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09-25-2020, 10:09 PM | #23 |
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+1 for Wagner. I've got their TMIC and am very happy with it. Always cold. It clears the hood and also the oil cap. Wish I got their radiator kit too...it includes both center and side FMICs, and an air duct for the side unit.
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09-26-2020, 08:38 AM | #25 |
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Hi everyone,
Ravi Dolwani here - owner of CSF I just watched this video from Kies Motorsports, and personally I thought it was a great video - which backs up all of the claims that CSF has ever made about our charge cooler. I have no problems with the majority of the methodology used during the testing, and we're not shying away from the results. (If it's too long to read the entire post, please make sure to read the claim in BOLD towards the bottom about pump duty cycle manipulation). I felt it would be best, for me as the owner of CSF, to come on here now to lend some feedback against some of the comments that have been posted already in this thread + help to share some knowledge about cooling system performance, specifically about bar/plate vs. tube/fin technology (pros/cons) + more information about air/water charge cooling, and the features & benefits of using the CSF upgraded S55 engine charge cooler. Opinion of the testing results I believe Bryan from Kies was honest and transparent about the results he achieved during his testing. He also stated from the very beginning of the video what he thought his expectations would be: in the same range as the OEM cooler (slightly higher / slightly lower /or about the same) - the results: -9hp/-6tq (-2%HP / -1.2%Tq) - To me this is slightly lower or about the same as the OEM system. (The only aspect of this specific test which I wish could be controlled better, no fault to Kies, is the time of the day that the testing was done. The OEM cooler testing was done earlier in the day, and the CSF testing was done later in the day. Air density is higher earlier in the day when it is cooler, and this typically effect the results of the test to some degree) - In no way am I using this an excuse, but lending some knowledge for the benefit of the conversation - Air density variation during dyno testing and tuning can have a big impact on results.) REVIEW OF TESTING
CLAIMS MADE BY CSF
Why you should consider buying CSF's upgraded S55 charge cooler
PROVEN PERFORMANCE
Keeping it real + other information to share
At CSF, we encourage this type of dialog, we embrace this, and we're okay with it. (As long as everyone is willing to invest the time to understanding all the details, it's the way we all learn and advance forward as the automotive performance community) As a BMW and motorsports enthusiast myself (I own an F10 M5 700hp) as well as a 1000+ HP 991 Turbo S Porsche which is top 10 fastest in the world . I started the high performance division of my business because it's a passion of mine, and my goal is to help cars run cooler and more reliably. I believe with this product, we have achieved our goals. I also don't think anyone can say that CSF hasn't stepped up and helped more than most, if not all, manufactures the BMW community with our cooling products and our engagement / involvement with the BMW. I welcome any feedback and I'm here to listen and answer any questions anyone may have. |
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09-26-2020, 11:58 AM | #26 |
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@CSF Cooling Ravi,
Thank you for the detailed response. That's great info to help us understand the outcome of Kies' dyno pulls versus TMIC outcomes during track use. Also great info on why the FMIC is important in the equation too. -TJ
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09-26-2020, 01:07 PM | #27 |
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CSF Cooling i am a large fan of your products, have oil cooler on my E46M track car, fmic on my f30. Investing your time here for a smaller audience of enthusiasts adds to my confidence that when I prefer a product of yours and pull the trigger I’ve made the right choice. Hoping the response from other users is equally respectful.
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09-26-2020, 08:18 PM | #28 |
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These are pretty much margin of error results on the dyno - as far as I'm concerned. Moral of the story is don't be to quick to jump on the internet bandwagon of trashing a product before you've understood all the details. You would test a charge cooler by looking at IAT's and look for hp stability, not peak numbers.
Thanks to Kies and CSF for furthering along the F80 platform with content and products.
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09-27-2020, 06:12 AM | #29 |
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great info
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09-28-2020, 08:34 AM | #30 |
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CSF Cooling Certainly appreciate your reply, even though it is about 4 years late. You might want to refresh your memory and take a look at your initial thread and read you and VF's posts about the cooler, https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1318857.
