INTRODUCING - The Game Changer in Performance Braking!

[MFactory]

*** PRODUCT UPDATE ***

After finishing our first samples of our new Carbon Composite Brake Discs, we have dissected them to check structural integrity and everything checks out ok. Next up is dyno testing to check for performance and wear under high temp/frictional loads.

All going well, expect these to be released to market by the end of the year (if you will be attending PMW in Cologne next month, we will have a sample on display). Our aim is to have a full range of fitments available for most popular vehicles and will be direct oem-replacement (i.e oem calipers can be used)

These will be our "Game Changer" product, offering the same level of performance (stopping power, fade, heat dissipation) and weight reduction (under 3kg per disc for 15/16/17" fitments and under 6kg for 18/19" fitments) as our top-tier Carbon Ceramic discs, yet will be priced comparably to high performance 2pc Iron discs (PFC, Giro Disc etc at a few hundred $'s per disc)

So what's the difference between these and our Carbon Ceramic discs (other than cost)?

The only difference is durability (i.e wear/oxidation) under heavy track use (high temps). Whereas our Carbon Ceramic discs are constructed from 1pc solid material (and take 2-3 months to produce), these new discs are actually made from several layers of "off cuts" from the Carbon Ceramic production process stacked on top of each other (multi-layer).

Don't confuse this with the cheap "chopped" Carbon Ceramic discs on the market; we still use the same material as our next generation Carbon Ceramic discs, but instead of throwing away the "off-cuts", we can now put them to better use. Not only does this significantly reduce costs, it also reduces the production time to only 2 weeks!

For heavy track use though, we would still recommend our Carbon Ceramic discs due to the increased durability. For street use and occasional track use, there would be zero difference other than cost.

Stay tuned for more updates after we've finished the dyno testing 😎

If you have any questions, or if you are interested in testing/sponsorship, please PM me.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by MFactory

For heavy track use though, we would still recommend our Carbon Ceramic discs due to the increased durability. For street use and occasional track use, there would be zero difference other than cost.

How do you expect them to compare longevity-wise to AP/Girodisc/Paragon iron discs for heavy track use? I know you mentioned your one-piece carbon rotors are better, but it seems like these carbon composites are competing more with the iron rotors given the similar price you mentioned.

[pikkagtr]

Interest in 5x112 G29/A90 fitment

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

How do you expect them to compare longevity-wise to AP/Girodisc/Paragon iron discs for heavy track use? I know you mentioned your one-piece carbon rotors are better, but it seems like these carbon composites are competing more with the iron rotors given the similar price you mentioned.

As they are still Carbon Ceramic discs (we just don't call them that in order to differentiate between our products. In saying that, we will probably give them a new name at launch) and are made from the exact same material (and initial process) as our current Carbon Ceramic discs (i.e T700-grade continuous/long carbon fibre in an SiC 3D matrix), with the only difference being they are "multi-layer" vs "1pc", so they should actually last similar, if not longer, than regular iron discs.

Of course, pads are a different story and will depend on what pads you are using (be it ours, Endless, Pagid etc). Out of all the pads, Endless have the best longevity/durability, but lack the performance of ours and Pagid. This is something that we are working on just now with various compounds to come up with the ideal performance:durability ratio.

Our current Carbon Ceramic discs have been tested for over a year now in the Ferrari 488 Challenge cars as well as in the Porsche Nordschleife 24hr endurance races and the discs are still as-new in terms of wear, so if that's anything to go by, it certainly looks promising for the "cheaper" discs. For rapid wear (oxidation) to occur, this requires temps consistently hitting over 800c (i.e the "boiling point" for carbon ceramic) which our discs don't really see due to self-regulation. Oxidation will occur at lower temps, albeit very slowly, so a solid 1pc disc does have an advantage in terms of oxygen penetration rate (lower penetration). Iron discs have frictional wear regardless of temperature.

Of course, even if there are overlaps, we still need to somewhat differentiate between 1st Class and Business Class (Business 101). So yeah, our top-tier Carbon Ceramic discs are technically the better product and is what we would recommend (budget allowing) for heavy/aggressive track-only cars.

[M3SQRD]

How are discrete off cuts combined to form a continuous fiber brake rotor, not a rotor made from a series of discontinuous off cuts formed into a single rotor? Can you show a picture of what an off cut looks like or a rotor that’s ready to be formed from a series of off cuts?

