M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Robert

I knew Tesla would not sustain on the track. Even though I always want to do track days it just is not realistic I would ever track a 60-70k car regularly, like once a month. Ultimately the decision came down to I absolutely hate the gas line at Costco and having an EV allows me to avoid that madness.

Congrats on the new car.

Engineers have come out and said the sustained lap time are 2% less than the peak lap time, so it’s fine to track, but it’s still a 4000lb sedan, so definitely not ideal

Just rent a race car when you do want to track and do arrive and drive.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Congrats on the new car.

Engineers have come out and said the sustained lap time are 2% less than the peak lap time, so it’s fine to track, but it’s still a 4000lb sedan, so definitely not ideal

Just rent a race car when you do want to track and do arrive and drive.

Can you post some links to these services?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Can you post some links to these services?

I only know ones based in CA.

PM me if you have questions since that will take us way off topic

It’s about $800-$1000 per day for a spec Miata will full support at the track, for example

[Robert]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Congrats on the new car.

Engineers have come out and said the sustained lap time are 2% less than the peak lap time, so it’s fine to track, but it’s still a 4000lb sedan, so definitely not ideal

Just rent a race car when you do want to track and do arrive and drive.

I didnt know it existed. I was going to turo an ICE sports car when I want to drive one around town and get an used miata for track.

[2011zx10R]

Originally Posted by IS350

Looks are subjective, as for the wait on charging, if you plug it in at night, it's inconsequential. Supercharging is very quick if planning on more than 310 miles/day.

So all I need to do is plug it in at nigh and hope I don't need to be anywhere while it's charging...

Cool; because my plans never change at the last second and I'm never in a rush...

I'm not ready for moon car; I have no patience and my subjective opinion is the car is not good looking at all.

Looks like a rental.


Tesla is a great car just not for me... They are doing great without my money so they are good.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by 2011zx10R

So all I need to do is plug it in at nigh and hope I don't need to be anywhere while it's charging...

Cool; because my plans never change at the last second and I'm never in a rush...

I'm not ready for moon car; I have no patience and my subjective opinion is the car is not good looking at all.

Looks like a rental.


Tesla is a great car just not for me... They are doing great without my money so they are good.

You don't need to charge to a full charge every day unless you are driving 310 miles every day. It takes like 4-6 hours to charge at home for a full charge anyway....? Even less for your day 40 mile commute. Get home plug in. Go get dinner and unplug to get there. Come back and plug. Have an emergency and unplug. Get home at 3am plug. It really isn't that hard....? How much range do you think you'll actually be using or time you expect not to be home on average every night?

I get that it's not the car for you for other reasons, but the emergency situation or change of plans excuse is just silly unless you use 90% of your range every day, which would make you less than .005% of the entire commuting population, and not the viable market for an EV.

[IS350]

Originally Posted by Robert

I thought about a M2/M3 and wanted to visit BMW showroom before buying a Tesla but Tesla rep was able to find me a 2018 Model 3 perf with 14 miles on it for $55k before tax and fee after some negotiations. The car I cross shopped was a 981 Cayman which was ruled out with arrival of my son

I knew Tesla would not sustain on the track. Even though I always want to do track days it just is not realistic I would ever track a 60-70k car regularly, like once a month. Ultimately the decision came down to I absolutely hate the gas line at Costco and having an EV allows me to avoid that madness.

Congrats, how'd you get such a great price? Car was considered used? Will you get the $3750 rebate?

[IS350]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

You don't need to charge to a full charge every day unless you are driving 310 miles every day. It takes like 4-6 hours to charge at home for a full charge anyway....? Even less for your day 40 mile commute. Get home plug in. Go get dinner and unplug to get there. Come back and plug. Have an emergency and unplug. Get home at 3am plug. It really isn't that hard....? How much range do you think you'll actually be using or time you expect not to be home on average every night?

I get that it's not the car for you for other reasons, but the emergency situation or change of plans excuse is just silly unless you use 90% of your range every day, which would make you less than .005% of the entire commuting population, and not the viable market for an EV.

Well said.

[KoenG]

Tested a Model 3 Performance today, and it was even better than I expected, and I expected a lot!!

