What to do if car loses control?

[ibimmer954]

Originally Posted by ccondo

Does anyone know of any videos or good info about how to regain control of a car in various situations?

Any advice and info is appreciated.

Originally Posted by ccondo

Does anyone know of any videos or good info about how to regain control of a car in various situations?

Any advice and info is appreciated.

Short questions get short answers. I think it boils down to this:

1. Always look where you want to go.
2. Steer to the direction you want to go.

This takes lots of practice to get the right feel. It also ignores two major issues:

1. Balance
2. Smooth inputs to try and maintain that balance.

[aboulfad]

Here is a very interesting video to watch and read the comments! Pray that you are never faced with correcting oversteer at this extreme high speed. http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1391299

@canautm3, you forgot the third most important type of oversteer, it’s referred to as “C&C oversteer”: basically you are driving a Sakhir Orange M4, leaving in a straight line from a Car’s and Coffee meeting and you apply too much throttle and one tire psi is off from the others.

[ccondo]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Here is a very interesting video to watch and read the comments! Pray that you are never faced with correcting oversteer at this extreme high speed. http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1391299

@canautm3, you forgot the third most important type of oversteer, its referred to as C&C oversteer: basically you are driving a Sakhir Orange M4, leaving in a straight line from a Cars and Coffee meeting and you apply too much throttle and one tire psi is off from the others.

I thought that was called IMDS - idiot mustang driver syndrome.

[darkbluemn]

So , try to get rid of instructor and turn DSC off.

Well, most instructor won't let you turn it off in well organized club. So try some clubs that are well organized but can sign you for solo drive easily.

For the skill, do a lot of ski pads and you will know what to do. You will definitely spin out and you will learn a lot from those mistakes. Buy your track day insurance!

[ccondo]

I am solo with all orgs some people have me in advanced some intermediate depending o the group or track.

I think the next step for me is going to be PCA school at barber or BMW m school.
Thanks for all the info and advice.

[darkbluemn]

Originally Posted by ccondo

I am solo with all orgs some people have me in advanced some intermediate depending o the group or track.

I think the next step for me is going to be PCA school at barber or BMW m school.
Thanks for all the info and advice.

In those schools(if you book regular ones), you only have about 10 mins ski pad in total. Other time is DSC on. Most students there have no idea of HP drive. I don't think you will learn true car control there. You'd better find some where you can practice 1-2 hour ski pad. I did that with private coach in M school, and that was cool.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by ccondo

I thought that was called IMDS - idiot mustang driver syndrome.

hehe maybe you are too new here not to know about the flying Sakhir Orange M4 ;-)

But back to OT, practice, practice and practice !

[Who's on first]

Scream. Close eyes.

[HighlyMedicated]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There are two types of oversteer possible with a RWD vehicle (or AWD): trailing throttle oversteer which usually happens on corner entry (before the apex) or power oversteer which usually happens on corner exit (after the apex, and not possible with FWD vehicles). Depending on which type of oversteer you are faced with, different throttle inputs will be needed, but both will require countersteering (turning the steering wheel in the same direction the rear is stepping out). When countersteering, it is important not to over do it. Don't turn the wheel too much when countersteering and as soon as the rear comes back in line, progressively bring the steering wheel back straight (the front wheels should always be pointing in the direction you want to head to). Countersteer too much or don't center the steering wheel fast enough and you'll end up with a tank slap (which can be more traitorous than the initial oversteer).

Trailing throttle oversteer is the result of too much weight transferred to the front axle due to too much decelaration. Less weight on the rears wheels means less grip, hence the oversteer. Here slightly more throttle needs to be applied to transfer weight back to the rear wheels to get them to regain traction. Apply too much trottle though and you just go into power oversteer.

Power oversteer is the result of too much power sent to the rear wheels robbing available tire grip for lateral traction (think friction circle). Here slightly less throttle needs to be applied to allow more tire grip to be given back for lateral traction. Lift off the throttle too much and/or too abruptly and you end with trailing throttle oversteer. Staying on the throttle or applying more throttle when in power oversteer will turn the oversteer into a drift, which can be quite cool , but is not a "recovery" per say and is not the fastest way around a corner .

The key here is all about proper modulation. Not too much, not too little.

