E85 and Injectors stuck open/ is it worth it?

[Msm1984]

Hey everyone

I've had a custom e85 tune from cary now for a while now and while the tune is awesome I had all of my injectors get stuck open which was a really expensive day. I tested my e85 100% of the time and would use ethanol conditioner + cycle back to 93 ever 2k miles MAX. Every single injector still failed and got stuck open. I know plenty of people who had this same thing happen.

My question is who else has this happened to? Is it even worth running E85? When you need to change the oil every 3k and plugs like every 6k when you only run it everyone once and a while and you can still have injectors stuck open and potentially do some serious damage.

The maintenance alone to run E if you drive a lot isn't only expensive but it is annoying as shit. Doesn't it make more sense to just bite the bullet and spend a couple grand to run vargas at 93 with no issues?

I have this tune and want to use it but before running it again would like to here some other opinions. Thinking of just going turbos for peace of mind

[MisterF80M3]

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[lookitsapples]

Definitely interested to hear responses, I'm currently running e30 right now as I'm assuming with the 70% of gasoline I don't have to deal with these complications of cycling full 91 octane or stuck injectors

[HyeM3]

I remember seeing someone talk about how they run F10 M5 injectors because supposedly they hold up pretty well on E85. Maybe some people can chime in and shed some light on this?

[E92inSG]

I hope I’m not infringing on any copyright but Bend Calibration sent me this information regarding the necessity of using a good fuel filter whenever using ethanol:

E85 considerations:
When first switching to E85, all the crap in your gas tank gets picked up. E85 isn’t a dirty fuel, but it is an alcohol so it will clean up all the debris in the bottom of your tank and pump it through your fuel system! It will require frequent changes at first then get on a regular 1 year/10k mile schedule. The older your car is, the more years of debris in your tank.
Before switching to E85, flow test injectors if not new, and replace fuel filter and strainer
First tank of E85, change fuel filter
1 month or 500 miles, change filter
After first 6 months or 3000 miles, change filter, flow test injectors
Fuel filter every 6 months after that (this is now your normal interval)
Send injectors to get cleaned every year regardless of miles
Run pump gasoline every 3-5 tanks. This will remove the black tar-like gum that builds up on injectors
ID F750 fuel filter is the best filter.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

I hope I’m not infringing on any copyright but Bend Calibration sent me this information regarding the necessity of using a good fuel filter whenever using ethanol:

That is a shit ton of work lol

[E92inSG]

Yuuuuuuup

Bend Calibration Injector Cleaning Requirement
Because we tune a large volume of cars, and have been doing so for 15+ years, we have a large data sample size to reference. This is the difference between knowing a person who ran a car a certain way, and calibrating for thousands of cars. This sample size allows us to see patterns, and these patterns allow us to develop methods to improve our program and your cars.
One of the patterns we are seeing is that injectors are clogging frequently with today’s fuel, and many of today’s cars are not running an adequate fuel filter, and some run no filter at all! Today’s fuel contains ethanol, and even a small amount is causing clogged or damaged injectors. If you run E85, or convert to E85, the problem is even more severe.
The other pattern we see is that clients who are willing to treat their fuel system right, care about their cars! Because we care about our work and your car, we want your car to run the best it can. Our clients and new clients are willing to provide a recent flow sheet before tuning, and follow the process that protects their engine.
Solution
Luckily, this is totally fixable. We have a program to prevent this from happening:
Follow our procedure for switching to E85 for the first time
Use the ID F750 fuel filter (we offer this at a discount)
Run a tank of pump fuel every 3-5 tanks of ethanol
Have your injectors cleaned once a year
If the car sits more than a week, it needs to sit with regular gas run through the system
If the car sits with anything more than 10% ethanol for more than a week, pull the injectors and clean them
The above list is really only 3 items to do: use the right fuel filter, run pump every few tanks, and have injectors cleaned once a year. It’s not a big deal, and a small price to pay for the massive power and knock resistance/safety that ethanol has to offer.
Case studies:
Here are some pictures and screenshots of injectors, melted pistons as a direct result of lack of fuel system maintenance. This is not to discourage you to run E85. We love E85 and have been tuning it since 2006! However, it requires the correct maintenance.

