DUMB QUESTION: Cliffs notes on switching to E85

[depaulhifi]

1. What should I look out for?
2. How does it impact daily drivability?
3. How does it impact fuel economy (not a huge concern as I drive very conservatively)

My car is a 2018 CS with about 5900 miles on the clock. It’s mostly a garage queen/grocery getter. I've owned it since new and it's never been tracked, never been raced, and I haven’t even used launch control. Yes, yes, I know…

I’m currently running an MHD Stage 2 93 OCT OTS tune, and I would use the MHD flex fuel kit to switch to/from E85.

Current mods on the car

1. MHD Stage 2 93 OCT OTS tune with GTS transmission flash (Burbles turned completely OFF)
2. Eisenmann catless downpipes
3. Active Autowerke equal length resonated midpipe
4. Factory MPE

Future mods (next 1-6 months)

1. E85 (still TBD though)
2. Active Autowerke GESI catted downpipes
3. Valvetronic full titanium equal length exhaust system
4. Pure 800 turbos or Vargas GC+
5. EU5 injectors
6. Crankhub fix with capture
7. MSR front mount intakes
8. Active Autowerke charge cooler with heat exchanger or EOS charge cooler
9. MSR stainless charge pipes (or silicone charge pipes if I go the AA charge cooler route)

Are there any other “supporting mods” I’m missing?
Do I need to worry about clutches at the power levels I could be seeing after all the planned mods?
What about the HPFP?

I'm very much of the "do it once, do it right" mindset, and also a "while you're in there" kinda guy. For example, since you would be crazy not to do the crankhub while doing turbos, doing the crankhub involves pulling the whole front off the car, and while the whole front of the car is off, while you're in there, you might as well slap those front mount intakes in there when you don't have to worry about crap getting in the way. Even though intakes probably don't add any dyno HP and certainly not any butt dyno HP, they sure do look cool (especially color-matched MSR) and they go "whoosh," so it's $2500 foolishly-well spent in my book.

I don’t have a specific HP target in mind, just a significant increase in butt dyno HP. A few months ago I went for a ride in a 6MT car with Pure Turbos and I was hooked. Even with his car being a stick and mine a DCT, his car felt like it would blow the doors off mine. I don’t recall exactly what else he had done to the car apart from EU5 injectors. I know he had stock airboxes, can’t recall if he had upgraded the charge cooler.

The most important thing of all is that I don’t want to do anything to the car that will change the “character” of the car. That is, when all is said and done, it still has to feel like an F80 M3. IMO, swapping to a single turbo is something that would constitute a significant change to the character of the car, so that’s out.

I’m interested in E85 because it seems like you almost have to do it to really appreciate or get the most out of upgraded turbos.

Any help or insight you guys can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[SYT_Shadow]

Cliff notes: don't do it. There is a constant stream of people coming here with blown engines due to e85.

Pure 800 and others of that size have insane lag and will absolutely change the character of the car. To this day I can't understand people putting these giant turbos on... for what?

[depaulhifi]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Cliff notes: don't do it. There is a constant stream of people coming here with blown engines due to e85.

Pure 800 and others of that size have insane lag and will absolutely change the character of the car. To this day I can't understand people putting these giant turbos on... for what?

I thought/heard that Pure 800s were more of a quick spool type turbo rather than a big boost (like Kratos). Vargas always touts their spool over pretty much everything else, so maybe I'll go with them instead.

If E85 is more trouble/risk than it's worth, what sort of power numbers could one expect from a car with upgraded "quick spool" type turbos on pump 93? 600-650 maybe?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by depaulhifi

I thought/heard that Pure 800s were more of a quick spool type turbo rather than a big boost (like Kratos). Vargas always touts their spool over pretty much everything else, so maybe I'll go with them instead.

If E85 is more trouble/risk than it's worth, what sort of power numbers could one expect from a car with upgraded "quick spool" type turbos on pump 93? 600-650 maybe?

Kratos is even bigger, which means even more lag. Pure no longer sells the fast spools.

Quick spool turbos are the full race, for example, 550whp or so on 93.

[McBobby Jr]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

To this day I can't understand people putting these giant turbos on... for what?

More power lol

[McBobby Jr]

Originally Posted by depaulhifi

I thought/heard that Pure 800s were more of a quick spool type turbo rather than a big boost (like Kratos). Vargas always touts their spool over pretty much everything else, so maybe I'll go with them instead.

If E85 is more trouble/risk than it's worth, what sort of power numbers could one expect from a car with upgraded "quick spool" type turbos on pump 93? 600-650 maybe?