How many track days do you expect to get out of an off cut rotor before requiring refurbishing compared to your premier continuous fiber rotor?

Weren’t you developing your own track pads? Pagid and Endless offer CCB brake pads for a limited number of calipers (i.e., calipers that come with oem CCB brakes) so who’s going to make street and track CCB pads for oem calipers that came with iron rotors?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by MFactory

As they are still Carbon Ceramic discs (we just don't call them that in order to differentiate between our products. In saying that, we will probably give them a new name at launch) and are made from the exact same material (and initial process) as our current Carbon Ceramic discs (i.e T700-grade continuous/long carbon fibre in an SiC 3D matrix), with the only difference being they are "multi-layer" vs "1pc", so they should actually last similar, if not longer, than regular iron discs.

Of course, pads are a different story and will depend on what pads you are using (be it ours, Endless, Pagid etc). Out of all the pads, Endless have the best longevity/durability, but lack the performance of ours and Pagid. This is something that we are working on just now with various compounds to come up with the ideal performance:durability ratio.

Our current Carbon Ceramic discs have been tested for over a year now in the Ferrari 488 Challenge cars as well as in the Porsche Nordschleife 24hr endurance races and the discs are still as-new in terms of wear, so if that's anything to go by, it certainly looks promising for the "cheaper" discs. For rapid wear (oxidation) to occur, this requires temps consistently hitting over 800c (i.e the "boiling point" for carbon ceramic) which our discs don't really see due to self-regulation. Oxidation will occur at lower temps, albeit very slowly, so a solid 1pc disc does have an advantage in terms of oxygen penetration rate (lower penetration). Iron discs have frictional wear regardless of temperature.

Of course, even if there are overlaps, we still need to somewhat differentiate between 1st Class and Business Class (Business 101). So yeah, our top-tier Carbon Ceramic discs are technically the better product and is what we would recommend (budget allowing) for heavy/aggressive track-only cars.

Will you be making replacement rings for others' hats (like AP or Giro), or is there some structural requirement of these that requires a different hat design (like the float in hat rather than float in rotor)? I'd be interested in looking at this product when I need to replace my AP Racing brake kit rotors.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

How are discrete off cuts combined to form a continuous fiber brake rotor, not a rotor made from a series of discontinuous off cuts formed into a single rotor? Can you show a picture of what an off cut looks like or a rotor that’s ready to be formed from a series of off cuts?

How many track days do you expect to get out of an off cut rotor before requiring refurbishing compared to your premier continuous fiber rotor?

Weren’t you developing your own track pads? Pagid and Endless offer CCB brake pads for a limited number of calipers (i.e., calipers that come with oem CCB brakes) so who’s going to make street and track CCB pads for oem calipers that came with iron rotors?

Maybe "off-cuts" was the incorrect term, but I didn't mean it like in small pieces of waste material, but rather, whole layers (a layer basically covering the entire surface area of the disc. An analogy I guess could be putting a rack of meat onto a meat slicer). As we make a lot of different "thickness" discs (ranging from 20-50mm) and for various industries/applications (not just motorsports), we use larger blanks and "slice" them down to size; this leaves a lot of waste "layers". These are not the same as chopped fibre discs made from little pieces here and there compacted together.

As these are still basically the same as our Carbon Ceramic discs (albeit constructed from multiple layers), they do not suffer from frictional wear in the traditional sense. Wear on a carbon ceramic disc is due to oxidation, which is determined by how much oxygen penetrates the disc core and the braking temps reached. A CCM disc that is properly made is virtually impregnable, with oxygen unable to enter the disc core, only able to "wear" slowly from the outer surfaces of the disc (inc. inside the vanes and holes).

How many track days can be achieved on a multi-layer disc vs a 1pc disc? That is still TBD. These discs won't be released to market until full dyno and real-world testing is finished.

Yes, as mentioned in my post, we do make our own pads. We are one of the only manufacturers that make pads for non-CCB calipers at present (currently larger 4-pots and above), and will be the only one to make them for smaller sized non-CCB calipers (2 pots, small 4 pots etc) after these new discs are released to market. Unlike most other CCB/CCM manufacturers, our target is not "supercars" or OE CCB cars, but the regular street cars.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Will you be making replacement rings for others' hats (like AP or Giro), or is there some structural requirement of these that requires a different hat design (like the float in hat rather than float in rotor)? I'd be interested in looking at this product when I need to replace my AP Racing brake kit rotors.