Timeline: 10/27/16: "Lab testing versus OEM from CSF, Dyno testing by VF, and on track testing by Yost Autosport's new endurance racing M4 race car coming soon" 10/27/16: "We'll be getting all the data together, and we'll be releasing everything before the product is available for sale." 10/28/16: "We've got the first test unit on our car which will be hitting the dyno this afternoon. With SEMA being next week, we'll collect some data logs on our drive to and from Vegas, but won't be able to start full instrument testing until the week following." 11/15/16: "VF Engineering was scheduled to have this cooler on the dyno late last week / early this week. I haven't had a chance to touch base with them this week, but we should be getting together to discuss dyno results in the next week or so....Lab testing from our ISO certified lab will be released before the final production model will be available to market." 12/27/16: "In the mean time we've been focusing on finishing our dyno and road testing, while CSF is working on lab and bench flow testing." 12/29/16: "As soon as we get a day or two with 80°+ F, we'll be back out on the road and at the drag strip to show the recovery benefits of the Heat Exchanger, and the cooling/power benefits of the Charge Cooler." 1/2/17: "We're scheduling our testing and release of our data for ~2 weeks before the release of the coolers. This fits our time schedule, and not anyone elses. We also have Pure Turbos putting the charge-air-cooler + CSF heat exchanger on their own company development vehicle as well. This will be an additional 3rd party validation of the results. They were alaso very busy wrapping up the year, but I did touch base with them last week to confirm that all of our time schedules are still in sink with the release of the cooler. We will be releasing the data soon." 1/25/17: "We've been testing.. 1st 15 kits arrive this week - all sold - they're going to the right people in the right cars around the world. Data will be coming soon from CSF/VF" 1/26/17: "While we've stated before that presenting the results of our testing has been delayed due to less than ideal testing conditions, that doesn't mean we have ceased testing altogether. So far we have seen charge air temperatures decrease by as much as 15 °F on the dyno (with IAT's dropping from and average of 113 °F down to 98 °F), with power increasing by an average of 8 HP and 10 TQ to the wheels (improving from 487hp/509tq to 495hp/518tq), on a day with a modest ambient temperature of 76-78 °F." 2/10/17: "Will be going down personally to Pure Turbos tomorrow to complete testing on the full-kit." 7/7/17: This was the last time CSF or VF replied in this thread even with many people still waiting/asking for data. This is just a bad look IMO. But again, I am sure you don't really care because you have sold so many kits. Last edited by applesauce683; 09-28-2020 at 12:08 PM.. |
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09-28-2020, 11:30 AM | #31 |
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There's still no data from them to this day, and it took a highly reputable vendor with a good amount of followers to get them to post even more marketing. Some of the WR holders they highlighted aren't even fond of their charge air cooler.
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09-28-2020, 02:05 PM | #32 | |
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Quote:
Sorry you think it's a bad look, but your quote is absolute spot on - Over the weekend we sold 12 charge coolers, about half of those sales where directly attributed to the post that I made with messages saying so. To all the guys who continue to post negative about the product, don't choose to be positive about the vendors who support Bimmerpost with our sponsorship, you guys are the problem and why so many companies are choosing to walk away from forums. I've been a member of Bimmerpost for over 7+ years, and I can see what's happening to it - This isn't the bible of BMW information and feedback, plenty of guys are talking positive about the product at the track, on FB groups, in shops, etc. We have made mistakes in the past, jumped the gun on statements which didn't come to fruition the way we wanted them to (3+ years ago), etc. We can only try and do better moving forward. And our record and reputation in the BMW community speaks for itself The guys posting negatively about the product can continue to throw shade, and to be honest it doesn't effect us one bit - Close to 3000 of them now sold, record sales month in August for these coolers. We can't make them fast enough and are always waiting for more stock to arrive -Some of you guys are seem very salty and I feel bad for you - We're here making money, you're here posting negatively doing what? Enjoy your crusade. Sorry not sorry |
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09-28-2020, 08:54 PM | #33 | |
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09-29-2020, 01:13 AM | #34 |
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It's not only CSF guys, but other manufacturers are also guilty as charged, we should throw all of them under the bus.