1. I expected it to be a very busy ride: not, it was calm and had poise and composure of a luxury sedan.
2. I expected it to have mediocre vehicle dynamics: not, it was razor sharp agility and reacts sublime on all kind of mass transfers.
3. I expected missile accelerations, and it did just that. No drama though, which makes it even more impressive.
4. I expected poor haptical quality in the cabin: not top, but far from bad.

Until now the F90 M5 was the best car I have ever driven, this one comes close, and when you consider TCO, it reigns. Am I going mad!?

[Junni]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Tested a Model 3 Performance today, and it was even better than I expected, and I expected a lot!!

1. I expected it to be a very busy ride: not, it was calm and had poise and composure of a luxury sedan.
2. I expected it to have mediocre vehicle dynamics: not, it was razor sharp agility and reacts sublime on all kind of mass transfers.
3. I expected missile accelerations, and it did just that. No drama though, which makes it even more impressive.
4. I expected poor haptical quality in the cabin: not top, but far from bad.

Until now the F90 M5 was the best car I have ever driven, this one comes close, and when you consider TCO, it reigns. Am I going mad!?

You are not mad. I had the same feeling after a couple of minutes in the Model 3 Performance!

[shay2nak]

Looks like Tesla is finally leasing all models of the M3. It’s on the website.

[IS350]

Originally Posted by shay2nak

Looks like Tesla is finally leasing all models of the M3. It's on the website.

Yup, configuration gives lease options. Think they started last week. Looks like they ask for around $3k down. Not sure where they're estimating the residual or MF.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by IS350

Thanks for sharing.
For daily driving, if you could choose 1, which would it be and why?

For daily - TM3P, all the way.

It's just more of a fun car to drive!

It hurts me to type this out loud (having owned BMW's and ///M's for decades), but TM3P is an all around more engaging car vs. F30, G20, or F80.
TM3P accelerates with super-car pull (extra weight is not noticeable at all), brakes and changes lanes with equal aplomb, and on-board tech is years ahead of anything BMW can put together.
Driving ergonomics are better, and I feel like I get into a 90's car when I get back into ///M3 after driving TM3.
F80 does have better contoured and more supportive seats.

I haven't taken TM3P to autoX/DE yet (that will come later this year), so that's one comparison category for which I have not formed a first-hand opinion yet. People do track TM3's, though. I just need to identify pro's and con's vs. a similarly prepped F80.

I will re-evaluate once G80 comes out.

a

P.S.: BMW ownership also comes with access to BMW CCA - a great auto-enthusiast community. If you are a not a CCA member, you are missing on half the fun of BMW ownership.
P.P.S.: Tesla also has an owner fan base, though they seam to, largely, consist of the opposite of car-guys.

[JMon]

"P.P.S.: Tesla also has an owner fan base, though they seam to, largely, consist of the opposite of car-guys."

Oh there are Tesla fans but in a much different orientation than most car folks. Maybe even more passionate about their cars than any other brand. I'd probably say the most passionate fans. ( even above VW Bug owners).

The Tesla cars are very special and quirky at the same time and the owners know it. Most don't even care that on the street and in the real world almost nothing can touch them performance wise. They are fans with a focus on things other than performance.

Although there is a small performance fan base and they are car guys and they know what they've got. Out there looking to humiliate anyone cocky enough to take them on.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by IS350

Congrats, how'd you get such a great price? Car was considered used? Will you get the $3750 rebate?

I am eligible for the $3750 tax credit, in theory, keeping my fingers crossed! I called Tesla sales and told him I am interested in a demo car, e.g. showroom or test drive vehicles.

Off the bat he had a '19 AWD with couple thousands miles on it for $3-4k off. I told him to keep looking. Few days later I got a call for a '18 performance with 12 miles on it.

Car turned out not to be a demo/showroom model at all. Tesla had unsold inventory which the pricing algorithm decided it's time to unload. Meanwhile, a couple days after I reserved the vehicle, 2500 down, Tesla decided to bundle in auto pilot as part of the base price. On base model total price is reduced by 1k but Tesla didn't call out on performance it is no additional cost. At the same time price on upgraded interior and non-standard paint also dropped.

These were options already on my '18, so I felt it was within reason to bargain. After few phone calls and a visit to showroom later I got a hold of a manager and told her I'd rather cancel and reorder a 2019 if company doesn't honor the same pricing on my '18. You know how it turned out at the end.


