Michelin Pilot Sport 4S

[gatorfast]

lol

[allinon72]

I'd like to throw in the towel, and I'm not even involved. Exhausting.

[Wills2]

Well at least people acknowledge that OEM tyres are different to the generic versions these days, I remember back in the day most forums wouldn't accept it.

For me the OEM tyres are far better balanced on the car in terms of handling, turn in etc than the generic PS4S.

There is a lot of fanboyism around that tyre on the forums you can tell it's not in tune with the chassis and DSC.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Look deeper in the EU regulation. That is likely where the explanation lies. For instance, it seems that different testing standards are used when tires are rated as part of a vehicle type certification and general labelling. Maybe other members that are well versed in EU regulation can chime in ( Boss330 ). What I am trying to say is that we cannot always take everything at face value when it goes against common sense.

Although tires and tire labelling isn't my field of expertise I can try to give a short input on the EU/ECE framework in place here.

In short EU Regulation 1222/2009 as amended by EU regulations 228/2011 and 1235/2011 is the same as UNECE Reg 117.02 when it comes to testing parametres for wet brake testing.

Both the EU and UNECE legislations covers tires as fitted to new vehicles as well as tires offered to "end users" for the aftermarket (replacement tires).

Testing methods are the same and the tire labelling parametres are also the same (i.e. it takes the same braking performance to achieve the same rating regardless of whether you reference the UNECE or EU regulations). So AFAIK there is no difference in the regulations that explains why the tires have different wet braking performance scores. IMO it must be down to slight differences in the tires themselves, since testing standards are the same regardless of whether it's factory fitted or aftermarket.

My understanding has always been that the OEM specific versions of a tire differs slightly in specifications and performance compared to a generic version of the same tire model. AFAIK companies like BMW M spend a lot of time testing tires in close cooperation with the tire suppliers and specify slight changes to compound etc to achieve what BMW M is looking for for that specific model.

Michelin's priorities for their generic model might differ from what BMW M is looking for, hence why a OEM/star/* tire might have slightly different wet braking performance than the generic. The difference between the two might be indistuinguishable for the "layman" as the generic tire might be in the lower end of A and the OEM tire might be in the upper end of B.

I have done many deceleration tests with professional decelerometer equipment from MAHA over a 15 year period. I must admit that I am not able to tell the difference between braking with a deceleration of, for instance, 8,8m/s*s or 8,5m/s*s, but that it's no problem to tell the difference between a 5m/s*s deceleration and a 9m/s*s deceleration. The difference in wet braking test results for the OEM and generic tire may be just tenths apart, but still enough to change the rating from A to B. So IMHO it would be almost impossible to tell the difference in wet braking performance between to closely matched tires by a "seat of the pants" type evaluation.

Possibly if the tests are done back to back at the same time, jumping between two cars with the respective tire setup you MIGHT be able to notice the difference in wet braking performance. Most likely you would need professional measuring equipment to tell the difference between wet braking performance (deceleration) for the OEM and generic version. However the two tires might have noticeable differences in steering feel, turn in and cornering performance or simply just in mileage (interestingly the front tire has a higher noise emission as well, indicating a slightly harder compound, carcass or thread pattern, which all could affect wet braking performance).

Engineers from Michelin and BMW M GmbH worked together to develop the tire to optimize the vehicle both on the street and the track. This required nine joint test sessions at five tracks and more than 3,800 prototype tires before arriving at the perfect combination.

*The star is a special marking displayed on Michelin tires to indicate that they were specifically designed for BMW vehicles.

https://michelinmedia.com/michelin-c...ration-bmw-m3/

This car was designed to run on the track as well as open road, for which it is approved, so Michelin engineers have developed an ultra high performance tire. It is as well suited for use on roads as driving on circuits around the world and safely. To this end, the MICHELIN Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires of the BMW M4 GTS use a bi-compound asymmetrical tread, as well as an asymmetrical carcass. This provides an optimal balance between maneuverability, handling and tire life.

During the development phases, Michelin produced more than 1,000 prototypes and 400 special series tires, tested by Michelin and BMW drivers.

To achieve all the performance characteristics demanded by BMW M, Michelin's engineers focused on the interaction between the components, the architecture and the tread profile, and the tires of each axle. This ensures excellent road performance, in terms of driving precision, control, responsiveness to the demands on the car's steering, balance and comfort. This set of properties also makes it possible to obtain very good chronos and constant performances on circuit. Constancy and homogeneity lead to limit the heating of the tire and therefore its wear.