Great info, thank you...just hope I remember when such a thing happens to me. Just takes practice indeed as others have mentioned. My rear started to wobble at 160mph, luckily didn't lose any traction but kept hands on wheel incase I needed to counter and I lifted off the gas until I slowed to a normal speed. Definitely need to point the wheel to where I want to go or else when grip is regained it doesn't go in the wrong direction! Pedal modulation I need to practice indeed! Other noted its almost natural for us to correct the situation, we don't want to crash so you feel the car acting up and try to correct it!

The video at 135mph woah that steering wheel was going all over the place, thats why banks and slight curves can be deceiving! So much momentum the car wants to lose itself but thankfully its short compared to turns!

And that orange M4 lol, on the streets I tend to brake not add more gas when fishtailing, I know I can't control it so I hope it stops asap!

Great info yall

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by HighlyMedicated

Great info, thank you...just hope I remember when such a thing happens to me. Just takes practice indeed as others have mentioned.

In my experience, the hardest thing to learn consciously is not to lift the gas pedal when you are encountering trailing throttle oversteer. From regular driving, it just seems very counterintuitive to add a little bit more throttle in that situation, to help the rear tires regain traction. Throw in a bit of rain and downhill curves to that situation and you have a real challenge on your hands..

[Darkfiber]

[Mike991M4]

Bondurant used to have a drift school, but no longer offered it when I looked into it. I think if you found a rally school though, that would teach car control. I just wanted to do the drift school for the same reason.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

One excellent way is attending a school at this point, Bondurant, etc.

Honestly, if you have 30 track days of MDM driving/learning, you will have developed very bad habits in every aspect of high performance driving -- steering, braking and throttle. DSC will have been intervening, one-wheel braking, 2-wheel braking, 3-wheel braking, throttle control, etc, continually even when you aren't aware at all -- hence the reason driving the "real car" is necessary to really learn how to drive. DSC will have trained you to make steering, brake and throttle inputs in such a way that will not transfer to driving the real car near its limits.

Baring going to a serious driver's school, run your next event with DSC off, put the car in 4th gear all around the track, focus on smooooothness of inputs, smooooothness....work slowly up to relearning driving at high speeds.

Another suggestion is to attend an Evolution Autocross School. Take the Phase 1 school. You won't be sorry. Outstanding instructors and you'll learn more about car control in one day, in your own car, that you thought possible. Everything you learn will make you a better on-track driver.

This is so true. I have only driven 4-5 HPDE in my F80 - and I always drove MDM. I knew that MDM really holds the car (and learning curve) back - so today (at Autobahn CC just outside of Chicago) I decided to go DSC full off (sunny - 85 degrees F). I figured warm temperatures, hot tire temps and good traction...

So - during class - the two instructors (who were both great) said there are two categories of drivers: 1) those who have spun their car; and 2) those who will. I was in category 2 at the time...

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

This is so true. I have only driven 4-5 HPDE in my F80 - and I always drove MDM. I knew that MDM really holds the car (and learning curve) back - so today (at Autobahn CC just outside of Chicago) I decided to go DSC full off (sunny - 85 degrees F). I figured warm temperatures, hot tire temps and good traction...

So - during class - the two instructors (who were both great) said there are two categories of drivers: 1) those who have spun their car; and 2) those who will. I was in category 2 at the time...

So - needless to say - I go DSC fully off, and the first thing I notice is "wow - this car is FAST without DSC on!!!!" I did a full lap no problem - making sure not to slam the gas pedal down - especially when the wheel is turned.

BUT - coming out of one of the turns - I apparently put down a little too much throttle (while making a right-hand turn - car started to power-oversteer to the right). I apparently (based upon M Laptimer data) immediately lifted off the throttle within a fraction of a second - and then - BAM! The lift-oversteer caused me to go from a somewhat gradual power oversteer rotating clockwise, to a lift-off oversteer going counter-clockwise)!

So - as delighted as I was with how much faster the F8x chassis is without DSC or MDM on (huge difference), I can appreciate what you're saying with the fact that you can develop bad habits with MDM.

I ended up going another 6-7 laps with DSC fully-off after that point. I agree - notwithstanding the spin - time to learn honest car physics/weight transfer - MDM is a glass-ceiling and over time - I'm convinced it will not only limit you - but cause you to become overly-reliant upon the nannies to save your butt!