My original discount was 7.3k off sticker. I've heard 10k discount on performance model for '18 before. Happy hunting!

I want to call out two things about Tesla. One is Tesla's customer service is horrible compare to other luxury brands. It still feel like an established startup, rough around the edges. You would submit a service request and be left in vacuum for few days until someone calls you. Lastly, non-essential software is buggy, e.g. my center console rebooted while driving. Car still works but you have no control of radio, hvac, and other functionalities for a minute. Other than that the car is a fantastic daily. You can drive leisurely or embrass a few 911s on the road if that's what the heart calls for. I am not way delusional it loses steam pass 100mph or is as durable as a Porsche on the track.

[blinkme323]

Are there any rumors of Tesla adding a Speedo / HUD any time in the future? I could live with all of the other interior eccentricities, but lack of anything like that in the drivers sightline is inexcusable IMO.

The other issue that I found on the M3P that I tested (and others on the lot) was hair, dirt and debris not on the paint, but literally embedded IN the paint. They really need to refine / change their painting process.

Definitely looking forward to the refresh in a few years though.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by JMon

"P.P.S.: Tesla also has an owner fan base, though they seam to, largely, consist of the opposite of car-guys."

Although there is a small performance fan base and they are car guys and they know what they've got. Out there looking to humiliate anyone cocky enough to take them on.

Anyone getting an EV right now is an enthusiast in their own way. You have to be really enthusiastic about something in the car in order to forgo the ability to refuel anywhere you go

“Humiliate” is such a negative word. Is that how you feel when another car gets in front of you at a light?

Btw guys, one thing that hasn’t been discussed is repair. I got a rock chip on my windshield and the safelite guy was a bit stressed. Apparently if the glass cracks is a huge production. Long wait for the glass, and then need for cameras to be recalibrated by Tesla, so it’s a lot of downtime and coordination

Also, I second the rough edges around the ownership experience. When I got my service loaner, I had to be driven to an enterprise location, and then gave an ID number to Enterprise to get a model S loaner (for free). It’s not like Bmw where there’s a row of cars parked ready to go, and a nice coffee machine while you wait.

A few years from now when the Porsche Ev is out, if the semi autonomous features are on par with Tesla, it’s going to start to be a tough sell to get a Tesla, IMHO.

And most here probably wouldn’t but I would be down for an AWD i3M sedan with 900ftlb of torque, 500hp and 3500lb weight and 100kw battery

[IS350]

Originally Posted by Robert

I am eligible for the $3750 tax credit, in theory, keeping my fingers crossed! I called Tesla sales and told him I am interested in a demo car, e.g. showroom or test drive vehicles.

Off the bat he had a '19 AWD with couple thousands miles on it for $3-4k off. I told him to keep looking. Few days later I got a call for a '18 performance with 12 miles on it.

Car turned out not to be a demo/showroom model at all. Tesla had unsold inventory which the pricing algorithm decided it's time to unload. Meanwhile, a couple days after I reserved the vehicle, 2500 down, Tesla decided to bundle in auto pilot as part of the base price. On base model total price is reduced by 1k but Tesla didn't call out on performance it is no additional cost. At the same time price on upgraded interior and non-standard paint also dropped.

These were options already on my '18, so I felt it was within reason to bargain. After few phone calls and a visit to showroom later I got a hold of a manager and told her I'd rather cancel and reorder a 2019 if company doesn't honor the same pricing on my '18. You know how it turned out at the end.


My original discount was 7.3k off sticker. I've heard 10k discount on performance model for '18 before. Happy hunting!

I want to call out two things about Tesla. One is Tesla's customer service is horrible compare to other luxury brands. It still feel like an established startup, rough around the edges. You would submit a service request and be left in vacuum for few days until someone calls you. Lastly, non-essential software is buggy, e.g. my center console rebooted while driving. Car still works but you have no control of radio, hvac, and other functionalities for a minute. Other than that the car is a fantastic daily. You can drive leisurely or embrass a few 911s on the road if that's what the heart calls for. I am not way delusional it loses steam pass 100mph or is as durable as a Porsche on the track.

Congrats on the deal!

