvement in everything we do. One final thought, you're 100% certain that this turbine wheel failure was not HCF? As you all know, a turbo can encounter high load cycles for prolonged periods on a dyno, long street pulls or racetrack. HCF will cause wheel deformity in those types of conditions which will cause failure. I'm guessing this wheel was standard and not Ti. Thanks for taking the time to respond
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04-08-2022, 11:06 AM | #27 | |
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With respect to the view that we need to be more forthcoming with information, we would have to respectfully disagree. Since the release of our KRAS55Bi turbo system to date, we have provided actual back pressure data, compressor flow lbs/min, speed sensor data, bearing technology data, vsr balancing data, dyno data, log data, dragy data, etc. On the contrary, many end users praise the fact that we offer more data and information than they've experienced from any other company offering turbo systems for the S55 platform. We also don't feel the need to execute NDA's with any tuner as the information we disclose is to the general public is more than sufficient for an experienced tuner to provide a solid and reliable tune. Any professional tuner that has experience with our turbochargers knows exactly what to look for and what to expect based on our turbocharger's capabilities. However, we understand that not all builds are the same and that is the responsibility of the tuner to decipher what modifications need to be made in the tune to accommodate for those differences. We are also quite certain that this failure was not due to HCF. Our Engineers are very familiar with the causes that lead to HCF. However, they've seen this type of failure before and can easily recognize the root cause based on their knowledge and experience. Keep in mind that every batch of our turbo systems is sample tested utilizing 3rd party Fracture Toughness Testing which is performed according to ASTM E399 & ASTM E1820 Standards. In addition, Fatigue Testing which is performed according to ASTM E466, ASTM E606, BS-EN 6072, & BS-EN 7270 Standards. These are rigorous factory OEM style testing protocols that we are quite certain no other company producing OEM fitment turbocharger upgrades is performing. |
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04-08-2022, 07:18 PM | #28 |
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One layman customer makes a thread after spending money he didn't want to spend, and the business has to spend hours in a (probably futile) attempt to defend its reputation.
Meanwhile hundreds of readers will skim the first post and decide that the product is suspect. I think that unless you are 100% certain that their product was defective (which would require a third-party assessment of the damage by qualified professionals) you should handle your dispute in private. |
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04-08-2022, 07:31 PM | #29 | |
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As the post is titled it's My experience. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the point is I have failed turbos and received poor customer service. Weather they failed due to the tune or not, those two stand |
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M2_MEDUSA666.00 |
04-08-2022, 08:14 PM | #30 | |
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04-08-2022, 08:32 PM | #31 | |
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And you should probably have your shit together before you, as a layman, try to debate turbo engineers about the cause of the failure. |
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04-08-2022, 09:38 PM | #32 |
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I beg to differ. Right now we have a failed turbo and neither customer nor manufacturer is able to prove the cause of failure.
How can customer prove beyond doubt the reason of failure? And we also know that manufacturer’s given reason of failure is also a best guess at this point, which has somewhat been given less credibility by an independent tuner’s opinion. |
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04-08-2022, 10:38 PM | #33 | |
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04-09-2022, 03:28 AM | #34 |
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very far in fact from being convincing of their cause of turbo damage analysis. I've looked at both logs, and their claim of severe timing corrections + high boost (36psi) being the cause of damage is highly suspect. They also said that they are led to believe this due to there not being any evidence of other physical damage. The timing corrections I see in the logs are easily evident in many other logs even on OTS maps, and there was no knock event recorded as well. and 36psi being high boost for Kratos turbos? That's a joke.
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04-09-2022, 02:47 PM | #35 | |
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Kratos seems to charge much more and this isn't the first time they have been extremely shady in regards to turbo warranty. They had a platform here to say you know what we will go ahead and warranty it WHICH would put more confidence in the consumer. But instead they chose ego based of information they cant ACTUALLY PROVE and chose the opposite route. Now 1,000+ members of this forum posting is seeing them for what they truly are. And the viewer count will only continue to grow. And dont worry, word of mouth will spread like wild fire OP. The appropriate response to such an issue would be to cover 50% of the warranty considering you've failed to truly prove your case of what actually did happen. Ill say this. Stiffing 100% of the cost to OP was definitely not the right answer and the fact that you didnt even cover a percentage is honestly sad.
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Last edited by M2_MEDUSA; 04-09-2022 at 03:31 PM.. |
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04-09-2022, 03:05 PM | #36 |
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Finally received the turbos this morning. Unfortunately, they didn't come back in the nice KRATOS box that I sent them. Looks like these "upgraded" compressor wheels are no longer painted orange. Youtube link for video and pictures below.
Last edited by RodF82; 04-09-2022 at 03:12 PM.. |
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04-09-2022, 04:17 PM | #38 |
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Yikes, 1500-mile oil changes seem excessive, I ran E50/100% meth on my previous platform and religiously changed oil @ 6000 miles as a daily. Every sample was sent to Blackstone labs and never had any issues with water or fuel in the oil... Ran Penzoil 0w-40 European formula from Walmart (lol) for over 100k miles, no issues.
The first turbo on your video shows a lot more play than the other, weird or my eyes playing tricks on me!! I wonder what's the tolerance and were they balanced? @OP, sell the turbos recoup some cash and buy a 4N single turbo and put this behind you...
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04-09-2022, 05:34 PM | #39 | ||
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04-09-2022, 06:22 PM | #40 | |
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A quick search through the forums is enough to show that both VTT and Pure turbos have had issues as well; no system is bullet proof, especially when you take into consideration all of the variables that go into a build and have the potential to cause issues. Friendly advice to anyone researching turbo systems from someone who has: do your own research and don't rely on one post alone to dictate your decisions. https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...505&page=2 https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1278244 https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1731840 https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...744&page=2
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04-09-2022, 07:35 PM | #41 |
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@RodF82 if these were from Tony V you would have been told to buy a whole new set. The only customer service over there is the angry kind…
Even though you had an unfortunate event you still made a good choice in going with Kratos.
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04-09-2022, 07:45 PM | #42 | |
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Motul 300V race oil has great shear protection but little additives to protect from contamination. I can see why they ask to change it often. I get mine free from FCPEuro.
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04-09-2022, 07:55 PM | #43 | |
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What stands is a company failed to offer a warranty based off assumption. That hasnt changed and stuck 100% of the cost to OP without a strong case. Its bad business. My opinion still stands based off everything ive seen. If you read, youll understand I was looking at kratos, But because OP I prefer great customer service. It doesnt matter what other companys did and didnt do. Fact of the matter is, we are here right now reading all this and Kratos colors really showed. Please take your thoughts on me elsewhere Plus you seem to not understand this isnt about the turbos failing or not. Never was. It's about how they stiff armed OP with a poor case and assumption
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04-09-2022, 08:32 PM | #44 | |
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While I'm aware that the issue is not necessarily about the turbos failing, the same argument stands: both VTT and Pure have had instances of refused warranties as a result of some sort of failure, and the same thing was said about their customer service at the time. Every business will have its outliers, but that's why it's important not to base a companies reputation off of just one review without performing due diligence and researching them further.
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