Our only plans at present is to offer our discs (be it ring only, or with the bell) for our own bells. Having standardised fitments reduces manufacturing costs.

If customers wish to purchase the ring only and machine their own custom bell, they may do so and we will provide our M8 fasteners and template for them to do so.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Maybe "off-cuts" was the incorrect term, but I didn't mean it like in small pieces of waste material, but rather, whole layers (a layer basically covering the entire surface area of the disc. An analogy I guess could be putting a rack of meat onto a meat slicer). As we make a lot of different "thickness" discs (ranging from 20-50mm) and for various industries/applications (not just motorsports), we use larger blanks and "slice" them down to size; this leaves a lot of waste "layers". These are not the same as chopped fibre discs made from little pieces here and there compacted together.

As these are still basically the same as our Carbon Ceramic discs (albeit constructed from multiple layers), they do not suffer from frictional wear in the traditional sense. Wear on a carbon ceramic disc is due to oxidation, which is determined by how much oxygen penetrates the disc core and the braking temps reached. A CCM disc that is properly made is virtually impregnable, with oxygen unable to enter the disc core, only able to "wear" slowly from the outer surfaces of the disc (inc. inside the vanes and holes).

How many track days can be achieved on a multi-layer disc vs a 1pc disc? That is still TBD. These discs won't be released to market until full dyno and real-world testing is finished.

Yes, as mentioned in my post, we do make our own pads. We are one of the only manufacturers that make pads for non-CCB calipers at present (currently larger 4-pots and above), and will be the only one to make them for smaller sized non-CCB calipers (2 pots, small 4 pots etc) after [...]

Sliced meat makes much more sense and is easy to visualize, especially as one continuous Carbon sheet. Seems like if you cut at a small angle you’d end up with sheets not having continuous Carbon sheets. Having worked with thick section composite structures (30-50 mm thick), it’s practically impossible to setup a thin slicer to maintain a continuous layer when slicing off a section. Is this a primary or secondary concern when stacking discontinuous sliced carbon sections to create a new disc?

Yes, I do understand the wear in terms of oxidation internally. I was looking for a rough estimate in terms of number of track days. For example, PFC rotors are usable until the min thickness is reach whereas other manufacturers have to be replaced much sooner due to large cracks, crack propagation, etc. So PFC are good for 40-50 track days and, unfortunately, others are no longer usable after 5-10 days.

So for most applications, you’d be limited to only pad compounds you offer? I don’t see Pagid and Endless making CCB pads for non-factory CCB brake setups.

FaRKle?’s question about whether you’ll offer non-oem AP Racing, Brembo, Alcon, etc. track brake rotors for the f8x and it could potentially be one of your largest market shares because relatively inexpensive track carbon rotor replacements would be highly used at the price point you’re discussing.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sliced meat makes much more sense and is easy to visualize, especially as one continuous Carbon sheet. Seems like if you cut at a small angle you’d end up with sheets not having continuous Carbon sheets. Having worked with thick section composite structures (30-50 mm thick), it’s practically impossible to setup a thin slicer to maintain a continuous layer when slicing off a section. Is this a primary or secondary concern when stacking discontinuous sliced carbon sections to create a new disc?

Yes, I do understand the wear in terms of oxidation internally. I was looking for a rough estimate in terms of number of track days. For example, PFC rotors are usable until the min thickness is reach whereas other manufacturers have to be replaced much sooner due to large cracks, crack propagation, etc. So PFC are good for 40-50 track days and, unfortunately, others are no longer usable after 5-10 days.

So for most applications, you’d be limited to only pad compounds you offer? I don’t see Pagid and Endless making CCB pads for non-factory CCB brake setups.

FaRKle?’s question about whether you’ll offer non-oem AP Racing, Brembo, Alcon, etc. track brake rotors for the f8x and it could potentially be one of your largest market shares because relatively inexpensive track carbon rotor replacements would be highly used at the price point you’re discussing.

Even if the individual layers are at a slight angle, the internal structure of the layer is still continuous (long) carbon; that won't change. It would be discontinuous in the sense that each layer is an individual layer, but is far from the same as the discontinuous (short/chopped) carbon that is found on OE CCB/CCM's. The Siliconization process still needs to be done to the carbon/carbon disc.