Enjoyed everyone's comments. I agree this is my favorite daily driver, despite the many inspiring M cars and i8 leases I've had.

I've had good customer service, for the most part. For any of you Tesla owners, ever notice slight imprints from the rear trunk lid on your lower bumper? I adjusted the rubber screws, hope that helps.

[dusadus]

Originally Posted by afadeev

For daily - TM3P, all the way.

It's just more of a fun car to drive!

It hurts me to type this out loud (having owned BMW's and ///M's for decades), but TM3P is an all around more engaging car vs. F30, G20, or F80.
TM3P accelerates with super-car pull (extra weight is not noticeable at all), brakes and changes lanes with equal aplomb, and on-board tech is years ahead of anything BMW can put together.
Driving ergonomics are better, and I feel like I get into a 90's car when I get back into ///M3 after driving TM3.
F80 does have better contoured and more supportive seats.

I haven't taken TM3P to autoX/DE yet (that will come later this year), so that's one comparison category for which I have not formed a first-hand opinion yet. People do track TM3's, though. I just need to identify pro's and con's vs. a similarly prepped F80.

I will re-evaluate once G80 comes out.

a

P.S.: BMW ownership also comes with access to BMW CCA - a great auto-enthusiast community. If you are a not a CCA member, you are missing on half the fun of BMW ownership.
P.P.S.: Tesla also has an owner fan base, though they seam to, largely, consist of the opposite of car-guys.

I just ordered a Model 3 Performance myself. My feeling is that as BMW and others are emphasizing technology/fuel economy/daily driveability more than being an engaging, race car for the street, they've prepared/trained their owners to more willingly accept a new entrant like Tesla that does all these things light years better.

I wish my F80 gave me the same feels as when I first drove an E46, but it does not. I'm still keeping it for now as I want to have a manual transmission vehicle, but in the back of my mind I'm preparing to sell the F80 after I drove the Model 3 more extensively.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dusadus

I wish my F80 gave me the same feels as when I first drove an E46, but it does not. I'm still keeping it for now as I want to have a manual transmission vehicle, but in the back of my mind I'm preparing to sell the F80 after I drove the Model 3 more extensively.

Get a manual transmission, 2 seats sports car of your choice as your toy.

2 “sports sedan” doesn’t make much sense, and honestly, even a sports sedan + non GT Porsche combo can be questionable (speaking from experience)

Edit: check out the latest full self driving demo vid complete with stop light and sign recognition

[dusadus]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Get a manual transmission, 2 seats sports car of your choice as your toy.

2 “sports sedan” doesn’t make much sense, and honestly, even a sports sedan + non GT Porsche combo can be questionable (speaking from experience)

Edit: check out the latest full self driving demo vid complete with stop light and sign recognition

I appreciate the suggestion as I'm wrestling with this question. I do suspect I'll sell the M3, but could you elaborate more on a non-GT 911 being questionable? Are you suggesting a "normal" 911 isn't a fun enough toy given it's meant to be daily driven?

I was thinking of waiting a year or 2 on a 991.2 GTS in manual. The dream is a manual GT3 (any year from 997-current) but it's a bit out of my price range right now. Pretty crazy how expensive the 997 GT3s still are.

I did see that video. I'm glad I prepaid for the full self driving. Very interesting times we live in!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dusadus

I appreciate the suggestion as I'm wrestling with this question. I do suspect I'll sell the M3, but could you elaborate more on a non-GT 911 being questionable? Are you suggesting a "normal" 911 isn't a fun enough toy given it's meant to be daily driven?

I was thinking of waiting a year or 2 on a 991.2 GTS in manual. The dream is a manual GT3 (any year from 997-current) but it's a bit out of my price range right now. Pretty crazy how expensive the 997 GT3s still are.

I did see that video. I'm glad I prepaid for the full self driving. Very interesting times we live in!

Hi, that’s just my opinion. I personally currently prefer having a great street car (model 3 P) and a competition car with license plate (eg Spec miata) as my track car.

My lightly modded 996 turbo is on trickle charger 26/30 days.

Maybe others with a lesser track additiction (and can pay for HPDE insurance and maintenance for the few days they go each year) or bigger wallet to heavily track and risk writing off a new 911 would think different