Poor throttle response Heel & Toe

[RingMeister01]

I had the pleasure of sampling a 6MT F80 with 500 miles on the clock. I drove my friend's M3 from Long Island to Pound Ridge NY to fit a JB4 by our master tech Prime Performance. On the way up and back I did sample some short WOT 4th gear pulls (approved by my friend) to experience the before/after of the JB4.

Having the settings on Sport Plus I heel n toed through every downshift, and aggravatingly I noticed the lack of throttle response to get the revs high enough while releasing the clutch to match revs with output shaft speeds. I literally at times jabbed the throttle to the floor to get it to react. It was the same after the JB4.

I would comment that the throttle response Isn't at all lazy during in gear driving. I initially thought it could be a turbo characteristic but my 996 GT2 was reactive on short blips of the throttle. Anyone else experience this? What gives?

[8600RPM]

Sport plus car auto Rev matches so not possible to do what you wanted. Car doing it for you

[shortseller]

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Sport plus car auto Rev matches so not possible to do what you wanted. Car doing it for you

Rev match doesn't happen in sport +.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by shortseller

Rev match doesn't happen in sport +.

I read the OP prior to heading back to work from lunch and had no issues with rev matching in sport plus, but to each their own.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

I had the pleasure of sampling a 6MT F80 with 500 miles on the clock. I drove my friend's M3 from Long Island to Pound Ridge NY to fit a JB4 by our master tech Prime Performance. On the way up and back I did sample some short WOT 4th gear pulls (approved by my friend) to experience the before/after of the JB4.

Having the settings on Sport Plus I heel n toed through every downshift, and aggravatingly I noticed the lack of throttle response to get the revs high enough while releasing the clutch to match revs with output shaft speeds. I literally at times jabbed the throttle to the floor to get it to react. It was the same after the JB4.

I would comment that the throttle response Isn't at all lazy during in gear driving. I initially thought it could be a turbo characteristic but my 996 GT2 was reactive on short blips of the throttle. Anyone else experience this? What gives?

Sorry, do you mean you were manually rev matching where I bolded your text? I'm pretty sure you are very incorrectly using the terminology "Heel & Toe" here, which actually means means braking with your right heel while applying throttle with your right toe (OR right heel on the accelerator, right toe on the brake depending on the layout of the pedals in the car). Generally this is done in a situation where you want to enter a corner as you downshift so you are braking while matching the engine speed. From your post it sounds as if you were just matching revs, not "Heel and Toe"-ing as you said. . . In fact, during true Heel and Toe situations if you pin the throttle to the floor you're very VERY likely to end up off the road or in a wall. Heel and Toe is about throttle modulation, the LAST thing you want to do is pin the throttle in a torque monster like the m3/m4 as you enter a curve. There is almost no reason why if you're traveling in a straight line that there is any benefit to heel to toe as the brakes work better then the engine for slowing the car down in an emergency situation, and if you're not anticipating a turn then you can gradually shift and engine brake.

Forgive me if I read your OP wrong, but it certainly sounds as if you were just "Rev Matching" and not "Heel and Toe"-ing the car which is a much more precise technique.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by shortseller

Rev match doesn't happen in sport +.

Correct.

[Oakleyguy]

I haven't had any issues manually rev matching or heel toeing in Sport+. That said, I usually give a good stab to the throttle for either.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Sorry, do you mean you were manually rev matching where I bolded your text? I'm pretty sure you are very incorrectly using the terminology "Heel & Toe" here, which actually means means braking with your right heel while applying throttle with your right toe (OR right heel on the accelerator, right toe on the brake depending on the layout of the pedals in the car). Generally this is done in a situation where you want to enter a corner as you downshift so you are braking while matching the engine speed. From your post it sounds as if you were just matching revs, not "Heel and Toe"-ing as you said. . . In fact, during true Heel and Toe situations if you pin the throttle to the floor you're very VERY likely to end up off the road or in a wall. Heel and Toe is about throttle modulation, the LAST thing you want to do is pin the throttle in a torque monster like the m3/m4 as you enter a curve. There is almost no reason why if you're traveling in a straight line that there is any benefit to heel to toe as the brakes work better then the engine for slowing the car down in an emergency situation, and if you're not anticipating a turn then you can gradually shift and engine brake.

Forgive me if I read your OP wrong, but it certainly sounds as if you were just "Rev Matching" and not "Heel and Toe"-ing the car which is a much more precise technique.

Heel-toe is for downshifting while braking, and of course you rev match just like any downshift.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by Oakleyguy

I haven't had any issues manually rev matching or heel toeing in Sport+. That said, I usually give a good stab to the throttle for either.

Seems like it wouldn't respond unless I stabbed DEEP. More seat time is in order.

I did switch my order from DCT to 6MT today

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Sorry, do you mean you were manually rev matching where I bolded your text? I'm pretty sure you are very incorrectly using the terminology "Heel & Toe" here, which actually means means braking with your right heel while applying throttle with your right toe (OR right heel on the accelerator, right toe on the brake depending on the layout of the pedals in the car). Generally this is done in a situation where you want to enter a corner as you downshift so you are braking while matching the engine speed. From your post it sounds as if you were just matching revs, not "Heel and Toe"-ing as you said. . . In fact, during true Heel and Toe situations if you pin the throttle to the floor you're very VERY likely to end up off the road or in a wall. Heel and Toe is about throttle modulation, the LAST thing you want to do is pin the throttle in a torque monster like the m3/m4 as you enter a curve. There is almost no reason why if you're traveling in a straight line that there is any benefit to heel to toe as the brakes work better then the engine for slowing the car down in an emergency situation, and if you're not anticipating a turn then you can gradually shift and engine brake.