For track longevity, how long is a piece of string? We can do all the dyno testing we like (which allows us to simulate actual track data) and we will be doing live testing as well, but until we've done that, I don't have an exact answer for you unfortunately. We've only just completed the structural analysis phase and will be moving onto the dyno testing phase after we've finished machining the blanks.

Our discs (inc. our current Carbon Ceramics) can be used with regular pads (Low-Metallic Carbon and Ceramic non-ccb pads). From a performance perspective though, we don't recommend doing so as the compound in these pads are designed for iron rotors, so the performance & feel won't be as good as using a ccb-specific pad. That doesn't mean you can't use them, and plenty of people do use non-ccb pads on their carbon ceramic discs perfectly fine, such as the Pagid RSL29 and RSL1.

As for making rings for other hat fitments, this is not something we have planned at the moment, however, if there is a market for it like you say, there is no reason why we cannot do this (provided there IS a demand/market for it. We can't just change our tooling around to make a few pcs here and there)

[MFactory]

Cooling vanes added. Next up, simulated track testing on the dyno

[Yuille36]

Have you come up with pricing figure yet? As I would be very interested in buying a set of rotors and pads, if they deliver as promised.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by Yuille36

Have you come up with pricing figure yet? As I would be very interested in buying a set of rotors and pads, if they deliver as promised.

We don't have an exact figure yet as we're still testing the samples (which are 290mm and 330mm). Depending on testing, we may have to play around with the Carbon/SiC ratio, which will change the production costs.

As mentioned in my original post though, we are aiming to release these at comparable cost to other high-end 2pc Iron Discs, so around a few hundred $'s per disc, depending on size & demand (definitely under $1k/disc though, even for our 440mm's).

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Yuille36

Have you come up with pricing figure yet? As I would be very interested in buying a set of rotors and pads, if they deliver as promised.

If the cost/track day is similar, or better than, Alcon, PFC, AP Racing, Girodisc and Paragon two-piece rotors, without sudden rupture, then for their estimated costs of $300-1000/disc could make them very popular. Wide spread use of chopped fiber CCBs haven’t been widely used due to their extreme cost and limited life. The extra ~3-4 lbm savings over an iron rotor of similar size isn’t insignificant when it comes to unsprung mass. If they perform as expected, the only major downside is the limited CCB friendly brake pads. I’m not a fan of any compound offered by Pagid so I’m confident I would not be a fan of their CCB pad offerings. However, if this catches on then I can see more manufacturers investing in the development of CCB pad compounds. I suppose PFC has some experience with creating carbon-carbon brake setups (I know it’s not the same as CCB but it’s more knowledgeable than what Hawk, CT, Cobalt, etc. have) for IndyCar. Although, they made changes to the 2022 system for 2024 and, at the beginning of the season, it’s resulted in fires on rotor guards which are extinguished if there’s still airflow but it can result in a much larger fire if they come to a quick complete stop especially after a long sustained high-G 3-4 G braking events.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

If the cost/track day is similar, or better than, Alcon, PFC, AP Racing, Girodisc and Paragon two-piece rotors, without sudden rupture, then for their estimated costs of $300-1000/disc could make them very popular. Wide spread use of chopped fiber CCBs haven’t been widely used due to their extreme cost and limited life. The extra ~3-4 lbm savings over an iron rotor of similar size isn’t insignificant when it comes to unsprung mass. If they perform as expected, the only major downside is the limited CCB friendly brake pads. I’m not a fan of any compound offered by Pagid so I’m confident I would not be a fan of their CCB pad offerings. However, if this catches on then I can see more manufacturers investing in the development of CCB pad compounds. I suppose PFC has some experience with creating carbon-carbon brake setups (I know it’s not the same as CCB but it’s more knowledgeable than what Hawk, CT, Cobalt, etc. have) for IndyCar. Although, they made changes to the 2022 system for 2024 and, at the beginning of the season, it’s resulted in fires on rotor guards which are extinguished if there’s still airflow but it can result in a much larger fire if they come to a quick complete stop especially after a long sustained high-G 3-4 G braking events.

FYI, even though we have our own pad compounds, we are currently working with Endless, Dixcel and Alcon on expanding their range of CCB and non-CCB (but still CCB friendly) pads for both our Carbon Ceramic (CCM) and our Carbon Composite (we decided to name them CCS btw! S for "Street"! haha) discs, so there will definitely be a few more options in the near future. We actually have a meeting with Dixcel and Endless in Japan this coming week, and will be meeting up with Alcon when we go over to the UK in January.