VRSF charge cooler introduction VRSF Claims: The OEM intercooler will rise in temperatures up to 105 whereas the VRSF dual pass, high density top mount intercooler will reduce temps down pull which is both harmful for your engine and robs you of power. Members ask for logs and proof of such claims... Timeline: 5/16/19 - Tiago@VRSF: We'll have logs up shortly 5/27/19 - Tiago@VRSF: We'll have them posted shortly. 6/20/19 - Tiago@VRSF: I apologize for the delay, the data we were provided with included both the front mounted cooler we've been working on as well as the top mount cooler. We've been waiting for independent results from a couple customers for the top mounted intercooler alone so we don't have inflated results, we should have something up shortly Logs were never posted by the manufacturer as promised... no surprise. 4/12/20 - M Turbo: I purchased mine directly from VRSF 6/2019 and have seen nothing but horrible results. First; my IAT went must higher under boost and cruising than than prior with my OEM and with same conditions. And second the quality is just bad. VRSF should replace or refund these. It's been in my garage stored a week after I bought it. Waste of money. 5/7/20 - Tiago@VRSF: Fake news, please refrain from spreading nonsense without proof to substantiate your claims. We have over 120 of these out in the wild with nothing but positive results. Still no proof or logs. I guess because they sold "120" of these they must be good. 5/7/20 - Tiago@VRSF: Please post your logs and your order information. Otherwise, refrain from spreading false information. The vendor gets mad and demands M turbo posts logs and order information. That's funny, asking a customer for logs and proof of purchase when you promised for almost a year to post your own. How ironic. 5/7/20 - Tiago@VRSF: We have independent logs that were provide by a shop who upgraded both the top mount and the front mount intercooler at the same time so it's impossible to say if the results are from one or the other. We'll take the time to recreate individual testing conditions on our shop car in order to compare the OEM to the upgraded unit. Claiming you have personal experience with the product when you can't prove you own it is spreading false information. If you're concerned with the integrity of forums like these where shills often prey on the less educated, you shouldn't condone the behavior of spreading false information. Yet again claims they have logs and data but never posts them. The thread has since gone cold with the vendor never posting data to back up their claims. Seems like a viscious cycle with these charge cooler manufacturers, make bold claims, promise yet never posts results (because more than likely they showed worse than stock performance) THEN GETS MAD WHEN CHALLENGED by customers. Honestly, the only charge cooler I would ever put on my car if I still had my F80 would be the Wagner one or keep the stock OEM. |
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09-29-2020, 02:07 AM | #35 |
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^Hmm, I wonder if my car has been running inconsistent as of late (started a thread yesterday, latest addition was a VRSF cooler to replace my OEM cooler leaking internally
If BM3 allows logging this in some shape or form please let me know.
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09-29-2020, 05:54 AM | #36 | |
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Another member having issues after installing, read up here. https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1615063 |
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09-29-2020, 09:52 AM | #37 | |
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One thing i would recommend is to check the coolant level of the low pressure. Its possible air is still in the system. It took a couple drives to finally stabilize the level. Just keep topping the level to the top marker and check on it every couple days. I did this for a month until the level stabilized. Last edited by hC1001; 09-29-2020 at 10:04 AM.. |
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09-29-2020, 11:57 AM | #38 | ||
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The stock one was, the VRSF is the one you dropshipped to me. Quote:
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09-29-2020, 04:43 PM | #39 |
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A bit surprised to see that response as well
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09-29-2020, 10:51 PM | #40 | ||
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09-29-2020, 11:05 PM | #41 |
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pulled my csf off and put the stock one back on.... I've seen to many ...at least 3 dyno pulls where ( the CSF ) made less hp than the stock cooler ( 10 to 12 hp less )
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09-29-2020, 11:38 PM | #42 | |
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Dyno-proven average power gains of 11 whp and 8 wtq with peak gains of up to 31 whp and 10 wtq on stage 1 tuned vehicle I would most likely go this route when my stock one goes.
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09-30-2020, 03:08 AM | #43 |
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yes indeed... bimmerworld has a cr intercooler...looks good but extremely expensive at $3,999
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09-30-2020, 07:48 AM | #44 | |
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For $4K we can have the Wagner TMIC plus their two FMIC kit.
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