[E92inSG]

You can do things one way, or do it the right way

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

Yuuuuuuup

I'm thinking what makes the most sense is to run e85 only on track days or a tank over the weekend.

During the week if ur commuting no reason to be driving running E while in comfort mode. Today i went to e85 which will last me saturday and sunday where i will drive hard and have fun then flash back to 93 for the week. Prob will run 3-4 tanks of 93 again and do it once a month or so. I think like this it shouldn't be an issue. If I still have an issue this time I'll never run e85 again.

[E92inSG]

I think the main reasoning behind clogged injectors is that the ethanol will loosen up all the crap at the bottom of your fuel tank. It’s not switching back to 93 that’s causing the problem. That helps with degradation of fuel lines etc.

What I’m getting from the info is the importance of running a proper fuel filter to avoid clogging

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

I think the main reasoning behind clogged injectors is that the ethanol will loosen up all the crap at the bottom of your fuel tank. It’s not switching back to 93 that’s causing the problem. That helps with degradation of fuel lines etc.

What I’m getting from the info is the importance of running a proper fuel filter to avoid clogging

Would maybe explain why when i had my injectors fail i was driving extremely hard and had little e85 left in the tank

[Soul Coughing]

Wow, gotta pay to play! Where do people put this filter? In the engine bay?

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by lookitsapples

Definitely interested to hear responses, I'm currently running e30 right now as I'm assuming with the 70% of gasoline I don't have to deal with these complications of cycling full 91 octane or stuck injectors

Been running e30 over a year now, and same. The 93/91 lubricates the injectors and we don't need to worry.

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

I think the main reasoning behind clogged injectors is that the ethanol will loosen up all the crap at the bottom of your fuel tank. It's not switching back to 93 that's causing the problem. That helps with degradation of fuel lines etc.

What I'm getting from the info is the importance of running a proper fuel filter to avoid clogging

They don't get clogged, they get stuck. They get stuck because they get dried out. Ethanol is not oil based, so it doesn't lubricate; that's why people run a conditioner every tank or every other tank—lubrication purposes.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by nbennettksu

They don't get clogged, they get stuck. They get stuck because they get dried out. Ethanol is not oil based, so it doesn't lubricate; that's why people run a conditioner every tank or every other tank—lubrication purposes.

I ran lucas conditioner every tank and got them stuck open

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

I ran lucas conditioner every tank and got them stuck open

Yep, it happens. Also happens with gas. It's a mechanical component, though much more likely running corn.

[Humdizzle]

what everyone else said. ethanol probably loosened some junk in your fuel system most likely.

I did flex fuel in my GTR and had no injector issues. they were upgraded though, 1100cc. Ran E in the summer, spring, fall. and 93 in the winter.

[bsmf8x]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

That is a shit ton of work lol

You gotta really love your extra 70ish whp to be doing all this lol.

[jpy1980]

Sounds cheaper to just replace the fuel tank and injectors when making the move to E

Is there a way to manually clean your fuel tank?

[Rawimage]

How common is the injector getting stuck open when running e85?

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Rawimage

How common is the injector getting stuck open when running e85?

Really hard to quantify. Now that i have the bm3 beta where i can use the ethernet to lightning cable with my iphone instead of a laptop and can change maps on the fly i'll just run a tank of E85 once every like 5 tanks of 93. Really shouldn't be an issue.

[lookitsapples]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

Really hard to quantify. Now that i have the bm3 beta where i can use the ethernet to lightning cable with my iphone instead of a laptop and can change maps on the fly i'll just run a tank of E85 once every like 5 tanks of 93. Really shouldn't be an issue.

Are you still going to stick with your oil change and spark plug change schedule doing that? I figure with e85 it should 5k oil changes and 15k spark plug changes intervals?