04-23-2014, 10:16 AM | #133 | ||||
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For BMW and the M-GmbH the M3 and M4 is clearly "their sportiest Sportscar" ... you are right that it is getting to fat over the generations, but its all the time defined from BMW as sportscar! Quote:
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04-23-2014, 10:18 AM | #134 | |
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2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
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04-23-2014, 10:23 AM | #135 | |
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Who says the new m3 wont be tractable except you? Your opinion is based on absolutely zero data to support your claims. The e9x m3, which I have tracked, is certainly not on the razors edge of traction out there. In fact, the worst part about it is the lack of torque coming out of corners and lack of straight line power. The stability and chassis are the best parts about it, and why its so easy and quick to drive. What argument from BMW? Any company will always justify whatever they are doing at the time, that's just good business. The s55 powered m3 is claimed by BMW themselves to be half a second faster to 60, much faster to 1000m and has way more in gear acceleration. Its also 10+ seconds faster on the ring. Considering average power, the s55 smokes the s65, and on the track, that's going to be an advantage whether you want it to be or not. We will find out soon enough. The 997tt motor has no lag problems, or anything like that. Any fast car requires skill to drive, the faster the car, the more skill and balls required.
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04-23-2014, 10:24 AM | #136 | |
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They basically have the same setup, except the gt3 is a little lighter.
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04-23-2014, 10:26 AM | #137 | |
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and the s55 is slightly lighter, I think 11 lbs. basically negligible.
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04-23-2014, 10:27 AM | #138 |
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I'll be damned if Porsche is charging 100K for just a different engine. Another reason for me to hate them.
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04-23-2014, 10:30 AM | #139 | |
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I don´t compare the GT3(GT3 RS) with an M3/M4 but with the other cars you listed. I don´t think more displacement is the only and the best way... I think the other improvement of the GTS engine (without the increased displacement!) woud bring an improved S65 in the 430 to 440hp / 430 to 450Nm range, which would be enough to be an costlier but performance wise good alternative to the S55 ... and this without changing the typical M engine characteristic. |
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04-23-2014, 10:32 AM | #140 | ||
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04-23-2014, 10:32 AM | #141 | |
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but yea, its true. then again, the engine does make like 600hp in a 3200 lb car its a monster. it has slightly more luxurious things in it than the gt3 also. one thing it does have is standard carbon backed racing seats etc which are expensive options in the gt3. so like for like, maybe 50-60k difference.
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04-23-2014, 10:33 AM | #142 |
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04-23-2014, 10:34 AM | #143 | |
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04-23-2014, 10:36 AM | #144 | |
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04-23-2014, 11:10 AM | #145 | |
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Amazing engineering here
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04-23-2014, 11:18 AM | #146 | |
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You cannot compare these two cars. Whatever the GT2 loses in tractability and ease of driving due to the turbocharged engine, it more than makes up for it with the additional power. |
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04-23-2014, 11:27 AM | #147 | |
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he is grasping to anything that will make the s65 look better than the s55
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04-23-2014, 12:04 PM | #150 |
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Not sure the answer, but the photo in the OP seems to show something that looks nice and metallic... god I hope it is.
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04-23-2014, 01:28 PM | #152 |
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A couple of points to add/clarify:
Yes average power is important and it must be considered when trying to understand a vehicles performance. That being said, peak power is still a darn good predictor of overall performance. Also, along those lines, the benefits of more power at rpms which are not seen during WOT contests are irrelevant to the level of performance (basically below 5k rpm in the S55). Should be obvious but it seems to continue to be overlooked. Also along that line of reasoning keep in mind this tradeoff. Those who prefer engines with an ability to produce a lot of power at low rpm (often sacrificing an ability to do so at high rpm - much like S55 vs. s65) love to talk about the benefit of not having to venture in to "aggressive" driving at high rpm. Well, yes and no. The dyno plots intrinsically assume a WOT condition with boost being pretty well maximized. Thus you can't fully enjoy "lazy driving" at part throttle AND simultaneously enjoy this large gap shown between the power curves.
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04-23-2014, 02:41 PM | #153 | |
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I'd just like to add that when in Sport and Sport+ mode the wastegates are closed during part throttle driving, keeping the turbos spinning (pre tensioned in BMW speak). This means that the engine should feel much more alert and closer to a WOT scenario than it does in Normal mode. I suspect that the S55 will feel much stronger than the S65 even during "non WOT but partial throttle", especially when in Sport and Sport+ mode. According to BMW the S55 makes 270Nm unboosted (that would be at fairly low load conditions then). The S65 makes a maximum of 400Nm during WOT conditions. The S55 and S65 might not feel all that different during part throttle condition when just running "on the motor" (unboosted). Where the S65 needed to be tuned (cams, intake runner length etc) for high end power (ususally at the cost of low down torque), the S55 should be able to have been tuned for low end power and torque "on the motor", as boosting provides the power the S65 needed RPM to make. All the above just my "thinking out loud" thoughts here |
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04-23-2014, 04:42 PM | #154 | |
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Thx! also a tuned FBO M3 will produce about 7.5%-8.0% more bhp in the upper rev ranges vs stock. Stock E90/2 CRT and GTS, stock new M3/M4, and FBO E9x M3 are likely to have fairly close performance on a track (but in that order by a few secs between each).
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