We Talk M3 / M4 Nurburgring Time, Electric Steering & Other Tech Highlights w/ BMW M

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Racer20

By the way, The Z28 is BARELY a street car. It's probably one of the most track-oriented cars on the market today, especially at that level. The tires alone are worth a couple seconds a lap on a NORMAL race track in the US, let alone the 'ring.

When the Z28 was lapping the ring and setting its time, there was also a factory C7 there and yet GM hasn't announced a ring time for the Z51 C7. Lots of speculation that the Z51 is faster than the Camaro though. We'll have to wait and see.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Racer20

By the way, The Z28 is BARELY a street car. It's probably one of the most track-oriented cars on the market today, especially at that level. The tires alone are worth a couple seconds a lap on a NORMAL race track in the US, let alone the 'ring.

I read somewhere that the new Z28 has 305s on the front!

[rallybull]

Would live to know the track times delta between the M3 and the M4.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Brosef

the Ring time disappoints me, even though it should be an irrelevant yard stick. but it's still a yard stick, and I would have expected this car (esp. with CCB's) to crack into the upper 7:4X range.

Like any other test there is no one single Nurburgring lap time. The closest data set we have for a set of consistent times is from Sport Auto magazine (Germany). Get a real hot shoe driver, full factory support, data logging and lots of time and one could easily take 5-15 seconds off of Horst's time from Sport Auto. My best guess is that > 10 seconds faster also strongly implies not > 20 seconds faster and similarly weakly implies not > 15 seconds faster. Thus for the Sport Auto time A 7:5X with X being close to 0 sounds like the best guess. Someone will certainly achieve a 7:4X as well.

A simple regression analysis of Sport Auto times vs. power to weight (assuming 455 hp for the M4) suggests that the new car will be only 7 seconds faster than E92. Such a model has been discussed and pretty extensively validated prior here on this forum. Of course this model does not/can not account for things like improved tires, improved differential or advantages of a dual clutch transmission. Taking those into account obviously substantiates and is consistent with > 10 seconds.

The real benchmark to me (although I'm not naive enough to believe the car will be all that close) is the 7:44 Sport Auto time for the 911 Carrera S (991).

Last but not least CCBs have no specific lap time advantage other than their weight/inertia reduction.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Beck

So anyone driving on a track or aggressively anywhere else can have a mode where they themselves can heel-toe rev match instead of having it done automatically.

I'm glad you can disable it. It'd be terrible if it was always on and couldn't be turned off.

One minor point worth mentioning is that rev matching is mechanically better and gentler on a transmission especially the syncros.

[swamp2]

Some misinformation here for sure...

Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007

The new M3/M4 will be a better car than the E92 M3. ... Just look at the F10 M5, it improves on everything from its predecessor.

Well it is faster but it absolutely has not captured the media reviews nor competitive landscape the way the E60 M5 did. It also really porked out in weight. This I completely disagree with your claim.

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

The car sounds very exciting, I think they are underestimating how quick the car is around the Ring for these reasons:
1. Torque- this car has to explode out of corners
2. Less weight with bigger brakes
3. Larger tires, and 7 years of tire tech

For the millionth time, torque at the crank is largely meaningless. Peak power is a logically and practically a better indicator of a vehicles overall straight line and track performance. Also given two cars that weight the same the car that can produce more power at any given speed (say a corner exit speed) will out accelerate the other. It has not one lick to do with torque. Now if you want to purposefully exit a corner in the wrong gear the power generation from a turbo engine will very well support that type of driving better.

Bigger brakes aren't all that meaningful either, heavier brakes are actually more fade resistant due to more thermal mass (more mass is also more thermal mass). Better brake cooling and better pads generally and certainly in the case of the E92 M3 trump brake diameter and trump piston count too...

Your last point is solid.

Originally Posted by Boss330

EXACTLY!!!

The F8x with DCT has the following max torque at the wheel numbers in 1st to 5th gear:

...

As you can see, the F8x has more torque at the wheels than the C63 in every gear from 1st to 5th, apart from in 4th.

The F8x even has more torque at the wheels in 1st gear, than the E63 with a 720Nm engine. And in 5th, the difference is just 4Nm in favour of the E63...

Add (or rather substract) the lower weight of the F8x vs C63 and E63, and you get the picture on relative performance

Again, see above.

[pkimM3r]

I just read 4 addl pages and skipped the last couple and almost fell asleep.

Its the same 4 pages as the first 4 pages.

My opinion is this: yes the f8x will tear the e9x a new one. But lap times or whatever acceleration times isnt the whole picture. Will i inevitably get the new model. Definitely when its in a few years production already and when all the kinks are sorted out (plus by then the e90 will be setup for full track duty and will feel old as a daily). But i prefer naturally aspirated and the characteristics of this powerband over turbo regardless of how fast it may be (my evo ix had damn 450awhp and 411awlbft of torque and that was with a small turbo just like this new m3/4 will be) but there will still be that "i pressed the throttle but nothing is...oh shit there it is" type of lag. (Hoping that this impulse charging actually works great though). Overall, the f8x will be a beast though no doubt.

I keep reading over and over the same data thats already been said (that was intentionally redundant) and ive also read 10/10th thrown around in some posts.

No one here is driving 10/10th unless he/she is a professional driver (which there are a few). Plus this forum has those that think an x6m is the better performing than some m sedans and those that think an x1 modded is better performance car than an m3!