For reference, an OEM 2pc M3 Iron disc weighs 13kg (28.6lbs), and an OEM 2pc M5 Iron disc weighs 15kg (33lbs), both using their patented cast aluminium semi-floating bells (so are already lighter than their 1pc discs). Our equivalent sized discs weigh under 6kg (13.2lbs, inc. bell). Take what you want from that, but that is a LOT of weight saving per corner (28kg, or 61.6lbs of total unsprung rotating mass savings on your F8X M3 is very significant)

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by MFactory

FYI, even though we have our own pad compounds, we are currently working with Endless, Dixcel and Alcon on expanding their range of CCB and non-CCB (but still CCB friendly) pads for both our Carbon Ceramic (CCM) and our Carbon Composite (we decided to name them CCS btw! S for "Street"! haha) discs, so there will definitely be a few more options in the near future. We actually have a meeting with Dixcel and Endless in Japan this coming week, and will be meeting up with Alcon when we go over to the UK in January.

For reference, an OEM 2pc M3 Iron disc weighs 13kg (28.6lbs), and an OEM 2pc M5 Iron disc weighs 15kg (33lbs), both using their patented cast aluminium semi-floating bells (so are already lighter than their 1pc discs). Our equivalent sized discs weigh under 6kg (13.2lbs, inc. bell). Take what you want from that, but that is a LOT of weight saving per corner (28kg, or 61.6lbs of total unsprung rotating mass savings on your F8X M3 is very significant)

I was comparing your CCB rotors to Alcon, PFC and AP Racing rotor rings which already save considerable weight compared to oem rotors. I personally don’t see a large market for non-M street cars and a limited market for M cars that want to show off at car meets. I believe the biggest market will be the group that tracks non-M and M cars. Most BMW owners believe the SHW OE rotors (produce BMW M oem rotors but without BMW and ///M logos) are already too expensive and instead purchase $60-80/aftermarket rotor. So $300-1000/rotor is way too expensive for the average owner whereas track owners would find that very affordable if the $$$/track day meets or exceeds high-quality iron race rotors $$$/track day. High-end brake rotors can survive 40-45 days with a cost of ~$400/rotor or ~$9.00/track day.

One thing not clear to me unless I missed it is it sounds like your plan is to create as large of a market as you can, if there’s sufficient market interest, so do people have to buy your calipers offered with the same pad profiles or are you designing two-piece CCB rotors with different hat to rotor thickness offsets for floating vs. fixed calipers (with different floating rotor designs, some of which are patented) that fit multiple different calipers per manufacturer with appropriate CCB pad profiles per caliper?

[MFactory]

Our target market is not owners that purchase low-cost discs; our target market are those who purchase the higher end performance 2pc Iron discs. We'll see after dyno/live testing how our new CCS compare to our current CCM's (which have been used for far more than 40+ sessions on both pro-level Ferrari 488's and Porsche 992's). Even if the CCS's only last half the amount of sessions, the weight savings and increased performance may be worth it to some. We'll see, no point saying this and that until after we've finished testing

Customers do not have to use our calipers, no, not even with our current CCM's. We make disc sizes (OD and thickness) to whatever the market demand is. For example, if a 380x38mm disc is popular (which it is, very), we will make that size. Our bells are custom made-to-order (unless it is a standard/popular fitment, which we'll keep in stock), so the customer decides upon ordering their discs the exact pcd/offset/thickness that they require for the bell.

For pads, we will make the popular fitments/sizes. For something that is less common (such as the Wilwood sizes), we can custom machine the pads to fit that caliper.

[jaylazy2020]

Will you makes front and rear discs to fit the 2NH brake upgrade? 400 fronts and 380 rears.

Thanks.

[MFactory]

Originally Posted by jaylazy2020

Will you makes front and rear discs to fit the 2NH brake upgrade? 400 fronts and 380 rears.

Thanks.

Yes, we will

[jaylazy2020]

Originally Posted by MFactory

Yes, we will

Would it be case of just switching the discs and pads?

Probably the brake booster and coding too.

[MFactory]

Correct, yes.

Booster, that would probably come down to personal preference when setting up your car.

[b_w.]

Would be interested in these for my alcons. Need new rotors and got two seasons out of the irons. 99 percent track use.