Pump 93 (depends on the quality) and also depends with how big you go on the hybrid turbos but getting over 600whp would be challenging without spray or wmi. Single turbo would make it a lot easier if you’re curious since you can up the AR and won’t be restricted by the small runner OEM exhaust manifolds. Also hybrids will change the driving experience or any turbo upgrade for that matter since the top end will be greatly improved but the powerband will be shifted to the right which is a good thing for these cars since having all that torque come in before 3k rpm on stock turbos just makes putting down power an issue with these cars.

[astris]

I run E85 very frequently. I have all the fueling (hpfp, lpfp, EU5), flex sensor, and ID F750 flex filter. Personally, I wouldn’t run E85 without all of this if you’re running bigger turbos.

To me this is as close to dummy proof as you can get with E85. Don’t have to worry about running out of fuel up top, fuel tank debris getting sucked up, and never having to measure or worry about blends. Just pump whatever and drive.

Can you run E85 without all this? Sure. It won’t be as safe and definitely not a set it and forget it setup.

[Oliver Queen]

Running Pure Stage 2+ turbos with full bolt-ons, stock fueling system on 93 pump probably making around 600whp with F80Paul's custom tune (never dyno'd but looked at similar set ups on the Pure Stage 2 thread), car is fun around town and pulls hard all the way through in the higher revs; drivability feels great, fuel economy sucks but well worth it lol

[-Eidos]

Bend Calibration fuel filter will add longevity to your injectors. Also don't forget to cycle in pump gas every so often.

https://www.bendcalibration.com/shop...ilter-only-kit

[Schemxr]

1.)Bmw one step colder plugs that are meant for ethanol fuels, can be found on fcpeuro.

2.) determine if you want a flex fuel setup, i would recommend if you’re unfamiliar with mixing e85 on the fly.

3.) top lube for your e85, it helps make sure your injectors will stay clean.

4.) your tunerr will tell you what to gap your plugs to

5.) after every couple of tank fills of e85, make sure to switch over to 93 or 91 just to clean through your fuel system. do NOT leave e85 in your car for extended period of time if you’re not driving.

s55’s love E85, it’s up to the user to make sure you do proper calculations and preventive maintenance to prevent any problems.

[Hotflare]

Flex fuel sensor (bend calibration has the best and only kit for this platform that has a filter) , step colder plugs and upgrade your CH. On stock turbos, flex fuel e50 will grant you 540ish whp with a 93 mix. You should be plenty happy between 530 to 550whp for a long while, safely. Stock turbos, of course.

Run hot shot every so often, and a tank of just pure 91/93 every 4 to 5 fill ups.

[depaulhifi]

Originally Posted by McBobby Jr

Pump 93 (depends on the quality) and also depends with how big you go on the hybrid turbos but getting over 600whp would be challenging without spray or wmi. Single turbo would make it a lot easier if you’re curious since you can up the AR and won’t be restricted by the small runner OEM exhaust manifolds. Also hybrids will change the driving experience or any turbo upgrade for that matter since the top end will be greatly improved but the powerband will be shifted to the right which is a good thing for these cars since having all that torque come in before 3k rpm on stock turbos just makes putting down power an issue with these cars.

Good call out on the fuel quality. I exclusively run Shell V-Power. I started this thread because I'm doing turbos soon, it seems like getting the most out of them requires E85 or some level of ethanol blend, and I just found out there's a Mobil station about 10 blocks away that has E85.

You're gonna have to go easy on me with the acronyms. I know WMI is water methanol injection and it came stock on the M4 GTS, but I don't know what purpose it serves. I hear "spray" and I think nitrous lol.

Now that you mention it, moving the powerband to the right a bit might not be such a bad thing. The stock turbos spool up around 2500 RPM. Where would something like Vargas GC+ spool up? 3000, 3500?

You say 600 HP would be difficult on hybrid turbos without spray or WMI. What would happen if I were to install something like Vargas GC+ (or heck, even monster turbos like Kratos) and not do spray or WMI? Am I just leaving some/a lot of power on the table, or am I putting the engine at risk?

[Beyond_Ill]

Originally Posted by depaulhifi

Good call out on the fuel quality. I exclusively run Shell V-Power. I started this thread because I'm doing turbos soon, it seems like getting the most out of them requires E85 or some level of ethanol blend, and I just found out there's a Mobil station about 10 blocks away that has E85.

You're gonna have to go easy on me with the acronyms. I know WMI is water methanol injection and it came stock on the M4 GTS, but I don't know what purpose it serves. I hear "spray" and I think nitrous lol.

Now that you mention it, moving the powerband to the right a bit might not be such a bad thing. The stock turbos spool up around 2500 RPM. Where would something like Vargas GC+ spool up? 3000, 3500?