Forgive me if I read your OP wrong, but it certainly sounds as if you were just "Rev Matching" and not "Heel and Toe"-ing the car which is a much more precise technique.

Oh dude waaaayy off, lol

Rev match meaning, matching input and output shaft speeds. Heel n toe is just doing that while braking.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I read the OP prior to heading back to work from lunch and had no issues with rev matching in sport plus, but to each their own.

Having lead feet does help

[BMWJ]

Haven't driven F8x in MT yet, but you probably just have to get used to it. On my e9x M3 the throttle was super sensitive and it was easy, now I'm driving 335is and it's a completely different feel and requires much more stab on the throttle. However after getting used to it, it's not a problem to rev-match.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by BMWJ

Haven't driven F8x in MT yet, but you probably just have to get used to it. On my e9x M3 the throttle was super sensitive and it was easy, now I'm driving 335is and it's a completely different feel and requires much more stab on the throttle. However after getting used to it, it's not a problem to rev-match.

Thank you for the intelligent reply sir. That's exactly what I thought. I was thrown off at the moment but I think getting used to this throttle is acceptable. My E36 and GT3 are/were very sensitive.

I'm a little paranoid making the last minute switch to 6MT

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Oh dude waaaayy off, lol

Rev match meaning, matching input and output shaft speeds. Heel n toe is just doing that while braking.

He doesn't appear to be way off....your thread title is about heel/toe shifting, but your comments are entirely about rev matching. Specifically you said, "Having the settings on Sport Plus I heel n toed through every downshift, and aggravatingly I noticed the lack of throttle response to get the revs high enough while releasing the clutch to match revs with output shaft speeds"

His comment was just clarifying that your comments indicated you were talking about a lack of throttle response while trying to rev-match downshift - not specifically about heel/toe action.

FYI, I find my throttle very insensitive between shifts. Way less sensitive than I expect, consistently. And oddly far less sensitive to input than, say, my e39 m5 which was less rev happy and had a very heavy flywheel.

On throttle is great.

My guess is for some reason there is a programming element here in the throttle that changes throttle sensitivity when in gear vs in between gears. I have zero idea why that would be, but I've noticed the exact same thing as you.

[RingMeister01]

Joe yes you are correct about my post. Unfortunately I do not have the time to construct my threads and comments as well and as clear as I would like.

On topic, I share the same thoughts as you do. Out of gear the throttle response is insensitive and its most likely caused by a different throttle setting in the ECU. It's very noticeable but with time can be worked around.

Thank you gents, I'm not crazy.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

Joe yes you are correct about my post. Unfortunately I do not have the time to construct my threads and comments as well and as clear as I would like.

On topic, I share the same thoughts as you do. Out of gear the throttle response is insensitive and its most likely caused by a different throttle setting in the ECU. It's very noticeable but with time can be worked around.

Thank you gents, I'm not crazy.

Haha I thought I was going crazy too after your response. . . I didn't mean to belittle you or anything its just that what you actually described wasn't heal & toe! No hard feelings, and Joe thanks for making me feel sane.

[JBiddy]

It takes a little getting used to lol. I had the same issue when I first got mine. Nothing a little more time in that hot seat won't fix

[Sal@AUTOcouture]

Sprint Booster is the solution. Drive mine next time you're around...you'll see the light

[solstice]

If your ego allows it keeping the throttle in Sport with auto blips is IMO great but I never really seen heel toeing as such a big deal and I'm happy to embrace the auto blip. The things that are important to me with an MT are still there. My heel toeing might start to get rusty down the line but I can live with that since I think the auto blip is here to stay.

That said, I found it no harder to adapt to the throttle sesitivity than the clutch engagement. They go hand in hand and once you are used to it, it's fine IMO.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by solstice

If your ego allows it keeping the throttle in Sport with auto blips is IMO great but I never really seen heel toeing as such a big deal and I'm happy to embrace the auto blip. The things that are important to me with an MT are still there. My heel toeing might start to get rusty down the line but I can live with that since I think the auto blip is here to stay.

That said, I found it no harder to adapt to the throttle sesitivity than the clutch engagement. They go hand in hand and once you are used to it, it's fine IMO.

im not embarrassed to say I used it on track and it was awesome, and no doubt made me quicker.

I can rev match on the street easily, as most of us can im sure, and in certain situations decently heel/toe, but imo the rev match is cool tech and I use it. I also throw it in sport plus when I feel like rev matching, but definitely use both settings

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by Sal@AUTOcouture

Sprint Booster is the solution. Drive mine next time you're around...you'll see the light

Thhiiissssss. Fucking genius Sal!!

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by solstice

If your ego allows it keeping the throttle in Sport with auto blips is IMO great but I never really seen heel toeing as such a big deal and I'm happy to embrace the auto blip. The things that are important to me with an MT are still there. My heel toeing might start to get rusty down the line but I can live with that since I think the auto blip is here to stay.

That said, I found it no harder to adapt to the throttle sesitivity than the clutch engagement. They go hand in hand and once you are used to it, it's fine IMO.

"It's fine" doesn't cut it for me on a $90,000 car bud. Auto blip can certainly do it better than I can but I chose the manual for the increased driver involvement and fun, which includes (and cannot be eliminated) rev match on your own. If I wanted an automated system I'd have gone with the faster DCT.