In addition to the Bi-Compound technology, MICHELIN Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires incorporate the Variable Contact Patch 3.0 technology developed in motor racing. This optimizes the pressure of the contact area of ​​the tire, so that the amount of rubber in contact with the ground remains constant on road as on circuit, in straight line as in curve. Finally, MICHELIN Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires use Premium Touch technology applied on its sidewalls. In short, MICHELIN tires not only deliver very high levels of performance, they also benefit from state-of-the-art aesthetics - which is an important consideration when it comes to equipping a car as elegant as the new BMW M4 GTS.

https://www.michelin.com/fre/presse/...-la-BMW-M4-GTS


Not sure this clarifies anything at all...

[SMGCFP]

I like the 4S's. They grip well.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You might be putting too much emphasis on this rating. Note that it only relates to wet braking performance, which is far from representing overall wet performance.

Doing a quick spot check on the PS4S, it seems like the vast majority of OEM spec tires have an inferior B rating for the wet (all except one) while the vast majority of generic ones (all except 2) have the better A rating for the wet. That seems odd to me. Why would all OEM spec a worse wet tire ?

https://www.michelin.fr/pneus/michel...t-sport-4-s#sl

The answer likely lies in how the ratings are given/obtained.

Do yourself a favour, put a generic 275/35R19 side by side with a star spec 275/35R19 PSS and explain to me how the generic one will be better in the wet.

As you pointed out yourselves, the rating ONLY relates to a specified wet braking test. It does NOT mean that the tire is better in other wet conditions (like aquaplaning, cornering speed, steering response etc).

It's important not to take the tire rating for wet braking performance out of context. It ONLY relates to the tires performance under that specific testing condition. And as several tire tests reveal, wet braking performance doesn't always correlate to how the tire perform under other test areas in the wet.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

As you pointed out yourselves, the rating ONLY relates to a specified wet braking test. It does NOT mean that the tire is better in other wet conditions (like aquaplaning, cornering speed, steering response etc).

It's important not to take the tire rating for wet braking performance out of context. It ONLY relates to the tires performance under that specific testing condition. And as several tire tests reveal, wet braking performance doesn't always correlate to how the tire perform under other test areas in the wet.

Thanks for chiming in .

I am curious though as to why practically every OE spec PSS or PS4S has a lower (B) wet braking rating when almost all the generic PSS and PS4S have the higher (A) rating. That seems like a strange coincidence to me. Could it be related to the vehicle used for the testing? Any thoughts?

[f80NJ17]

This Question was probably answered already. But i have stock MPSS on 18'rims. What set can I run so I can put 4S's on these rims. Everyone i called said they dont make 4s that can fit.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by f80NJ17

This Question was probably answered already. But i have stock MPSS on 18'rims. What set can I run so I can put 4S's on these rims. Everyone i called said they dont make 4s that can fit.

That is correct, the 4S is not made in the 18" M3/4 sizes.

On another note, I would highly recommend the Continental extreme contact sport for the 18's over the MPSS. Comparable performance, less expensive, and better tread wear.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Having recently fitted 20" MPS4S to the rear of my M4CP, I thought I'd chip in my 10 pence worth.
Firstly I left the MPSSs on the front, not only because they have a lot of tread but mostly because I am perfectly happy with the way they perform. I'll stick with MPSS for the fronts when these are worn out.
The MPS4S don't seem that massively different to the MPSSs they replaced except in traction, which as already noted is significantly improved....finally able now to hook up the car in second....makes the tyres worth it for this alone.
Compared to the MPSS, the MPS4S feels like the tread blocks are moving around very slightly on turn in (or tyrewall flex?)...something I don't recall feeling when the rear MPSSs were new.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Thanks for chiming in .

I am curious though as to why practically every OE spec PSS or PS4S has a lower (B) wet braking rating when almost all the generic PSS and PS4S have the higher (A) rating. That seems like a strange coincidence to me. Could it be related to the vehicle used for the testing? Any thoughts?

That is a possibility.

Regulation (EU) 228/2011 which amends 1222/2009 and specifically covers the wet braking test criterias stipulates that the test can either be taken by a passenger vehicle OR a trailer towed by a vehicle OR a test vehicle.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...1R0228&from=EN

If different test vehicles are used this could affect the results. Also the procedures relating to the reference tire could possibly influence test results if the size of the candidate tire and the reference tire is significantly different.

4.1.7 Wet grip performance comparison between a candidate tyre and a reference tyre using a control tyre

4.1.7.1 G e n e r a l
Where the candidate tyre size is significantly different from that of the reference tyre, a direct comparison on the same instrumented passenger car may not be possible. This testing method uses an intermediate tyre, hereinafter called the control tyre as defined in point 5 of section 2.

However, it seems strange that Michelin would use different testing facilities (tests are to be done by a independent technical service) for their different tires so I suspect that most likely the exact same test vehicle is used for all their PSS/PS4S versions.

There might be something in the possible use of a "intermediate tire" for the OEM spec tire test as they only can be had in a limited number of sizes and thereby not be directly comparable to the reference tire. The generic tires are most likely available in a size that is close to, or similar to, the reference tire and thereby a direct comparison (and calculation of grip factor) can be done.