You say 600 HP would be difficult on hybrid turbos without spray or WMI. What would happen if I were to install something like Vargas GC+ (or heck, even monster turbos like Kratos) and not do spray or WMI? Am I just leaving some/a lot of power on the table, or am I putting the engine at risk?

The M4 GTS has water injection but it was only distilled water, no meth. It was evenly distributed through the intake manifold from three points in between each runner. Depending on your mixture water/meth can be used for cooling and/or fueling. Meth has a high latent heat of evaporation basically meaning that's it's efficient at pulling heat out of the air. Ethanol does too but not to the same degree as meth. When you're "spraying" meth you're using it as a secondary fuel source, a port injection of sorts but on it's own supply. You can only extract so much out of a turbo on pump gas before you become octane limited and risk destination. Spraying meth, nitrous, or running E85 alleviates this physical limitation.

[McBobby Jr]

So depending on your turbo setup, you may or may not need E85 to hit your goal. If you were able to hit 600whp on 93 octane, would you still even be interested in using E85 or just to have a tune for it to make 700+whp and use it whenever? And yea there’s lots of acronyms but WMI is different from “spray” and the M4 GTS water injection is a pretty cool system. Now that you bring it up, someone with a M4 GTS did make over 600whp on pump 93 although I’m not sure if he did incorporate the use of the OE water injection system. JustAnothaM4 . For the GC turbos, from what I remember they do spool pretty good around 3.5k-4K rpm full torque would be in already. And as for the bigger turbos, leaving power on the table depends on how you look at it, in your car if you went after some bigger turbos it would be for a different purpose as to scale back on back pressure and pushing the power band to the right to make more power on pump gas rather than make all the power which also some people are after. Now for putting the engine at risk it all depends how far you push the turbo in which case from the knock resistance you’ll be limited to with any turbo on pump 93 you won’t be able to put any serious stress on your engine. You’d need a lot of torque and timing to do so which won’t happen on pump 93.

[JustAnothaM4]

Originally Posted by McBobby Jr

So depending on your turbo setup, you may or may not need E85 to hit your goal. If you were able to hit 600whp on 93 octane, would you still even be interested in using E85 or just to have a tune for it to make 700+whp and use it whenever? And yea there’s lots of acronyms but WMI is different from “spray” and the M4 GTS water injection is a pretty cool system. Now that you bring it up, someone with a M4 GTS did make over 600whp on pump 93 although I’m not sure if he did incorporate the use of the OE water injection system. JustAnothaM4 . For the GC turbos, from what I remember they do spool pretty good around 3.5k-4K rpm full torque would be in already. And as for the bigger turbos, leaving power on the table depends on how you look at it, in your car if you went after some bigger turbos it would be for a different purpose as to scale back on back pressure and pushing the power band to the right to make more power on pump gas rather than make all the power which also some people are after. Now for putting the engine at risk it all depends how far you push the turbo in which case from the knock resistance you’ll be limited to with any turbo on pump 93 you won’t be able to put any serious stress on your engine. You’d need a lot of torque and timing to do so which won’t happen on pump 93.

Yes, I’m making 640rwhp and 550ftlbs tq while incorporating the factory water injection system on my GTS on 93 pump gas. This is all done with an upgraded DI system and keeping it very safe. Boost is around 27-28lbs on a Borg Warner EFR8474 single turbo with a true equal length manifold. Tune is specifically setup for road racing and keeping it linear.

Below is my dyno graph comparing 93 to e60. I’m running a flex fuel setup and tune that automatically adjusts depending on fuel levels.

[b_w.]

Originally Posted by JustAnothaM4

Yes, I’m making 640rwhp and 550ftlbs tq while incorporating the factory water injection system on my GTS on 93 pump gas. This is all done with an upgraded DI system and keeping it very safe. Boost is around 27-28lbs on a Borg Warner EFR8474 single turbo with a true equal length manifold. Tune is specifically setup for road racing and keeping it linear.

Below is my dyno graph comparing 93 to e60. I’m running a flex fuel setup and tune that automatically adjusts depending on fuel levels.

Did you tune for both water injection on and off? Don't know enough about how the GTs works. Curious how your setup will do on just 93? I am waiting for ups to drop off the same kit today but will be running water in the j pipe for cooling only and no additional tuning.

[JustAnothaM4]

Originally Posted by b_w.

Did you tune for both water injection on and off? Don't know enough about how the GTs works. Curious how your setup will do on just 93? I am waiting for ups to drop off the same kit today but will be running water in the j pipe for cooling only and no additional tuning.

The factory GTS water injection system is always on. Once the target 5000 RPM is reached and wide open throttle then the water starts spraying.

I just posted above how my setup does on 93 octane. I would expect 50hp (give or take a few hp) less for all standard f8x platforms without factory GTS water injection to assist with cooling.