[pkimM3r]

And ive asked many pages ago can someone answer my question what is the difference in the ring setup that manufacturers base their lap times on vs BTG? Is it just the last straight? There are technical debates going on here but no one can answer this simple question? I guess i can google. Too lazy.

[N & M]

I agree with the overall spirit of keeping focus on low weight and RWD, but the traction can and should be improved to seriously address what is becoming clear to be deficit vis a vis the competition.

BMW used to be the outright leader with this in the previous generation. It is time they pushed themselves harder.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

They won't......


....we don't have E30 and E36 lovers trying to hold onto nostalgia here. That's reserved for the E9X.

Hey! Im an e90 lover! :lol

SEDAN FTW

[nez]

(and there's not much out there that can claim to beat the current M3 when it comes to steering feedback and precision).

he's on drugs if he thinks there's not much out there with the feel and precision of the e9x m3.

[Pure]

I think BMW is on the right track.
But I think you should worry about doing their M cars more fast acceleration times from
0-60 mph because their competitors are more fast and if it is something important for a sports car.

example: 0-60 mph

BMW M5 4.2 seconds
Audi RS7 3.9 seconds
Mercedes E63 AMG 3.9 seconds
Porsche Panamera Turbo S 3.8 seconds

[bmwm3redblack]

We just need to wait a lil bit and we get all real data. Then we can make conclusions!!!

[X6mac]

Originally Posted by Brosef

did you really just ask that question?

also, if they're just gonna mimic their competitors, that's one less thing that makes the car stand out. I, for one, love the fact that it's RWD and wouldn't buy one if it were AWD.

[matbl]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The G30 520d weights around the same as an F30 320d.

That's the first reference I've seen to the next 5-series as G30. Next 7 is G10, so what is G20?

BTW, nice to see it lose some weight.

[pilot_bro2003]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

I bet that xdrive will be an option on the next generation M5/6 and probably M3/4 too, like it is on the new generation AMG models.

Right now these executives can't say anything positive about AWD for these cars because BMW M don't currently offer it and they don't want to lose sales to competitors. Lots of AMG clients are opting for AWD, BMW M will follow with optional xdrive. It won't be the first time that BMW M offer something that they said they wouldn't.

It would be nice if BMW either used or developed their own AWD system similar to the one utilized in the Ferrari FF in the interest of weight savings vice the current X-Drive system. I'd like to see them use some sort of electrical motors or something as well as a potential solution. If they're going to succumb to the demand for AWD and compete they (BMW) should lead not follow and bring something different to the table.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by swamp2

The real benchmark to me (although I'm not naive enough to believe the car will be all that close) is the 7:44 Sport Auto time for the 911 Carrera S (991).

swamp, that is exactly on-point.

There is absolutely no way that the M3/M4 are going to be within 10 seconds of a 991 Carrera S around the Ring. Not. Happening.

BMW is being delusional if they are trying to compete against that car. I would be shocked if it could be within 10 seconds of a base Carrera, much less the S model.

7:44 is a fast lap time. Of course, this is all car metrics as there probably isn't a single person on this entire forum that could get a sub 8:30 time in this car.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by mister2d

Well sure if you are open to Merc or Cadillac.

Otherwise, if you want a BMW there won't be any buyer's remorse going on.

Well, I don't really have much regard for people who doggedly stick to a single brand. If people want to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the competition they are the only ones who are making the mistake.

The Merc is just as attractive if not more than the F80 and the Caddy is going to be undoubtedly cheaper than either. Even the new Mustang can be cross-shopped, although that is below my threshold in terms of luxury.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by basscadet

swamp, that is exactly on-point.

There is absolutely no way that the M3/M4 are going to be within 10 seconds of a 991 Carrera S around the Ring. Not. Happening.

BMW is being delusional if they are trying to compete against that car. I would be shocked if it could be within 10 seconds of a base Carrera, much less the S model.

7:44 is a fast lap time. Of course, this is all car metrics as there probably isn't a single person on this entire forum that could get a sub 8:30 time in this car.

A E46 M3 CSL did that lap in 7:52(edit 7:50 lol) about 10 years ago so please explain why not.

You won't believe a 7:54? I will already.

A 991 CS is a good and fast sportscar, but so is the next gen M3/4, and its torque at the wheels will work on such a track like the Nordschleife including the Döttinger Höhe straight. The 991 S isn't a GT3/Turbo or something. It's not the holy grail fgs. Remember that.

Hate to say it, but you assume too much(last paragraph as well)


Cheers
Robin







I

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Levi_CSL

wow just wow, so after 11 years since the M3 CSL was released and did the Nürburgring lap time in 7:50, we had finally gotten to the point where the new generation M cars gets close to the CSL time. Now thats something........NOT

The key factor were the semislicktyres at that given moment(dry track), but I agree

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Levi_CSL

it just shows how special is the CSL. im glad i own a silver one

Congrats I didn't know that. AdvevO(my friend) had one and another acquintance overhere has one. Both that greyish blue colour.

Greatest post war BMW if you ask me!

But my point still stands

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Levi_CSL

hi robin do u have facebook?

Never heard of that. What's Facebook?

Cheers
Robin (my middle name is Gerhard, German ancestors you know) look it up(last name I keep private atm )

You can pm me.

And welcome btw!

Viel Vergnügen!