evo Magazine Supertest: M4 CP vs RS5 vs C63 S

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by FC05

They used those on i cars already, carbon core on 7 ser's but not yet applied to 5ser and downwards

Correct

[Blackhawk878]

I love threads arguing about who's opinion is the best.....wait what forum is this, shit NM

[FC05]

I think EVO mags are trustworthy, they not biased.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

BMW needs to use a Carbon Tub.

If Alfa can do it, then BMW can considering they own a CF Manufacturing Plant.

The Alfa you refer to with a CF tub is the 4C, right? Their M3 competitor, the Giulia, is steel just like the M3.

Also, BMW does have a Carbon Fiber Manufacturing facility:

http://www.sglacf.com/en.html

Now, its true they don't choose to use the technology to build a traditional sports car like the 4C. But they do have the i3 and i8. Admittedly those don't necessarily tick the boxes for the enthusiast.

But as far as the topic of this thread, both BMW and Fiat have CF body shell technology, and neither use it in this class of car. Nor do either of the other two competitors that are related to the topic of this thread. So, maybe start a different topic to discuss it? Just a suggestion.

[termigni]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Is it Porsche? No? But was I close?

All three of the cars in the test are sport coupes which are based on sport sedans that are meant for daily commuting and family carrying. None of these are pure sports cars. The differences among them come down to each brand's interpretation of what a high performance sport coupe should be. Each have finished first in some of the many tests that have compared the three (and other competitors), so there is not necessarily a clear winner among them. And while each individual may have one or more they are partial to or prefer for one reason or another, none of these would make for an outright miserable experience. It is hard to go wrong in this class of vehicle.

finally we have someone with a brain!

[ORIGIN M.]

It was just a comment regard weight, and I actually know all about BMW's CF plant.

So if you want to start a new thread, go for it!

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The Alfa you refer to with a CF tub is the 4C, right? Their M3 competitor, the Giulia, is steel just like the M3.

Also, BMW does have a Carbon Fiber Manufacturing facility:

http://www.sglacf.com/en.html

Now, its true they don't choose to use the technology to build a traditional sports car like the 4C. But they do have the i3 and i8. Admittedly those don't necessarily tick the boxes for the enthusiast.

But as far as the topic of this thread, both BMW and Fiat have CF body shell technology, and neither use it in this class of car. Nor do either of the other two competitors that are related to the topic of this thread. So, maybe start a different topic to discuss it? Just a suggestion.

[adc]

Originally Posted by DrtyJrze

There are hardware differences between ZCP and Non ZCP.

So you probably should shut your mouth and go drive one

Was this confirmed, regarding the HW differences? What are they?

And I will, it’s probably my next car in 2018...

[adc]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What about the higher rate springs and sway bars?

Sway bars would make sense, but higher rate springs with the same travel but without shock changes maybe not so much. Larger wheels with smaller sidewalls definitely affect the handling (and that last combined 5% spring rate).

Just curious whether anyone was actually able to confirm the spring story.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by adc

Sway bars would make sense, but higher rate springs with the same travel but without shock changes maybe not so much. Larger wheels with smaller sidewalls definitely affect the handling (and that last combined 5% spring rate).

Just curious whether anyone was actually able to confirm the spring story.

The CP only comes with EDC which has been re-calibrated for the CP. So the damper rates are not the same...

Eibach measured the spring rates for the base and non-CP, so it is confirmed.

M3 (Civic)
Front - 177 lbs/in
Rear – 591 lbs/in

M3 (Comp. Pkg)
Front – 198 lbs/in
Rear – 685 lbs/in

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=33

[adc]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The CP only comes with EDC which has been re-calibrated for the CP. So the damper rates are not the same...

Eibach measured the spring rates for the base and non-CP, so it is confirmed.

M3 (Civic)
Front - 177 lbs/in
Rear – 591 lbs/in

M3 (Comp. Pkg)
Front – 198 lbs/in
Rear – 685 lbs/in

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=33

The CP can opt for the non EDC suspension at no cost, I think. Still, it’s good to know there is a difference compared to my Civic.

I would have thought the M3 would have also benefited from a drop in the CG, meaning shorter springs, but whatever. I’ll buy it anyway.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

It was just a comment regard weight, and I actually know all about BMW's CF plant.

Yeah, my bad on that part - I actually misread your post. I thought you had said the opposite.

Anyway, the important point here is that nobody is using a CF unibody in this vehicle class - or really any class of luxury sedan. In fact, the only non-sports car I'm aware of that is made from CFRP is the i3.

Although BMW's CLAR platform is designed to allow CFRP to be incorporated in the BIW, so far that's been reserved for the 7 Series. I was hoping to see more of it in the F90 M5, but that didn't happen. Sadly, that means it is pretty unlikely for the next M3 as well.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by adc

The CP can opt for the non EDC suspension at no cost, I think. Still, it’s good to know there is a difference compared to my Civic.

I would have thought the M3 would have also benefited from a drop in the CG, meaning shorter springs, but whatever. I’ll buy it anyway.

They left that for the MP HAS, which apparently have the same spring rates as the CP springs.

[MiamiFan13]

Originally Posted by 613Bimmer

Kinda surprised about the mention of poor cabin build quality in the C63S... isn't the cabin what it's usually praised for among the competition?

The C63s had the best interior and the best motor....and its the best looking car too. Oh wait, it also sounds the best!! Lame review!

I love all 3 cars, but imo the review was ignoring what matters most to those who buy these cars.