The above is the closest I can get to a possible explanation buried in the legislation and not in the performance of the tire itself...

[///Mangler]

Length vs Girth?

T

[mose121]

I've driven on both models in dry and wet conditions at the track in my stock 2016 f80 zcp. The PS4S is hands down the better tire in both dry and wet conditions.

[mose121]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Having recently fitted 20" MPS4S to the rear of my M4CP, I thought I'd chip in my 10 pence worth.
Firstly I left the MPSSs on the front, not only because they have a lot of tread but mostly because I am perfectly happy with the way they perform. I'll stick with MPSS for the fronts when these are worn out.
The MPS4S don't seem that massively different to the MPSSs they replaced except in traction, which as already noted is significantly improved....finally able now to hook up the car in second....makes the tyres worth it for this alone.
Compared to the MPSS, the MPS4S feels like the tread blocks are moving around very slightly on turn in (or tyrewall flex?)...something I don't recall feeling when the rear MPSSs were new.

Why stick with the inferior PSS on the fronts? They're more expensive than the PS4S, they have a half inch less width than a PS4S so they don't look wimpy and aren't stretched to the point of compromising shoulder wear, they perform better in every area, etc. Sticking with the PSS defies logic, especially if that's what's on the rear.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by mose121

Why stick with the inferior PSS on the fronts? They're more expensive than the PS4S, they have a half inch less width than a PS4S so they don't look wimpy and aren't stretched to the point of compromising shoulder wear, they perform better in every area, etc. Sticking with the PSS defies logic, especially if that's what's on the rear.

If you read further back in the thread, the star PSS seem to have better turn-in than generic 4S.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by allinon72

If you read further back in the thread, the star PSS seem to have better turn-in than generic 4S.

Hopefully Mich will bring out a "*" version of the PS4S for the front that gets better reviews, in which case I'd likely give them a go.
But for the moment I'm happy with the balance of my M4CP with the MPSS/MS4S front/rear combo in stock sizes.

[cca101]

Turn in is a big deal. I do a lot of canyon driving and love the bite from the front and instant response. If that was compromised by the new PS4S, it's making me doubt the decision of going with the PS4S vs star spec PSS. Someone earlier on this thread actually said the front PS4S ruined the experience for him. This was on the ZCP and oem size 265/30/20

Having 1/2in more tread width is useless to me if the front feels vague and doesn't follow the steering wheel input instantly.

And having more grip from the stop light in town is great and all but we're still all going to lose against 99% of Teslas anyways. I guess the reduced road noise is the most attractive feature to me on the PS4S, but I will compromise that as well if the front really feels that shitty.


Anyone with more experience with the front end feel/turn in?

[OF Hero]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Hopefully Mich will bring out a "*" version of the PS4S for the front that gets better reviews, in which case I'd likely give them a go.
But for the moment I'm happy with the balance of my M4CP with the MPSS/MS4S front/rear combo in stock sizes.

Are the sidewall differences between front/rear tires jarring to look at? Pics?

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by OF Hero

Are the sidewall differences between front/rear tires jarring to look at? Pics?

I think they look OK....I have my 666s painted gloss black so maybe that tends to disguise the differences in tyre sidewalls.

[cca101]

Originally Posted by mose121

I've driven on both models in dry and wet conditions at the track in my stock 2016 f80 zcp. The PS4S is hands down the better tire in both dry and wet conditions.

It appears the weak turn in is attributed to the 19" tires, not the ZCP, I apologize. Haven't driven both on track, how would you rate the turn in feel compared to the stock star tire? Did you use OEM sizes for the PS4S?

[mose121]

Originally Posted by cca101

It appears the weak turn in is attributed to the 19" tires, not the ZCP, I apologize. Haven't driven both on track, how would you rate the turn in feel compared to the stock star tire? Did you use OEM sizes for the PS4S?

Yes, stock sizes. The PS4S is a half inch wider than a star spec PSS. Virtually no stretch on the sidewall now which gives the tire more support on the outer edge under load. It also preserves the tire better, as the stretched PSS rolls over on the sidewall when under heavy load and chews up the outer edge. I've literally worn the words off of the sidewall on the PSS. Making the star spec PSS a half inch narrower than a non star spec/PS4S was a stupid idea. Can't see how that was justified by BMW. I wouldn't say the PS4S turn in feel is significantly better, but it's better and it will take more abuse. On the 19's it could be a difference in the tire, or it could just be the fact that people are going from a worn PSS with almost no tread squirm to a brand new PS4S that like any new tire is going to have some tread squirm. They aren't really comparing apples to apples in those instances.

[PayamFSU]

I posted this in a separate thread but worth it for some of the discussion regarding width