Only thing is - have to accept the risks of DSC fully-off and make sure you don't lift-oversteer like I did if you start to spin! I

[HighlyMedicated]

Thankfully I do live in socal where the rain doesn't get that bad and not so many hills in this desert oasis! Careful out there guys, 160mph was on the freeway, it ever so slightly curved to the left which I assume made my ass wiggle. Strangly never wiggled in my non
CP car, maybe CP is too stiff if there is such a word. But others did note that the front end of the zcp tends to sit higher than normal? Maybe the springs didn't settle yet from factory....either way I know stupid but just had the tune installed and I didn't even realize I was going that fast, I was trying to catch up to some audi, he had momentum already so didn't get close to him but sure caught up ground quick!

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

So - needless to say - I go DSC fully off, and the first thing I notice is "wow - this car is FAST without DSC on!!!!" I did a full lap no problem - making sure not to slam the gas pedal down - especially when the wheel is turned.

BUT - coming out of one of the turns - I apparently put down a little too much throttle (while making a right-hand turn - car started to power-oversteer to the right). I apparently (based upon M Laptimer data) immediately lifted off the throttle within a fraction of a second - and then - BAM! The lift-oversteer caused me to go from a somewhat gradual power oversteer rotating clockwise, to a lift-off oversteer going counter-clockwise)!

So - as delighted as I was with how much faster the F8x chassis is without DSC or MDM on (huge difference), I can appreciate what you're saying with the fact that you can develop bad habits with MDM.

I ended up going another 6-7 laps with DSC fully-off after that point. I agree - notwithstanding the spin - time to learn honest car physics/weight transfer - MDM is a glass-ceiling and over time - I'm convinced it will not only limit you - but cause you to become overly-reliant upon the nannies to save your butt!

Only thing is - have to accept the risks of DSC fully-off and make sure you don't lift-oversteer like I did if you start to spin! I

Take some time to reflect on the experience and make detailed notes on what you learned about your skills and the car's responses. If you come to some area of inquiry that you can't recall, appears blank in your memory, make note of that too -- sometimes what's hidden from our recall contains the biggest learning treasure. You can use those next time with your instructor to help your next event be even more useful.

I come at this whole DSC issue from the standpoint of having autocrossed and tracked for more than 25 years before there even was DSC. My first two track cars for 10+ years were non-ABS also which creates an even more useful set of internal mental tools once you transition to an ABS car; and then transition to a 4-channel ABS system with DBC; etc, etc. When this stuff hadn't been invented yet, it was very hard not to learn how to drive an actual car.

I've seen so many times over the past 15 years where people "learn how to drive" with nannies enabled, believe they've advanced, and then when trying to drive the actual car, turning off DSC, crash very shortly thereafter. This happens for people who never drive at a track event too. A good friend parted out a totaled E39 M5 he bought from someone who had never turned off DSC and then the very first time he turned it off, he power oversteered getting into the throttle hard in 2nd gear and crashed into a tree. Fortunately the tank-like E39 saved his life.

[bd307]

Start to feel like op is a troll. Continue to read if you are not.

There are differences between "do things right and do the right things." You are doing the right thing by going to these HDPE events, but not doing them right (if you want to improve your game).

Just turn everything off and brave it out. You cannot learn the limits of yourself and your car if they are not scary.

There are plenty of videos about car dynamics. Apply those when you go to track next time.

[GlazierGlaze]

Experienced this first hand this weekend at my first track day. I was pushing very hard in my last session and spun the car heading into North 7 at Autobahn Country Club. Admittedly, I was feeling pretty confident and I'm sure that contributed to it, but really nothing can prepare you for your first off at the track. Everyone says its not a matter of if but when, and that is definitely true.

In my particular case, I was coming into a left hand turn and turned in too early, tried to correct to hit the apex by coming onto the brakes, which naturally shifted all the cars weight forward, back end broke lose and snapped around. I panicked a bit, but managed to get it back somewhat under control with only my front two wheels and rear left off track. In that situation, have to straighten out wheel wheere the car is headed and ease onto the throttle to get the car back under control.

I would go to a good HPDE that provides classroom instruction between class sections, lots of things I learned this past weekend.

[Powerslide]

I would strongly recommend M Laptimer or Harry's Laptimer (or similar product) - I have gone back and re-watched on M Laptimer and GoPro Video (the two were integrated, so you can correlate the data with the video) - I went back and extensively studied the following:

1) First two sessions of the day (30 minutes each - Autobahn CC (full course) near Chicago):

I was getting my best times ever (this was my fourth HPDE driving my own car - first three were with MDM on, Sport + throttle and EDC, Sport steering). As confirmed by M Laptimer data, I was (from a time standpoint at least) "in the groove" - and since conditions were warm, sunny and dry (85F), and my instructor "certified" me to drive by myself, I figured I could turn the MDM off and just be careful not to give it too much throttle on corner exit. My two best laps were at 3:02.04 and 3:02.12 (my previous best times were 3:04.98 and 3:05.07).