[vladberca]

Originally Posted by MiamiF

The C63s had the best interior and the best motor....and its the best looking car too. Oh wait, it also sounds the best!! Lame review!

I love all 3 cars, but imo the review was ignoring what matters most to those who buy these cars.

For some buyers the track fun is also important. Here the M4 shines!
Each car has advantages or disadvantages, it would be somehow boring to have the same character on all these cars

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yeah, my bad on that part - I actually misread your post. I thought you had said the opposite.

Anyway, the important point here is that nobody is using a CF unibody in this vehicle class - or really any class of luxury sedan. In fact, the only non-sports car I'm aware of that is made from CFRP is the i3.

Although BMW's CLAR platform is designed to allow CFRP to be incorporated in the BIW, so far that's been reserved for the 7 Series. I was hoping to see more of it in the F90 M5, but that didn't happen. Sadly, that means it is pretty unlikely for the next M3 as well.

Yeah I guess the M5 is a huge telltale.

Unless BMW M decides to do things completely backwards and bring it to the upcoming M3/4 first.

[Chicken_Joe]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

Yup, in that one it did.

In this one, it won

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003386

Don't get me wrong, if the question is 'best sports car to rip around a track and damn any other uses' the 911 should win more often than not.

If the question is 'best sporty car that i can throw 2 sets of golf clubs OR 2 hockey bags and/or a couple of kids and still get a 4.0 second 0-100 time', the F8X should win more often.

This summer did a trip to our place in teh mountains. Our normal highway machine (an E350 wagon) had a bulging sidewall so we ditched that car and myself, wife, 2 kids went with luggage and all 4 sets of clubs (2 were junior sets, but still) in the F8X. 400 km each way.

worked. like. a. boss.

and was still fast and sporty.

so, yeah, for me i'd never consider the 911.

when the kids are gone....and i want it for a different purpose.....then maybe (though i maintain the 911 is not very pretty. the 718/cayman is much prettier)

But golf is for free masons and they drive a Lexus.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Chicken_Joe

But golf is for free masons and they drive a Lexus.

anyway, i guess we have to kill you now.

damn.

[BwoodBMW]

Its shit

Dude c'mon... You can argue that the M is preferable (I argued that point with my wallet and bought an M3) but you certainly can't say the AMG is shit. Its a pretty fantastic car. The motor is better. Unless your M has full leather (mine does) the interior on the AMG is a clear winner. Yeah the transmission isn't the best but go drive any new porsche with PDK and you'll see why I argue that the DCT isn't anything so great itself.

Give me any of these 3 cars and my bet is that in the next 10 days of my life there will be something I do that each of these cars will handle better than the others.

[Chicken_Joe]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

anyway, i guess we have to kill you now.

damn.

Lmfaoooooooo I found you out!!!

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by BwoodBMW

Dude c'mon... You can argue that the M is preferable (I argued that point with my wallet and bought an M3) but you certainly can't say the AMG is shit. Its a pretty fantastic car. The motor is better. Unless your M has full leather (mine does) the interior on the AMG is a clear winner. Yeah the transmission isn't the best but go drive any new porsche with PDK and you'll see why I argue that the DCT isn't anything so great itself.

Give me any of these 3 cars and my bet is that in the next 10 days of my life there will be something I do that each of these cars will handle better than the others.

I'm pretty certain this guy got his butt banned already once. (I'm speaking to the dude you replied to)

People buy AMGs for their engine. Those who drive AMGs don't care much about the transmission once you hear the engine and acoustics of it. As sad as I am to say this, AMG cars will always sound better than the Ms, by far. I don't even care for stuff like that myself.

AMGs comes with certain factors that will always makes it a selling point. One person built engine, amazing engine and sound. You drive a car like that you won't care much for the transmission.

I love my M, but each one of these cars are built with different purpose in mind. So these comparisons are nothing more than dick comparing contests that most actual buyers won't care for. Car enthusiasts are far beyond in the minority when it comes to car sales. Comparison tests doesn't mean much other than giving some of you pointless arguing points.

[N & M]

Very cool to see that the M4 gets put back on top of that #1 step on the podium.

I really hope that BMW learns from this situation and develops the successor better to be the focused car (from the onset) that the competition package became.

Many M devotees hate the M performance range but I really feel that their existence can give M the latitude to chase sales of customers who require a toned down experience while keeping true M core products like the M3/M4 true to their original mission.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I'm pretty certain this guy got his butt banned already once. (I'm speaking to the dude you replied to)

People buy AMGs for their engine. Those who drive AMGs don't care much about the transmission once you hear the engine and acoustics of it. As sad as I am to say this, AMG cars will always sound better than the Ms, by far. I don't even care for stuff like that myself.

AMGs comes with certain factors that will always makes it a selling point. One person built engine, amazing engine and sound. You drive a car like that you won't care much for the transmission.

I love my M, but each one of these cars are built with different purpose in mind. So these comparisons are nothing more than dick comparing contests that most actual buyers won't care for. Car enthusiasts are far beyond in the minority when it comes to car sales. Comparison tests doesn't mean much other than giving some of you pointless arguing points.

I disagree about the purpose of these comparisons. They simply bring the various qualities and defects into light and contrast them with those of the other cars. You can read one of these comparisons and actually say “based on this, I think I actually like the AMG more”.

Evo being the self-touted enthusiast’s magazine, they usually care most about the driving experience (handling, emotion and whatnot). I personally agree with their choice (duh, I voted with my wallet after all, and will vote again next year).