2) Third session of the day - DSC Fully Off - Sport + Throttle, EDC and Sport Steering:

I did a total of 7 laps on this session. I was a little nervous at first, knowing that no nannies were on to save me if I made a mistake. I've read plenty of anecdotes of the F8x having the ability to enter a spin very quickly (non-ZCP at least, but not quite as much on ZCP) if you have too much steering angle and power at the same time. For the first lap, I was consciously thinking about this, and did a 3:07.48 lap.

I was amazed at how much the power had been cutting out when in MDM on previous laps - the car undoubtedly accelerates faster under full throttle with MDM off vs. MDM on (I do not have Euro-MDM coded - so standard version 58.3 non-ZCP software). My confidence was building by the second lap - comparing the laptimer data for my fist and second laps, I was ahead of pace on the entire second lap.

Then - it happened on Turn No. 16 (second-to-last right-hander on North Track). I went through the apex just fine. The problem is that literally only a yard or two after passing the apex, I was at 24% throttle going 49mph, the top of the steering wheel was pointed at approximately 2:00. What I didn't realize at the time (but M Laptimer confirms it) is that with the wheel still at 2:00, I almost instantaneously went from 24% to 100% throttle (top of steering wheel meanwhile has not budged - still at 2:00 position). Let's just say that I would not have consciously done this, but I nevertheless did it (subconsciously).

So - I was only on 100% throttle and 2:00 steering for about 1-1.5 seconds, and the car started into a slow rotation to the right (clockwise rotation looking forward). I started to slowly countersteer toward the left (as the rear stepped out to the left - part of a clockwise rotation - BUT - I LIFTED OFF THE THROTTLE AS WELL - went from 100% throttle to 32% almost instantly, which is when the car immediately began a faster spin to the left (counter-clockwise rotation - again, not consciously, but without thinking - it was an automatic reaction). As the car reversed the direction of the spin, I then automatically took my foot off the gas completely (went from 32% throttle to 0% throttle) and I spun out completely in a counterclockwise (toward the left) rotational direction. I came to a complete stop, fortunately with nobody directly behind me and all 4 wheels stayed on the track.

So - what did I learn? After going back and reviewing my "record" laps at 3:02.04 and 3:02.12 (in MDM mode), there were several turns where the exact same conditions existed as for the spin (throttle on/off amount and speed, steering wheel angle, speed, etc.), but I didn't spin - WHY?? BECAUSE MDM WAS MASKING MY MISTAKES!!!

Am I saying everyone should shut it off completely? I'm not qualifited to answer that. For me, I'm nervous to go back to the track - but I know I will again, and I'll probably go back to "novice" lever with an instructor, tell him/her what happened, and try to "relearn" without MDM intervention. I also know that I was trail-braking a little to much, which also could have gotten me into trouble - lots of learning still left to do!

But - the point of my thread - I"m convinced that MDM - had I continued to use it, would have caused me to continue to use and develop bad habits. I don't think I can go back to MDM now - because I'm afraid I will continue these bad habits. I just have to be more careful and cognizant of: 1) power-oversteer; 2) lift oversteer; and 3) trail braking (among other things).

[ccondo]

@Powerslide your story makes me want to keep my m4 in the garage and buy a cheap vette as a track car to learn on.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by ccondo

@Powerslide your story makes me want to keep my m4 in the garage and buy a cheap vette as a track car to learn on.

Vettes aren't any easier to learn on than an M4, that's for sure. In an ideal world, we would all start out tracking Miatas, E30, E36, etc. and the clubs would make us turn off all traction control starting with our very first session. That way you never develop bad habits. I was 'lucky' enough that my very first instructor, when I started out 4-5 years ago, just reached down and turned DSC off for me. I had no idea, barely noticed, what he was doing. E60 M5 was my first track car.

Another thing that's a shame is that there aren't enough of these types of car control events available in many areas. I took advantage of this one a couple of years ago with a drifting club. Best $75 I ever spent, and it really helped some lights go off in my head.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1191553

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by ccondo

@Powerslide your story makes me want to keep my m4 in the garage and buy a cheap vette as a track car to learn on.

Funny you should say that - I saw a C7 spin out right in front of me only an hour before my spin!